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Considering a Cravath offer - I liked them, but I haven't quite put my finger on what makes it differentiates it in a meaningful way from v2-5. Looking for any insight beyond what I find in vault/chambers/etc.

Echo chamber.

You are trying to decipher rankings that literally have no method to them other than that they ask associates to rate firms from 1 to 10.

When I do the survey, I do my best. But fuck if I know the entire V100, and for a good 75 firms I just give them a 4.

That should show you how arbitrary the rankings are, and how dumb your question is.

Also, no reason to be anonymous.

dixiecupdrinking wrote:Echo chamber.

I believe this is TCR.

Fresh Prince wrote:You are trying to decipher rankings that literally have no method to them other than that they ask associates to rate firms from 1 to 10.

When I do the survey, I do my best. But fuck if I know the entire V100, and for a good 75 firms I just give them a 4.

That should show you how arbitrary the rankings are, and how dumb your question is.

Also, no reason to be anonymous.

Keep in mind, too, that law firm rankings are pretty meaningless, especially ones that attempt to just rank all firms nationally based on prestige.

Fresh Prince wrote:You are trying to decipher rankings that literally have no method to them other than that they ask associates to rate firms from 1 to 10.

When I do the survey, I do my best. But fuck if I know the entire V100, and for a good 75 firms I just give them a 4.

That should show you how arbitrary the rankings are, and how dumb your question is.

Also, no reason to be anonymous.

+A million - exactly the right answer.

If you'd like to know why Cravath consistently ranks #2 on a survey that asks associates to rank law firms based on ~PRESTIGE~ on a scale from 1 to 10, it's a combination of a few things:

1. There are more big firm lawyers in NYC than any other city by a wide margin, and they're all full of themselves.

2. Wachtell is incredibly profitable and operates a lot like an investment bank, especially with respect to fees. This means people rank it highly, especially when rumors get passed around about bonuses paid there.

3. After that, there's a small handful of firms which split up the best/highest stakes corporate work in NYC, and they round out the other top vault slots (see point 1)

4. Amongst those firms, Cravath does the most to promote an image of snootiness. They look at undergrad grades, they're often the first to move during bonus season, they claim to never hire lateral associates, they stick most rigidly to a system of up-or-out, they're rumored to have more consistently awful hours - even for summers. It's also the firm that "birthed" the big law firm model, and as a consequence has a storied history that is easy to trace. Basically, it's easier to identify things that are different about Cravath than about its peer firms, even if none of them are really things that make it obviously "better" than the firms who it works with across the table regularly.

Anonymous User wrote:I sort of get the Wachtell thing - it's top, but it's different.

But why doesn't Cravath swap around the top 5? 3-5 seem mobile. Is there really something different about the place? The PPP is good, but not out of sight and not untouchable (http://abovethelaw.com/2013/10/bow-befo ... -planet/2/ - s&c beats it, paul weiss is right there).

I'm not even sure what other metrics to look to? Lots of places have great Chambers rankings, etc. What goes into this sense that it's more prestigious than the places just below it?

At least at my t6 school, they aren't more grade selective than other places. It's a hard get, certainly, but these aren't the top kids in the class either.

Thanks for any insight.

You were smart to ask anon

It's sensitive info (that I have)

You can PM me

I also think that while the rankings are skewed by NYC associates, part of why Cravath is always up top might be due to non-NYC associates. Cravath is like the great granddaddy of biglaw. People have heard of Cravath, the Cravath Model, etc. everywhere. But you might get associates in Minneapolis or Cleveland or wherever who don't necessarily know what a Sullivan & Cromwell or a Simpson Thacher is. So some of the other top firms might get more varied responses just because they don't have the same ubiquitous name recognition. Just a thought.

Of course, the only right answer is who cares because fine distinctions in Vault rankings don't mean anything at all.

dixiecupdrinking wrote: Of course, the only right answer is who cares because fine distinctions in Vault rankings don't mean anything at all.

Ding ding ding ding ding

dixiecupdrinking wrote:I also think that while the rankings are skewed by NYC associates, part of why Cravath is always up top might be due to non-NYC associates. Cravath is like the great granddaddy of biglaw. People have heard of Cravath, the Cravath Model, etc. everywhere. But you might get associates in Minneapolis or Cleveland or wherever who don't necessarily know what a Sullivan & Cromwell or a Simpson Thacher is. So some of the other top firms might get more varied responses just because they don't have the same ubiquitous name recognition. Just a thought.

Of course, the only right answer is who cares because fine distinctions in Vault rankings don't mean anything at all.

There is probably some truth to this, since in New York (which I assume to include surveys from only New York associates), Sullivan & Cromwell has been ranked ahead of Cravath a number of time.

Vault rankings measure how well a firm does in the Vault rankings. Thats it. Law students love Vault because its the only thing they can really point to that will differentiate firms given how little they know about legal practice. So while Cravath is considered by law students to be #2, many lawyers don't, or more likely, don't care how firms stack up outside of their practice group.

