Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine Forum

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keg411

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by keg411 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:25 pm

jarofsoup wrote:I have heard that being allowed to telework at your firm is a major improvement of quality of life. I don't mean working the entire day at home, but being able to put in weekends and some of the late night time in at the house.
You can do this at pretty much every firm. Just get the right home setup and you're in good shape.

And FYI, you're (probably) not making it to 2,000 billable hours if you're working the hypothetical 10-8 every day. Mostly because as a junior, you're going to have non-billable crap that eats up your time too. Pro bono is kind of fun because at least you're learning how to do stuff... but wait until you have to cite check or do research for some random newsletter or article or book chapter or something else equally terrible*. Then you'll realize that you ended up working 10-8, but only 4 of those hours will end up being billable.

*Do transactional people get stuck with this type of stuff too? If not, I'm jealous.

ETA: But seriously, everything really does depend on firm, practice group, whether the group is busy or dead, who you're working for, what your firm's bonus structure is like, and a ton number of other factors that you're not going to have no idea about until you start actually working (and not as a SA).
Last edited by keg411 on Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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quakeroats

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by quakeroats » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:33 pm

thesealocust wrote:2nd year associate here:

The problem is that you're plugging yourself in to the most insane service industry the world has ever produced. It's also a profession that is built on a model of churning through bright and ambitious young people. Nothing about it tries to be sustainable or reasonable - ever.

On the one hand, there ARE whiners and there ARE grinders. There are people who will have 4 hours worth of work and spend 12 hours on it and ask for more work and complain the whole way. Not every day is a crisis, even though some people manufacture them for themselves.

On the other hand, when your deal comes in, Congress votes on a rule affecting your clients, or the case is about to go to trial, shit is going to get real and you are going to get tired.

When it's your turn, believe me, it's not going to be a choice between eating dinner at the desk + perfection and leaving at 6:30 and getting an A-. It's going to be a choice between working in a frenzy until midnight and hoping you don't royally fuck it up because of how tired you are. It drives people crazy and the hours can be fucking terrible as a result.
About halfway through my first year as an associate and so far things have been great. I get plenty of sleep, the work's enjoyable, and I have more down time than I really need. If you’d like to have a similar experience, there’s exactly one thing you can do to maximize your chance:

Stay as far away from large practice groups as you can. Firms generally send most incoming associates to their biggest groups. You should avoid this. Large groups are structured in such a way that they have a lot of work for juniors to do. They also have a lot of work for midlevels and seniors, almost always with a firm hierarchy of who does what. With traditional billing this is fantastic from the standpoint of an owner. To oversimplify, the more people you can staff on a deal or a litigation, the more money you'll make. While that's great for the owner, it's usually terrible for you, the junior. The only thing left for you is what everyone up the chain finds too uninteresting and time consuming. Generally there’s less client sensitivity to bigger bills here than other practices, so you can count on as much boring, time consuming work as the client is willing to pay for. And not only will you be spending tons of time reading through boring doc review or diligence, seeing how fast you can circle numbers in SEC filings, etc. you won’t be learning much of anything, particularly compared with your peers who made it into niche groups. The structure of big groups all but guarantees that only the least interesting, lowest value work reaches your desk. But even worse than all that, the hierarchy of a big group means you’ll be dealing mostly with other associates, usually fellow juniors or midlevels who have little of value to impart to you. Working in a small group maximizes your opportunity to deal only with partners and the occasional senior. And when you report directly to a partner, there’s only so much you can really be expected to do. It’s counterintuitive, but the combination of small group work and a lack of hierarchy makes for less overall work, not more. Even with a small group, you’ll still have many of the pressures of big firm life. Assignments will still need to be done with little notice, and there will be the occasional late night (a few times a quarter rather than a few times a week). But the real benefit is you’ll spend your time learning rather than grinding away on another 200 contracts that need to be summarized in the next 24 hours.

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El Pollito

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by El Pollito » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:37 pm

Oh, it's masturbatory anecdata o'clock!

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by 09042014 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:50 pm

thesealocust wrote:2nd year associate here:

The problem is that you're plugging yourself in to the most insane service industry the world has ever produced. It's also a profession that is built on a model of churning through bright and ambitious young people. Nothing about it tries to be sustainable or reasonable - ever.

On the one hand, there ARE whiners and there ARE grinders. There are people who will have 4 hours worth of work and spend 12 hours on it and ask for more work and complain the whole way. Not every day is a crisis, even though some people manufacture them for themselves.

