Avoiding depression during job hunt Forum

[A. Nony Mouse]

I promise I'll shut up about depression after this because I'm getting tedious, but: it's certainly normal to get sad, frustrated, scared, unhappy or the like about future prospects if the job search is going badly. But I don't think it makes sense to say depression is rational under any circumstances, because the whole point is that it's an emotional issue which, by its nature, is not subject to reason. Also, once you are depressed, you're not thinking rationally. Suicide isn't a rational response to anything, and I think saying it is, well, that's depression talking, not reason.

[Anonymous User]

Suicide isn't a rational response to anything, and I think saying it is, well, that's depression talking, not reason.

Playing devil's advocate here, but what if you are a 75 year old with a terminal illness? Do you think things like Oregon's statute that allows for the right to die in certain circumstances is statutorily authorizing individuals to act irrationally? Or is it a recognition that, in some cases, however limited, suicide is a decision that someone can competently make?

Suicide is not always the result of depression; it could be a calculated decision that minimizes suffering.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Suicide isn't a rational response to anything, and I think saying it is, well, that's depression talking, not reason.

Playing devil's advocate here, but what if you are a 75 year old with a terminal illness? Do you think things like Oregon's statute that allows for the right to die in certain circumstances is statutorily authorizing individuals to act irrationally? Or is it a recognition that, in some cases, however limited, suicide is a decision that someone can competently make?

Suicide is not always the result of depression; it could be a calculated decision that minimizes suffering.

Since you ask - no, I don't have a problem with that statute; I should have limited my comments to suicide by depressed persons. I actually don't think most people making a decision contemplated by the Oregon statute are depressed. Moreover, it's a completely different situation for someone with a terminal illness; it's one thing to authorize assisted suicide for someone who faces imminent death (just slightly less imminent than the proposed suicide), and who, by the very nature of being assisted, has discussed the whole thing with medical providers and family. I doubt any medical provider or family member of anyone pondering suicide in this thread would in any way support such a decision - because it would be a bad one.

[Anonymous User]

This is very true. However, it hardly seems like a coincidence when people who have never had a quitter mentality or a single suicidal thought happen to start considering suicide just when they're 200k in debt with a bleak future. Obviously some people have more of a predisposition to evolve from extremely stressed out into depression than others, but these people likely aren't irrational.

Depression generally forms when people feel as though they need something to be happy, they lack that something and feel hopeless they will ever get that something.

This is why I said why somebody striking out can factor in. Have bad grades? Okay, good grades may be attainable. Bad interviewer? Maybe interviewing skills are attainable. When the problem is you, and nothing else it seems much bleaker.

See, I don't agree with most of this. Saying the people in this thread never had a "quitter" mentality or a suicidal thought before dealing with job problems is a complete assumption - you don't know their mental health histories. For those whom your statement is accurate, I'd bet some of them are people who've never had to deal with significant failure before (they did well enough in college/the LSAT to get into a good LS, for instance), and that can be very difficult to handle for the first time, especially when the stakes are so high. I also think your "depression generally forms..." statement is completely wrong - for one thing, there's a lot more about brain chemical and mechanics that needs to be taken into account. Bluntly, not everyone has the same reaction to problems getting a job - even if it's frustrating and saddening to probably everyone, that doesn't mean everyone ends up depressed.

As someone who has thought about suicide for many of the reasons others posting here have identified, I don't think this debate is very constructive. Nor is it constructive to say that there can be nothing rational about the thought process that ends up with suicide as a solution, as it essentially tells a depressed person that, in addition to their other flaws, they can't even think rationally. It would be much more difficult for you to dismiss suicidal thought as irrational if you were confronted with the exact same set of circumstances as suicidal people are.

[Edit]
Seriously, you should really take your assertions that suicide is never rational and bottle it, because the only people you can hope to be talking to are those who are not depressed/suicidal, while those who are depressed/suicidal will interpret your condemnation negatively: you are now explicitly saying that those who are suicidal and depressed are irrational, and confirming that those who come forward as depressed will be thought of as such by society and individuals like yourself. Not helpful.
[/Edit]

Personally, I believe that if somebody is willing to tag themselves, even anonymously, with the word "depressed" then I think its likely that they aren't just having a bad day but are struggling with some very serious, ongoing issues. Given the horrific statistics on the prevalence of clinical depression within the legal profession (some estimate that up to 40% of third-year law students are depressed, while others estimate that 25% of practicing lawyers may be depressed) it seems reasonable to think that someone who is jobless, deeply indebted, and saying they are depressed is, in fact, clinically depressed.

