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second year associate. patent litigation. drafting some shit right now. hate life. ask me Qs on how miserable you will be when you're in litigation.

How's the salary for patent lit as a 1st and 2nd yr associate? Did you start off higher than new non-patent associates and/or do you think you received a higher bonus? The general assumption is patent lit (and patent attorneys in general) make more, but is that true right off the bat or is it just true later in the career?

Anonymous User wrote:How's the salary for patent lit as a 1st and 2nd yr associate? Did you start off higher than new non-patent associates and/or do you think you received a higher bonus? The general assumption is patent lit (and patent attorneys in general) make more, but is that true right off the bat or is it just true later in the career?

your assumption is wrong. generally, all big law firms pay the same scale:
160
170
185
...

regardless of what field you're in. some variation here and there depending on bonus structure. but you will receive NOTHING more than a same year non-patent associate at your firm. also, im talking about big law here. maybe some small firms differentiate, but ive never heard of it.

How do the exit options look for someone in your position. How hard is it to get in house from patent lit vs. From prosecution? Did you have a science degree? If so, is the work heavily reliant on your scientific knowledge?

sry to hear dood what about litigation is making you miserable? do you think you'd be any less miserable if you were transactional? apart from reading on tls that lit may be more easy to schedule your life around, im not really sure what lit attorneys do. i guess junior transactional attorneys do sig pages and doc review type stuff. what is the lit associate equivalent? and when does one become an expert at what they do. im still trying to figure that out with the transactional attorneys. also, what market if you dont mind. thx for taking questions.

Anonymous User wrote:How do the exit options look for someone in your position. How hard is it to get in house from patent lit vs. From prosecution? Did you have a science degree? If so, is the work heavily reliant on your scientific knowledge?

pretty good. ideally you need both, since in-house you will be asked to farm out your companies lit and prosc. my advice: at least do enough of the one you hate so you can talk the talk.

yes, bachelors electrical engineering. i rely to some degree. i would say 20% is background, 80% is reading a bunch of shit on wiki, buying a textbook, reading other similar patents, science papers, etc.

CiFULA wrote:sry to hear dood what about litigation is making you miserable? do you think you'd be any less miserable if you were transactional? apart from reading on tls that lit may be more easy to schedule your life around, im not really sure what lit attorneys do. i guess junior transactional attorneys do sig pages and doc review type stuff. what is the lit associate equivalent? and when does one become an expert at what they do. im still trying to figure that out with the transactional attorneys. also, what market if you dont mind. thx for taking questions.

thanks. DC. litigation requires you be on-call at certain times. for example, i had to cancel a bunch of plans and shit because opposing counsel filed something on friday night. on the other hand, sometimes I dont even go to work because there is nothing to do. your schedule entirely depends on the case.

my friends who do transactional work equal number of hours, but they know when. i.e., the merger is set for X date, and all the transactional attorneys scramble to meet that date, sometimes working non-stop the days before.

CiFULA wrote:what is the lit associate equivalent?

legal research. draft pleadings, motions, briefs, discovery requests and responses. work with expert witnesses. teleconference with clients about how the case is going. sit in depos and try not to fall asleep. go to court now and then, but not very often as a junior associate.

we also do doc review too, but at my firm it mostly gets farmed out to contract attorneys and i think a lot of big firms do the same.

dood wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:How do the exit options look for someone in your position. How hard is it to get in house from patent lit vs. From prosecution? Did you have a science degree? If so, is the work heavily reliant on your scientific knowledge?

pretty good. ideally you need both, since in-house you will be asked to farm out your companies lit and prosc. my advice: at least do enough of the one you hate so you can talk the talk.

yes, bachelors electrical engineering. i rely to some degree. i would say 20% is background, 80% is reading a bunch of shit on wiki, buying a textbook, reading other similar patents, science papers, etc.

This advice should be caveated big time. If you have a tech degree, the exit options from patent lit are okay. If you don't, you're fucked. I have personal experience with this.

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote: This advice should be caveated big time. If you have a tech degree, the exit options from patent lit are okay. If you don't, you're fucked. I have personal experience with this.

whats up. remember when i used to send you PMs asking about the firm life? you shoulda just told me to quit when i still had a life, GF, etc.

dood wrote:

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote: This advice should be caveated big time. If you have a tech degree, the exit options from patent lit are okay. If you don't, you're fucked. I have personal experience with this.

whats up. remember when i used to send you PMs asking about the firm life? you shoulda just told me to quit when i still had a life, GF, etc.

oh shit.

opinion on best practice group for semblance of work/life balance?

toothbrush wrote:

dood wrote:

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote: This advice should be caveated big time. If you have a tech degree, the exit options from patent lit are okay. If you don't, you're fucked. I have personal experience with this.

whats up. remember when i used to send you PMs asking about the firm life? you shoulda just told me to quit when i still had a life, GF, etc.

oh shit.

opinion on best practice group for semblance of work/life balance?

not litigation? i dunno man, it varies a lot by firm too. maybe even office. i have friends doing patent lit at quinn, foley, PH, etc -- and its all over the map. some are more fucked than me, some have awesome life balance (wife, kids, etc.). prolly depends also on partners you work for.