On the other hand, when your deal comes in, Congress votes on a rule affecting your clients, or the case is about to go to trial, shit is going to get real and you are going to get tired.

When it's your turn, believe me, it's not going to be a choice between eating dinner at the desk + perfection and leaving at 6:30 and getting an A-. It's going to be a choice between working in a frenzy until midnight and hoping you don't royally fuck it up because of how tired you are. It drives people crazy and the hours can be fucking terrible as a result.
As always The Seal'oCaust is right. Though you might be a little too top tier NYC firm biased in this response, but it's basically the same for us flyover, VaulTTT 100 shitigators. Sure, nobody is going to yell if I only bill 1850, and nobody in practice group billed over 2100 last year. But a huge factor in that is just that the work isn't there all the time.

Our firms don't get to pick and choose clients. Our partners fight for the work. There are weeks where I got literally nothing to do. I've tried to be strategic about it and I've got a pro bono case to fill in gaps, but this week I'm slammed but I now I gotta make sure a Salvadorian kid signs up for high school so he doesn't get kicked out of murica.

I'm still a rookie so I don't know shit. I don't even know what I don't know. But I think one factor at firms were billing a full day is hard, is to bill correctly. Don't cut your hours or underestimate. Gotta take those hours while they are hot.

People who cut off an hour of two because "they weren't focused" as assfucking themselves and their firm.

But here I am, wishing I were drinking cockwine and doc reviewing international law. SO PRESTUGOIUS

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rpupkin

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by rpupkin » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:11 am

quakeroats wrote: About halfway through my first year as an associate and so far things have been great. I get plenty of sleep, the work's enjoyable, and I have more down time than I really need. If you’d like to have a similar experience, there’s exactly one thing you can do to maximize your chance:

Stay as far away from large practice groups as you can.
I'm glad things have worked out for you so far at your firm. I'm not sure, however, that your advice is generally applicable. I've seen it go both ways. At my friend's firm (he's a first year), his "large practice group" is so overstaffed that many of the first- and second-years in the group don't have much to do. He goes home at 5 o'clock most days, and he got to take two weeks of vacation at Christmas.

At my firm, one of the small practice groups is absolutely slammed because they're trying to prepare for a trial and a very complicated hearing at the same time. Even though they're pulling in people from other groups to help where feasible, the young associates in that practice group look like zombies. One of my friends in that group has not had a day off since the second week of January.

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El Pollito

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by El Pollito » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:15 am

That's a really long way for you guys to say "it depends." It's almost like you enjoy irrelevant overshares.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by thesealocust » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:18 am

Another way to make your life good is incompetence. Fuck up a few things and all of the sudden you'll have fewer emergencies to handle because nobody will trust you, and you'll earn the same salary as your peers but like twice as much money per hour.

I didn't really believe it until I saw a new crop of first years come in. It was shocking how quickly some got slammed and some had breezy lifestyles just based on who picked up on things and earned trust. Of course in busy groups there will be enough work to break everybody's back and in slow groups even hyper-competent gunner machines will run out of work, so it's hardly a sure thing.

But IMO, TCR to extracting maximum value in biglaw is strategic incompetence.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by rpupkin » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:19 am

El Pollito wrote:That's a really long way for you guys to say "it depends." It's almost like you enjoy irrelevant overshares.
Exactly. I think it's dangerous to make generalized suggestions--based on limited experience in a single office of a single firm--about what new associates should do in order to maximize their quality of life in the world of big law.

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quakeroats

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by quakeroats » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:22 am

rpupkin wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
About halfway through my first year as an associate and so far things have been great. I get plenty of sleep, the work's enjoyable, and I have more down time than I really need. If you’d like to have a similar experience, there’s exactly one thing you can do to maximize your chance:

Stay as far away from large practice groups as you can.
I'm glad things have worked out for you so far at your firm. I'm not sure, however, that your advice is generally applicable. I've seen it go both ways. At my friend's firm (he's a first year), his "large practice group" is so overstaffed that many of the first- and second-years in the group don't have much to do. He goes home at 5 o'clock most days, and he got to take two weeks of vacation at Christmas.

At my firm, one of the small practice groups is absolutely slammed because they're trying to prepare for a trial and a very complicated hearing at the same time. Even though they're pulling in people from other groups to help where feasible, the young associates in that practice group look like zombies. One of my friends in that group has not had a day off since the second week of January.
You raise some good points, although I'd probably throw almost all litigation at big firms in New York in the large group box. Doc review needs to be done for groups of 10 or 200.