Granted, this discussion about whether or not someone is really depressed isn't as bad as those who think that telling people they're whiny little babies for not getting off their asses and pounding the pavement like real men do — those posters are straight up idiots who are actively feeding into depressive self-loathing tendencies and making the suicidal feel even more worthless about themselves, and it would be nice if their posts could be deleted (if you're one of the ones who thinks that giving this kind of advice to someone who is depressed is a good idea, I suggest you bite your tongue and move along) — it's not really helpful to those who are afflicted.

I don't have any real solutions, however. Seeking treatment is the best option, but it's difficult to law students and lawyers to stigmatize themselves by coming forward. Hopefully those that have been willing to come forward as depressed in this anonymous forum will also be willing to come forward and seek professional counseling, and I strongly encourage them to do so, especially since the reaction from professionals will be more understanding and constructive than much of what is being said here.

Perhaps the real travesty in all of this is that depression is a highly predictable and highly probable outcome of law school — especially in this legal market — yet law schools do very little to raise awareness of depression, let alone extend resources to deal with it. Presumably the only way this will change is if there is a spate of suicides on campus.

[bjsesq]

As someone who has thought about suicide for many of the reasons others posting here have identified, I don't think this debate is very constructive.

Jesus fuck, this. Fucking sperglords.

[Anonymous User]

Research the story of Masada where an entire city killed itself to avoid what was sure to be a more painful death, sex slavery or just regular slavery.

You are making the blanket assumption that any life is better than any death, and I don't agree with that. However, if it's just explain poverty like begging on the street versus not putting your family through severe emotional distress, I would say that life is worth living because it now serves a purpose.

This isn't to say the life of vagabonds is worthless, but it is especially depressing when you (1) are aware of how low you are on the social ladder, (2) have little chance of getting out and (3) have the skills to be on the opposite end of the spectrum but failed to make anything of them. Through this process, there were many times I wished I could completely lack self-awareness or just be mentally retarded, but no dos.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Okay, apologies, all. The last thing I wanted to do was to make anyone who's depressed feel worse about themselves. I'm talking about this based on my experience with a very very very close family member who suffers from clinical depression, who, when depressed, in fact exhibits irrational thought patterns including thoughts of suicide (and my own experience with depression, for which I received treatment from a therapist and a psychiatrist, though it was less severe than my family member's). When I say this, I do so because I do consider depression a disease, and one symptom of the disease is that it distorts people's thought patterns - not because they're bad people, or stupid, or inherently poor thinkers; because they're suffering from a disease that prevents them from seeing things outside a certain perspective. But I'm also not willing to say that suicidal thoughts are rational because that implies suicide is a good solution, and it's not.

However, none of my comments were intended to stigmatize or insult anyone who suffers from depression, and if they came across that way, I am truly very sorry. Like anon above, I hope that people struggling with depression are able to get counseling that helps them, because it's a terrible experience I wouldn't wish on anyone. I'll bow out now.

[Anonymous User]

Okay, apologies, all. The last thing I wanted to do was to make anyone who's depressed feel worse about themselves. I'm talking about this based on my experience with a very very very close family member who suffers from clinical depression, who, when depressed, in fact exhibits irrational thought patterns including thoughts of suicide (and my own experience with depression, for which I received treatment from a therapist and a psychiatrist, though it was less severe than my family member's). When I say this, I do so because I do consider depression a disease, and one symptom of the disease is that it distorts people's thought patterns - not because they're bad people, or stupid, or inherently poor thinkers; because they're suffering from a disease that prevents them from seeing things outside a certain perspective. But I'm also not willing to say that suicidal thoughts are rational because that implies suicide is a good solution, and it's not.

However, none of my comments were intended to stigmatize or insult anyone who suffers from depression, and if they came across that way, I am truly very sorry. Like anon above, I hope that people struggling with depression are able to get counseling that helps them, because it's a terrible experience I wouldn't wish on anyone. I'll bow out now.

Me:

1.) Had a disability my whole life
2.) Was mistreated but adopted the mindset of just work extra hard, and then I'll be the same
3.) Take out tons of debt
4.) Study butt off, get great grades and tons of interviews
5.) Get uniformly rejected because of the disability
6.) Career services says it's no big deal - other people feel they're discriminated against for having low grades, that I can cut my losses at a 100k or pursue public interest
7.) Slowly lose all confidence, feel hopeless, am in tons of debt. No rich relatives.

