Page 1 of 2
Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:50 pm
by BlueLotus
Asking for a friend.
He was naively aiming for a podunk, flyover state he had no ties to at all, hit a bunch of brick walls and ended up not doing legal work last summer--unless trying to launch a non-profit (which now is officially 501c3) counts.
What would be the effect of this on his long-term career? My take is that employers will look askance at this and wonder whether he's serious about entering the legal profession, but I was just wondering if such a situation is salvageable.
No idea about grades. Top undergrad and strong softs, though (TFA, Fulbright caliber.)
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:57 pm
by BarbellDreams
I mean, it not good. There is really no other way to say it. Every interview he/she does for 2L summer will basically be him/her competing against every other candidate who had law experience in the summer. Better hop for great grades/journal and come up with a great story on why you didn't bother with a law job for the summer.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:59 pm
by BlueLotus
BarbellDreams wrote:I mean, it not good. There is really no other way to say it. Every interview he/she does for 2L summer will basically be him/her competing against every other candidate who had law experience in the summer. Better hop for great grades/journal and come up with a great story on why you didn't bother with a law job for the summer.
or perhaps put a positive spin on the non-profit thing as quasi-legal work?
he's def not on a journal, and i don't ask about grades so no idea on that front!
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:03 pm
by BlueLotus
i told him he ought to do a clinic 2L year (to compensate for the lack of summer jerb) but instead he loaded up on bar classes--16 credits of them. -__-
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:06 pm
by brotherdarkness
.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:15 pm
by stillwater
brotherdarkness wrote:I assume it's not going to be a good thing, but maybe he can spin whatever he did into a unique attribute. I didn't extern for a judge, which seems to be the standard, and did some random bullshit instead. I never got the impression that what I did over the summer was actually going to make-or-break my interview; it just seemed to serve as fodder for conversation.
Everything I've seen on TLS seems to suggest that what you do your 1L summer makes little to no difference at all, so long as it's related to the law (i.e., don't work at Starbucks because you want to actually make some money instead of volunteering your time to be somebody's research monkey). I'm sure he can find a way to spin the non-profit thing as quasi-legal and, who knows, maybe not having the same shit on his resume as everyone else will become a positive.
I agree with this. It is going to be important how he frames his experience (much like anything). If he can make himself sound plugged in and not disinterested, then I don't think this is going to be fatal.
edited to qualify: if he has knockout grades, then I think he can get around this. if he is a borderline candidate, then I think this gets much worse because at that point they are looking for you to convince them to hire you, not find a reason not to hire you.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:43 pm
by BlueLotus
stillwater wrote:brotherdarkness wrote:I assume it's not going to be a good thing, but maybe he can spin whatever he did into a unique attribute. I didn't extern for a judge, which seems to be the standard, and did some random bullshit instead. I never got the impression that what I did over the summer was actually going to make-or-break my interview; it just seemed to serve as fodder for conversation.
Everything I've seen on TLS seems to suggest that what you do your 1L summer makes little to no difference at all, so long as it's related to the law (i.e., don't work at Starbucks because you want to actually make some money instead of volunteering your time to be somebody's research monkey). I'm sure he can find a way to spin the non-profit thing as quasi-legal and, who knows, maybe not having the same shit on his resume as everyone else will become a positive.
I agree with this. It is going to be important how he frames his experience (much like anything). If he can make himself sound plugged in and not disinterested, then I don't think this is going to be fatal.
edited to qualify: if he has knockout grades, then I think he can get around this. if he is a borderline candidate, then I think this gets much worse because at that point they are looking for you to convince them to hire you, not find a reason not to hire you.
well, he's a straight-up PI gunner (not the 'prestigious' kind) so the positions he'd want probably DGAF about grades
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:45 pm
by stillwater
BlueLotus wrote:stillwater wrote:brotherdarkness wrote:I assume it's not going to be a good thing, but maybe he can spin whatever he did into a unique attribute. I didn't extern for a judge, which seems to be the standard, and did some random bullshit instead. I never got the impression that what I did over the summer was actually going to make-or-break my interview; it just seemed to serve as fodder for conversation.