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rpupkin

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by rpupkin » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:23 am

thesealocust wrote:Another way to make your life good is incompetence. Fuck up a few things and all of the sudden you'll have fewer emergencies to handle because nobody will trust you, and you'll earn the same salary as your peers but like twice as much money per hour.

I didn't really believe it until I saw a new crop of first years come in. It was shocking how quickly some got slammed and some had breezy lifestyles just based on who picked up on things and earned trust. Of course in busy groups there will be enough work to break everybody's back and in slow groups even hyper-competent gunner machines will run out of work, so it's hardly a sure thing.

But IMO, TCR to extracting maximum value in biglaw is strategic incompetence.
That rings true. I'm curious: based on what you've seen, how long can those with the "breezy lifestyles" hang on with your firm before they're encouraged (or forced) to explore their exit options?

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by thesealocust » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:28 am

rpupkin wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Another way to make your life good is incompetence. Fuck up a few things and all of the sudden you'll have fewer emergencies to handle because nobody will trust you, and you'll earn the same salary as your peers but like twice as much money per hour.

I didn't really believe it until I saw a new crop of first years come in. It was shocking how quickly some got slammed and some had breezy lifestyles just based on who picked up on things and earned trust. Of course in busy groups there will be enough work to break everybody's back and in slow groups even hyper-competent gunner machines will run out of work, so it's hardly a sure thing.

But IMO, TCR to extracting maximum value in biglaw is strategic incompetence.
That rings true. I'm curious: based on what you've seen, how long can those with the "breezy lifestyles" hang on with your firm before they're encouraged (or forced) to explore their exit options?
The work catches up eventually, you get pie for winning the pie eating contest and eventually the winners are choking to death in pie-vomit and so the losers of the pie eating contest get some more slabs too.

I don't really have an answer for how long one can last with a breezy lifestyle, because generally those people just wound up slammed with work eventually too.

Sounds nice in theory though : |

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by quakeroats » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:30 am

thesealocust wrote:Another way to make your life good is incompetence. Fuck up a few things and all of the sudden you'll have fewer emergencies to handle because nobody will trust you, and you'll earn the same salary as your peers but like twice as much money per hour.

I didn't really believe it until I saw a new crop of first years come in. It was shocking how quickly some got slammed and some had breezy lifestyles just based on who picked up on things and earned trust. Of course in busy groups there will be enough work to break everybody's back and in slow groups even hyper-competent gunner machines will run out of work, so it's hardly a sure thing.

But IMO, TCR to extracting maximum value in biglaw is strategic incompetence.
Different firms have different ways of handling that. Probably the best way (coincidentally the way we do it) is to shuffle them into the least interesting fully billable assignments, stuff that either doesn't matter or is highly supervised. If you see someone who does nothing but diligence, that's probably why.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by El Pollito » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:35 am

quakeroats wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Another way to make your life good is incompetence. Fuck up a few things and all of the sudden you'll have fewer emergencies to handle because nobody will trust you, and you'll earn the same salary as your peers but like twice as much money per hour.

I didn't really believe it until I saw a new crop of first years come in. It was shocking how quickly some got slammed and some had breezy lifestyles just based on who picked up on things and earned trust. Of course in busy groups there will be enough work to break everybody's back and in slow groups even hyper-competent gunner machines will run out of work, so it's hardly a sure thing.

But IMO, TCR to extracting maximum value in biglaw is strategic incompetence.
Different firms have different ways of handling that. Probably the best way (coincidentally the way we do it) is to shuffle them into the least interesting fully billable assignments, stuff that either doesn't matter or is highly supervised. If you see someone who does nothing but diligence, that's probably why.
Do you even strategic?

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quakeroats

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by quakeroats » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:36 am

rpupkin wrote:
thesealocust wrote:Another way to make your life good is incompetence. Fuck up a few things and all of the sudden you'll have fewer emergencies to handle because nobody will trust you, and you'll earn the same salary as your peers but like twice as much money per hour.

I didn't really believe it until I saw a new crop of first years come in. It was shocking how quickly some got slammed and some had breezy lifestyles just based on who picked up on things and earned trust. Of course in busy groups there will be enough work to break everybody's back and in slow groups even hyper-competent gunner machines will run out of work, so it's hardly a sure thing.