Is my depression irrational?

I am all at once feeling dumb for basing my life around the we're all equal; results are based on merit mindset, the fact I'll always be defective and the fact I am six figures in debt. I know I'm really smart, but my intelligence is a detriment because I'll never be happy unless I can use it. The worst part of the whole thing is knowing that you could have foresaw the risks coming in, that your grades would never make a difference but took a major life risk based off of bumper sticker logic. I could have just sat at home getting disability payments, and watched TV all day and have been in much better shape. All the studying all day did was make me intelligent enough to realize how much of a loser I am.

I guess what I would say is that if you have a disability that isn't obvious from first glance like being in a wheelchair, law school is a very bad idea because you are likely disqualified from the start. I hope in time law schools will either help make sure these students have their rights protected, or if they're aware of it at the time of the application have an automatic denial policy in place. The we encourage diversity but fuck your rights under the ADA mindset is really just the equivalent of saying, "No you're not an equal citizen or student, but your money is equally green."

[Anonymous User]

But I'm also not willing to say that suicidal thoughts are rational because that implies suicide is a good solution, and it's not.

That's like saying you're not willing to say that abortion is rational because it implies that abortion is a good solution, and it's not.

The only problem is that your opinion on what is or is not a good solution is irrelevant to people who are not you. And it's not like suicidal people believe that suicide is always the best solution, but it may be best solution under the circumstances.

People who are actively contemplating suicide have almost certainly thought about it longer and harder than you have, and have performed their own internal calculus about what is best for them under their circumstances. I don't understand how you are in a position to issue a blanket statement that suicide is never a rational solution, ever. Whether someone commits suicide or not (and most don't), having other people judge them for even contemplating suicide is not productive. Being judged by others for things like grades, jobs, bar passage, etc. is part of what fuels suicidal thoughts.

There's a reason why professional suicide counseling typically doesn't involve statements like "But you have so much to live for!"

[Anonymous User]

But I'm also not willing to say that suicidal thoughts are rational because that implies suicide is a good solution, and it's not.

That's like saying you're not willing to say that abortion is rational because it implies that abortion is a good solution, and it's not.

The only problem is that your opinion on what is or is not a good solution is irrelevant to people who are not you. And it's not like suicidal people believe that suicide is always the best solution, but it may be best solution under the circumstances.

People who are actively contemplating suicide have almost certainly thought about it longer and harder than you have, and have performed their own internal calculus about what is best for them under their circumstances. I don't understand how you are in a position to issue a blanket statement that suicide is never a rational solution, ever. Whether someone commits suicide or not (and most don't), having other people judge them for even contemplating suicide is not productive. Being judged by others for things like grades, jobs, bar passage, etc. is part of what fuels suicidal thoughts.

There's a reason why professional suicide counseling typically doesn't involve statements like "But you have so much to live for!"

I think even within the professional suicide counseling, there is a difference between the "But he DUMPED me" suicide rationale and the exposed pederast who attempts suicide in prison knowing that the inmates will give him prison justice in the morning. The pederast isn't getting counseling on how being gang ass raped while having your face smashed against the wall will ultimately produce fulfillment. He's on suicide watch to avoid a negligence lawsuit.

I'm not saying the debt is the same, and suicide most frequently is not the outcome the person would choose if weighing the alternatives before the onset of depression which clouds their judgment. But to say depression is always irrational and requires counseling seems wrong. Talking about your feelings is helpful but if your life is at a dire point, I fail to see how taking happy pills reducing your cognitive faculties will better the situation long term.

[PepperJack]

Hypothetically, if one were going to kill themselves but wanted to use some money to cater the funeral because the government creditors will seize it anyway, what kind of food is good at a closed casket affair? Is it all dairy? I figure if I make people miss work, the least I can do is feed them. Economically, this would balance it out as the lost wages would be offset by the income generated by the catering company. I really hope to get something on my tombstone like, "Was financially considerate."

User has been warned for this post.

[Anonymous User]

There's a nice split going on at my school right now between the jobless and disgruntled 2Ls (about 85% of us) and the more optimistic/naive 1Ls.

A lot of 1Ls are talking about how they can't wait for OCI and how they are, "so excited to be rolling in 6 figures."

A part of wanted to straight up tell them the reality of their employment prospects, but hey, who am I to do so. Let them think what they want.

[Anonymous User]

There's a nice split going on at my school right now between the jobless and disgruntled 2Ls (about 85% of us) and the more optimistic/naive 1Ls.