just make sure to ask ALOT of questions when you interview, especially the associates. if they look miserable, dont go.

dood wrote:
not litigation? i dunno man, it varies a lot by firm too. maybe even office. i have friends doing patent lit at quinn, foley, PH, etc -- and its all over the map. some are more fucked than me, some have awesome life balance (wife, kids, etc.). prolly depends also on partners you work for.

just make sure to ask ALOT of questions when you interview, especially the associates. if they look miserable, dont go.

seems like that's the general advice (varying firm by firm, partner by partner).

have you gotten to go to court much in last two years (to litigate, not file)

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:

dood wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:How do the exit options look for someone in your position. How hard is it to get in house from patent lit vs. From prosecution? Did you have a science degree? If so, is the work heavily reliant on your scientific knowledge?

pretty good. ideally you need both, since in-house you will be asked to farm out your companies lit and prosc. my advice: at least do enough of the one you hate so you can talk the talk.

yes, bachelors electrical engineering. i rely to some degree. i would say 20% is background, 80% is reading a bunch of shit on wiki, buying a textbook, reading other similar patents, science papers, etc.

This advice should be caveated big time. If you have a tech degree, the exit options from patent lit are okay. If you don't, you're fucked. I have personal experience with this.

Good to hear that the Google/Wikipedia combo never fails. So I'm assuming life sciences are kind of screwed when it comes to exit options?

toothbrush wrote: seems like that's the general advice (varying firm by firm, partner by partner).

have you gotten to go to court much in last two years (to litigate, not file)

yeah, sorry I dont have anything more concrete. also, when you get to your firm, make friends with senior associates and ask them which partners are good to work for.

yes, have gone to court, but for nothing worth mentioning. if you must know, pro bono cases, where i do all the talking, but it gets old pretty quickly. on real litigations too, but only minor hearings, and you just sit there. so also pretty worthless.

tortellini wrote:

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote:

dood wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:How do the exit options look for someone in your position. How hard is it to get in house from patent lit vs. From prosecution? Did you have a science degree? If so, is the work heavily reliant on your scientific knowledge?

pretty good. ideally you need both, since in-house you will be asked to farm out your companies lit and prosc. my advice: at least do enough of the one you hate so you can talk the talk.

yes, bachelors electrical engineering. i rely to some degree. i would say 20% is background, 80% is reading a bunch of shit on wiki, buying a textbook, reading other similar patents, science papers, etc.

This advice should be caveated big time. If you have a tech degree, the exit options from patent lit are okay. If you don't, you're fucked. I have personal experience with this.

Good to hear that the Google/Wikipedia combo never fails. So I'm assuming life sciences are kind of screwed when it comes to exit options?

i think life sciences qualifies as tech degree. i dont know that many life sciences people though, so not sure. sorry.

From talking to other associates at your firm, how much does QOL change across practice areas? (What is the best?)

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:From talking to other associates at your firm, how much does QOL change across practice areas? (What is the best?)

dunno, bc i havent talked to associates in every area. but i will tell you what I know has shit QOL and why:

- patent troll litigation, because their job is to make life miserable for as long as possible for everyone until your client folds
- any litigation where the gov is the plaintiff (antitrust, SEC, etc), because the FTC, DOJ, SEC are all dickcheesburgers on powertrips, i.e. people who are trying to make a name for themselves for one reason or another
- FCPA, because you have to travel to 3rd world countries, and spend months away from your friends and family

dood wrote:

Biglaw_Associate_V20 wrote: This advice should be caveated big time. If you have a tech degree, the exit options from patent lit are okay. If you don't, you're fucked. I have personal experience with this.

whats up. remember when i used to send you PMs asking about the firm life? you shoulda just told me to quit when i still had a life, GF, etc.

You can always quit.

OP, thanks for doing this. I keep hearing about QOL depending entirely on the partners associates work for. Do associates have the capacity to affect the partner-associate situations they find themselves in? At your firm or anywhere you know of?

Are there major differences between CS and EE folks in terms of employability and exit options?

dood wrote:

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:From talking to other associates at your firm, how much does QOL change across practice areas? (What is the best?)

dunno, bc i havent talked to associates in every area. but i will tell you what I know has shit QOL and why:

- patent troll litigation, because their job is to make life miserable for as long as possible for everyone until your client folds
- any litigation where the gov is the plaintiff (antitrust, SEC, etc), because the FTC, DOJ, SEC are all dickcheesburgers on powertrips, i.e. people who are trying to make a name for themselves for one reason or another
- FCPA, because you have to travel to 3rd world countries, and spend months away from your friends and family

Thanks for the bare facts on this one.

How much do you hate having to do pitches for new cases? I hate it.

my friends who do transactional work equal number of hours, but they know when. i.e., the merger is set for X date, and all the transactional attorneys scramble to meet that date, sometimes working non-stop the days before.

lol no we don't. About 90% of the time, dates slip or are pushed up. Transactional is way, way more unpredictable.

papercut wrote:Are there major differences between CS and EE folks in terms of employability and exit options?

Yes.