But IMO, TCR to extracting maximum value in biglaw is strategic incompetence.
That rings true. I'm curious: based on what you've seen, how long can those with the "breezy lifestyles" hang on with your firm before they're encouraged (or forced) to explore their exit options?
I've seen them hold on a long time. Sometimes 4-6 years. It's actually hard to be too incompetent for basic big law tasks. You can be too incompetent for interesting work, but chances are if you end up at a big firm you're competent enough to circle numbers and summarize contracts. About the only thing you can do to get a quick walk out the door is not do your work.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by 09042014 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:38 am

You don't even have to be incompetent. Just leave at 6pm. It'll take probably 2-3 years to fire you, but by then you can probably get another biglaw jerb.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:22 am

All the BigLaw "whining" is a sophisticated false-flag propaganda campaign by the firms themselves to slowly move the goalposts so that brown-nosing junior associates like OP start to think that a (minimum) 50-hour workweek is both desirable and constitutes "coasting along."

By the time he's a third-year he'll be bragging about coasting along at "merely" 3000 hours/year.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:52 am

I work in patents with fixed fees and it's extremely easy to make a huge amount of hours if you're efficient. A fixed-fee assignment with an hours credit of 10 billed hours can sometimes be done in 1 hour. Patent attorneys can get a percentage of their billings at some boutiques, so that 1 hour can be $1200+ of income, too.

The work is boring, but you don't have to lose hours of your life. Perhaps other parts of the legal industry are in a similar fixed-fee structure.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by spleenworship » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:I work in patents with fixed fees and it's extremely easy to make a huge amount of hours if you're efficient. A fixed-fee assignment with an hours credit of 10 billed hours can sometimes be done in 1 hour. Patent attorneys can get a percentage of their billings at some boutiques, so that 1 hour can be $1200+ of income, too.

The work is boring, but you don't have to lose hours of your life. Perhaps other parts of the legal industry are in a similar fixed-fee structure.
Non-biglaw anecdote here, but I have a friend in small firm federal crim def whose firm does flat fee. Some days he goes home at 4:30 because it was easy for him to get it all done. Other days he goes home at 10:00 because they've got motions to do or trial coming up. He doesn't have a billable hours requirement, which is nice, but he does have to get the job done every day, which is sometimes just a shitton of work. I'd say on average he's only putting in 50 hours a week, with weeks varying between 40 - 70 hours each. The majority being 40 hour weeks.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by 84651846190 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:09 pm

thesealocust wrote:Another way to make your life good is incompetence. Fuck up a few things and all of the sudden you'll have fewer emergencies to handle because nobody will trust you, and you'll earn the same salary as your peers but like twice as much money per hour.

I didn't really believe it until I saw a new crop of first years come in. It was shocking how quickly some got slammed and some had breezy lifestyles just based on who picked up on things and earned trust. Of course in busy groups there will be enough work to break everybody's back and in slow groups even hyper-competent gunner machines will run out of work, so it's hardly a sure thing.

But IMO, TCR to extracting maximum value in biglaw is strategic incompetence.
I agree re the strategic incompetence comment. To me, associates don't statically remain in one of two buckets: an incompetent bucket and a competent one. People who start out competent and work hard eventually get burned out and start producing shitty work, moving them into the incompetent bucket. This might motivate them to step up their game and regain some of the trust they may have lost. I have seen this on two major cases I've been involved with. People who were written off as doc reviewers really put their nose to the grindstone, learned the shit out of the facts of our case and were rewarded with better substantive experience as a result (even though one of them hadn't had the best experience with a partner on the case in the past).

It's pretty rare to find someone who is literally incompetent in biglaw. Almost everyone is capable of doing the work if given enough time/energy. It's a matter of who steps up to the plate to actually do it (which is easier said than done).

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by FinanceStudent28 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:09 pm

So out of curiosity what kind of hours per week are we speaking about for transactional big law?

Obviously it will vary.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by Antrim » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:11 pm

I call bullshit on anyone ever telling you being a summer associate was going to be hard.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by BigRob » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:13 pm

Can we get back on topic, everyone, please?

This thread was once and is now again about how everyone's a whiner and I'm always right.

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Re: Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine

Post by twenty 8 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:03 pm

Maybe the culture of the city is a factor...perhaps? My Gulf Coast 50 attorney office stays busy and works hard but this afternoon (at 4P) we took time off for a wine tasting. If not for that I’d probably have no work to take home over the weekend (as is, figure 2-3 hours). Is associate life just simply more grueling in the NE?

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