A lot of 1Ls are talking about how they can't wait for OCI and how they are, "so excited to be rolling in 6 figures."

A part of wanted to straight up tell them the reality of their employment prospects, but hey, who am I to do so. Let them think what they want.

The current economic model is unsustainable. Law school tuition is either going to drastically drop at some point or 90% of schools will close. The government is gonna stop lending at some point. I bet the schools just drop tuition costs. The salaries are all inflated, and they're pure profit. I'm sure law schools could sustain themselves on 10k/year tuition. I fail to see how those law review articles really produce a net benefit when you factor in their salary per hour. How often are any of them actually used in court? The academic circle jerk is cool up until the point the semen it ejaculates is composed of the blood, sweat and tears of American society.

[Anonymous User]

There's a nice split going on at my school right now between the jobless and disgruntled 2Ls (about 85% of us) and the more optimistic/naive 1Ls.

A lot of 1Ls are talking about how they can't wait for OCI and how they are, "so excited to be rolling in 6 figures."

A part of wanted to straight up tell them the reality of their employment prospects, but hey, who am I to do so. Let them think what they want.

The current economic model is unsustainable. Law school tuition is either going to drastically drop at some point or 90% of schools will close. The government is gonna stop lending at some point. I bet the schools just drop tuition costs. The salaries are all inflated, and they're pure profit. I'm sure law schools could sustain themselves on 10k/year tuition. I fail to see how those law review articles really produce a net benefit when you factor in their salary per hour. How often are any of them actually used in court? The academic circle jerk is cool up until the point the semen it ejaculates is composed of the blood, sweat and tears of American society.

What really frustrates me is the large gap between what the 1Ls hear from Career Services, and the actual reality of the job market.

Career Services to 1Ls: Oh yeah, plenty of 2Ls find high-paying jobs all throughout their 2L year.

Reality is far from that. Unless they don't understand the meaning of "plenty," and have a different interpretation of "high paying."

[Anonymous User]

There's a nice split going on at my school right now between the jobless and disgruntled 2Ls (about 85% of us) and the more optimistic/naive 1Ls.

A lot of 1Ls are talking about how they can't wait for OCI and how they are, "so excited to be rolling in 6 figures."

A part of wanted to straight up tell them the reality of their employment prospects, but hey, who am I to do so. Let them think what they want.

The current economic model is unsustainable. Law school tuition is either going to drastically drop at some point or 90% of schools will close. The government is gonna stop lending at some point. I bet the schools just drop tuition costs. The salaries are all inflated, and they're pure profit. I'm sure law schools could sustain themselves on 10k/year tuition. I fail to see how those law review articles really produce a net benefit when you factor in their salary per hour. How often are any of them actually used in court? The academic circle jerk is cool up until the point the semen it ejaculates is composed of the blood, sweat and tears of American society.

What really frustrates me is the large gap between what the 1Ls hear from Career Services, and the actual reality of the job market.

Career Services to 1Ls: Oh yeah, plenty of 2Ls find high-paying jobs all throughout their 2L year.

Reality is far from that. Unless they don't understand the meaning of "plenty," and have a different interpretation of "high paying."

It's a joke.

[Anonymous User]

Okay, apologies, all. The last thing I wanted to do was to make anyone who's depressed feel worse about themselves. I'm talking about this based on my experience with a very very very close family member who suffers from clinical depression, who, when depressed, in fact exhibits irrational thought patterns including thoughts of suicide (and my own experience with depression, for which I received treatment from a therapist and a psychiatrist, though it was less severe than my family member's). When I say this, I do so because I do consider depression a disease, and one symptom of the disease is that it distorts people's thought patterns - not because they're bad people, or stupid, or inherently poor thinkers; because they're suffering from a disease that prevents them from seeing things outside a certain perspective. But I'm also not willing to say that suicidal thoughts are rational because that implies suicide is a good solution, and it's not.

However, none of my comments were intended to stigmatize or insult anyone who suffers from depression, and if they came across that way, I am truly very sorry. Like anon above, I hope that people struggling with depression are able to get counseling that helps them, because it's a terrible experience I wouldn't wish on anyone. I'll bow out now.

I don't think you're responding to me, but I just wanted to say there's no need to apologize. At the very least, I feel like your heart is in the right place and you don't want this thread to encourage someone to commit suicide. That's cool. But you know, you're dealing with law students. So when you make blanket statements, the pedant in us will come out.

I just want a job.