Everything I've seen on TLS seems to suggest that what you do your 1L summer makes little to no difference at all, so long as it's related to the law (i.e., don't work at Starbucks because you want to actually make some money instead of volunteering your time to be somebody's research monkey). I'm sure he can find a way to spin the non-profit thing as quasi-legal and, who knows, maybe not having the same shit on his resume as everyone else will become a positive.
I agree with this. It is going to be important how he frames his experience (much like anything). If he can make himself sound plugged in and not disinterested, then I don't think this is going to be fatal.
edited to qualify: if he has knockout grades, then I think he can get around this. if he is a borderline candidate, then I think this gets much worse because at that point they are looking for you to convince them to hire you, not find a reason not to hire you.
well, he's a straight-up PI gunner (not the 'prestigious' kind) so the positions he'd want probably DGAF about grades
well then charities seem more up the alley of PI and probably can be better parlayed into an explanation.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:50 pm
by desrea777
BlueLotus wrote:Asking for a friend.
He was naively aiming for a podunk, flyover state he had no ties to at all, hit a bunch of brick walls and ended up not doing legal work last summer--unless trying to launch a non-profit (which now is officially 501c3) counts.
What would be the effect of this on his long-term career? My take is that employers will look askance at this and wonder whether he's serious about entering the legal profession, but I was just wondering if such a situation is salvageable.
No idea about grades. Top undergrad and strong softs, though (TFA, Fulbright caliber.)
Not necessarily a big deal. For example, I didn't do legal work my 1L summer and got a 2L summer clerkship with no issues and was offered a DOJ honors position.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:51 pm
by stillwater
desrea777 wrote:BlueLotus wrote:Asking for a friend.
He was naively aiming for a podunk, flyover state he had no ties to at all, hit a bunch of brick walls and ended up not doing legal work last summer--unless trying to launch a non-profit (which now is officially 501c3) counts.
What would be the effect of this on his long-term career? My take is that employers will look askance at this and wonder whether he's serious about entering the legal profession, but I was just wondering if such a situation is salvageable.
No idea about grades. Top undergrad and strong softs, though (TFA, Fulbright caliber.)
Not necessarily a big deal. For example, I didn't do legal work my 1L summer and got a 2L summer clerkship with no issues and was offered a DOJ honors position.
yea, but how prestigious were you?
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:53 pm
by brotherdarkness
.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:57 am
by 2014
I mean at this point he missed the 2L boat so he needs to be focusing on doing things from this point forward that might lead to a job. However, to the extent that 1L summer still matters, just have him list the 501c3, over-emphasize the work he did, and have a few anecdotes ready about how it might be of use to his legal career. It's not like anyone did anything that useful as a 1L.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:03 am
by worldtraveler
Is this non-profit doing anything remotely related to legal work? If it was he should just ask like that was his plan all along.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:27 am
by BlueLotus
worldtraveler wrote:Is this non-profit doing anything remotely related to legal work? If it was he should just ask like that was his plan all along.
sorta. it's a historical preservation law -related nonprofit.
also, i'd hardly say he missed the "2L boat"...believe it or not, public interest hiring is still in full swing. so are small firms.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:38 pm
by guano
BlueLotus wrote:nded up not doing legal work last summer
so, he doesn't have an SA yet? He's fucked already
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:47 pm
by BlueLotus
guano wrote:BlueLotus wrote:nded up not doing legal work last summer
so, he doesn't have an SA yet? He's fucked already
he was never interested in a biglaw summer associate in the first place...not everyone does OCI (i didn't as well, and focused all my energy on direct applying and EJW)
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:02 pm
by stillwater
BlueLotus wrote:guano wrote:BlueLotus wrote:nded up not doing legal work last summer
so, he doesn't have an SA yet? He's fucked already
he was never interested in a biglaw summer associate in the first place...not everyone does OCI (i didn't as well, and focused all my energy on direct applying and EJW)
Guano: does not compute; does not compute
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:05 pm
by 2014
BlueLotus wrote:worldtraveler wrote:Is this non-profit doing anything remotely related to legal work? If it was he should just ask like that was his plan all along.
sorta. it's a historical preservation law -related nonprofit.
also, i'd hardly say he missed the "2L boat"...believe it or not, public interest hiring is still in full swing. so are small firms.