I would look at Vault like you would US News. E.g., taking Wash. U. or even UCLA over BC to work in Boston is asinine. Same as taking some NY V10 over Goodwin Procter if you want to work in Boston. Or taking Latham in Boston over Choate or foley hoag just because Latham has a higher Vault ranking (Boston examples because thats the only market I know/care about).

everyone discounting prestige = not in that position
of course it means something to be at cravath or skadden, versus a lower prestige firm. maybe it's not what you want, maybe it's not something you value, but there is absolutely value in the Cravath name... and opportunities that come with it - in terms of clients and high profile work, exit options, connectedness of associates/partners - versus lower "prestige" firms.

Others clearly value lifestyle. To some people, work is their life. No different than an NBA player who devotes their time and life to the hardwood. There absolutely is a difference between being part of the Lakers/Celtics, versus the Cavs/Raptors. Even though we might not all have the same values, let's not discount it completely.

Anonymous User wrote:No different than an NBA player who devotes their time and life to the hardwood. There absolutely is a difference between being part of the Lakers/Celtics, versus the Cavs/Raptors.

Your whole post was nonsense but the comically off the mark NBA analogy really takes the cake.

Anonymous User wrote:everyone discounting prestige = not in that position
of course it means something to be at cravath or skadden, versus a lower prestige firm. maybe it's not what you want, maybe it's not something you value, but there is absolutely value in the Cravath name... and opportunities that come with it - in terms of clients and high profile work, exit options, connectedness of associates/partners - versus lower "prestige" firms.

Others clearly value lifestyle. To some people, work is their life. No different than an NBA player who devotes their time and life to the hardwood. There absolutely is a difference between being part of the Lakers/Celtics, versus the Cavs/Raptors. Even though we might not all have the same values, let's not discount it completely.

lol

Anonymous User wrote:everyone discounting prestige = not in that position
of course it means something to be at cravath

For most people who have the opportunity, it means they made the wrong decision.

Anonymous User wrote:everyone discounting prestige = not in that position
of course it means something to be at cravath or skadden, versus a lower prestige firm. maybe it's not what you want, maybe it's not something you value, but there is absolutely value in the Cravath name... and opportunities that come with it - in terms of clients and high profile work, exit options, connectedness of associates/partners - versus lower "prestige" firms.

Others clearly value lifestyle. To some people, work is their life. No different than an NBA player who devotes their time and life to the hardwood. There absolutely is a difference between being part of the Lakers/Celtics, versus the Cavs/Raptors. Even though we might not all have the same values, let's not discount it completely.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I smell what this guy's stepping in.

Why should you care about the Vault ranking of your law firm? Beause if you're like me and this guy, you spend the duration of your sexual encounters just endlessly repeating the Vault ranking number of the law school at which you work, and you want that number to be as prestigious as possible so that she'll have an orgasm. This is called "talking dirty." You just shout "SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, 3! SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, 3! SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, 3!" until it's time to blow your load, at which point you pull out and explore your exit options.

SBL wrote: You just shout "SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, 3! SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, 3! SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, 3!" until it's time to blow your load, at which point you pull out and explore your exit options.

180

Anonymous User wrote:everyone discounting prestige = not in that position
of course it means something to be at cravath or skadden, versus a lower prestige firm. maybe it's not what you want, maybe it's not something you value, but there is absolutely value in the Cravath name... and opportunities that come with it - in terms of clients and high profile work, exit options, connectedness of associates/partners - versus lower "prestige" firms.

Others clearly value lifestyle. To some people, work is their life. No different than an NBA player who devotes their time and life to the hardwood. There absolutely is a difference between being part of the Lakers/Celtics, versus the Cavs/Raptors. Even though we might not all have the same values, let's not discount it completely.

Why is this anonymous???

SBL wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:everyone discounting prestige = not in that position
of course it means something to be at cravath or skadden, versus a lower prestige firm. maybe it's not what you want, maybe it's not something you value, but there is absolutely value in the Cravath name... and opportunities that come with it - in terms of clients and high profile work, exit options, connectedness of associates/partners - versus lower "prestige" firms.

Others clearly value lifestyle. To some people, work is their life. No different than an NBA player who devotes their time and life to the hardwood. There absolutely is a difference between being part of the Lakers/Celtics, versus the Cavs/Raptors. Even though we might not all have the same values, let's not discount it completely.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I smell what this guy's stepping in.

Why should you care about the Vault ranking of your law firm? Beause if you're like me and this guy, you spend the duration of your sexual encounters just endlessly repeating the Vault ranking number of the law school at which you work, and you want that number to be as prestigious as possible so that she'll have an orgasm. This is called "talking dirty." You just shout "SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, 3! SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, 3! SULLIVAN AND CROMWELL, 3!" until it's time to blow your load, at which point you pull out and explore your exit options.

This made me spit out my coffee. Really excellent stuff.

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