Yeah of course, I obviously meant the big law hiring cycle which is the one that matters when people say "you just need to do SOMETHING your 1L summer". Consensus is that small law and PI hiring is way more black box.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:07 pm
by BlueLotus
2014 wrote:BlueLotus wrote:worldtraveler wrote:Is this non-profit doing anything remotely related to legal work? If it was he should just ask like that was his plan all along.
sorta. it's a historical preservation law -related nonprofit.
also, i'd hardly say he missed the "2L boat"...believe it or not, public interest hiring is still in full swing. so are small firms.
Yeah of course, I obviously meant the big law hiring cycle which is the one that matters when people say "you just need to do SOMETHING your 1L summer". Consensus is that small law and PI hiring is way more black box.
well, since PI is all about demonstrated commitment and volunteering your ass off, i think employers in that area as well would look askance at someone with 0 pro bono hours, no clinics, and no legit 1L summer employment.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:22 pm
by PepperJack
I'd imagine no one can say for sure because nobody has
no 1l summer job so the only logic we have to go on is:
If 1L job -> sometimes paid 2L job, and if 1L job -> sometimes no paid 2L job.
If he does nothing this summer then every firm will ask him about it, and likely any response would be sketch enough to just say, "Next." However, I might be in the minority believing if he did get some decent corporate job that paid he could likely say, "I wanted to make some money," and that most people would consider that a sensible rationale.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:36 pm
by worldtraveler
BlueLotus wrote:worldtraveler wrote:Is this non-profit doing anything remotely related to legal work? If it was he should just ask like that was his plan all along.
sorta. it's a historical preservation law -related nonprofit.
also, i'd hardly say he missed the "2L boat"...believe it or not, public interest hiring is still in full swing. so are small firms.
public interest 2L hiring has barely even started. I haven't even reviewed resumes yet and won't be done for another month or two.
Just stress the legal aspects of the non-profit on the resume. Honestly if I were reviewing his resume I would view it as a plus. He should get involved in clinics/volunteer work regardless.
It's also not entirely unheard of to not have a summer legal job. I had a couple friends who didn't do one (they were weirdos who did their own thing in law school). There are people who just don't find anything; rare, but it happens. In PI it's not a complete deal breaker but honestly that person would get grilled extra hard in an interview because I would want to know why that person didn't have offers and also probably rely on their references more.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:39 pm
by 2014
BlueLotus wrote:2014 wrote:BlueLotus wrote:worldtraveler wrote:Is this non-profit doing anything remotely related to legal work? If it was he should just ask like that was his plan all along.
sorta. it's a historical preservation law -related nonprofit.
also, i'd hardly say he missed the "2L boat"...believe it or not, public interest hiring is still in full swing. so are small firms.
Yeah of course, I obviously meant the big law hiring cycle which is the one that matters when people say "you just need to do SOMETHING your 1L summer". Consensus is that small law and PI hiring is way more black box.
well, since PI is all about demonstrated commitment and volunteering your ass off, i think employers in that area as well would look askance at someone with 0 pro bono hours, no clinics, and no legit 1L summer employment.
Yeah for sure, I think if anything you/your friend/PI gunners should be hopeful though since while a random Biglaw firm drone who does OCI interviews just wants to check the "did something 1L" box, a PI interview might cares more about what makes you a good fit for their cause. If you are applying to the ACLU for example, i don't think it will be that big of a deal that you are competing with someone who cite checked a professor's upcoming legal thriller all summer. My original advice still stands though that even something vaguely legal like what your friend seems to have done can be sold as completely legal with some practice, and it might be better since it involves skills a PI or small shop might want (entrepreneurialism, self starter, passion, etc).
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:39 pm
by BlueLotus
thanks, this is a helpful approach. glad things aren't totally hopeless!
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:43 pm
by rickgrimes69
Anybody else think this is the same guy that was gunning for BIGWESTVIRGINIAPUBLICINTEREST with no ties to the region?
Can't find the link atm but that thread was a goldmine.
Re: Effect of no 1L summer job?
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 5:27 pm
by BlueLotus
rickgrimes69 wrote:Anybody else think this is the same guy that was gunning for BIGWESTVIRGINIAPUBLICINTEREST with no ties to the region?
Can't find the link atm but that thread was a goldmine.
same guy, lol.
eta: if you're from wv, sorry if i offended you by calling it a "podunk, flyover state", rick.