Delaware vs. V100 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Where would you accept a summer offer: Delaware RLF/MNAT (145K, high level Corperete stuff, office has 100-150 lawyers, not Vault firm)

OR

a (barely) Vault firm's satellite office in a very secondary market (think Harrisburg, PA; Greensboro, NC; Cincinatti, OH; etc.) pay: 125-40K, international firm with dozens of offices and many hundreds of lawyers, pretty good name recognition.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

No one can answer this without more info. How do you feel about living/practicing in DE? How do you feel about the secondary market?

[anonymous2012]

If neither is your preferred destination long-term, I'd do the Deleware work. Regional biglaw firms are always looking for people who are admitted in Delaware and have exposure to sophisticated corporate litigation and corporate governance work.

I agree that location is a big factor here, but I'd do the DE work over doing who knows what in a satellite office of a lower ranked Vault firm.

Among the towns you listed, Cinci stands out as a place with a lot more amenities. I'd way prefer being close to Philly over living in Harrisburg or anywhere in the Winston-Salem/Greensboro/High Point area. But that's me.

[lolwat]

I have no idea what Vault ranking ANY Delaware firm might have (if RLF/MNAT aren't Vault ranked, are any of them?), but the high end DE firms are still well respected nationally, IIRC. I'd think starting at DE firm and lateraling out would be easier than starting at really weird market (is Harrisburg, PA really even a "secondary" market?), even if it's a well-recognized firm name. But I have no idea what your goals even are, I'm just assuming exit options since "prestige" (Vault/non-Vault) seems a consideration to you and that usually means looking at exit options.

[hephaestus]

I would probably go Delaware here, unless you really want to be in the secondary market.

[Anonymous User]

I have no idea what Vault ranking ANY Delaware firm might have (if RLF/MNAT aren't Vault ranked, are any of them?), but the high end DE firms are still well respected nationally, IIRC. I'd think starting at DE firm and lateraling out would be easier than starting at really weird market (is Harrisburg, PA really even a "secondary" market?), even if it's a well-recognized firm name. But I have no idea what your goals even are, I'm just assuming exit options since "prestige" (Vault/non-Vault) seems a consideration to you and that usually means looking at exit options.

Neither RLF or MNAT are vault ranked. They have great name recognition with any firm or group that uses them as local counsel (tons of firms in CA, Chicago and NYC all do) but not really otherwise.

The work you will be doing is the local counsel piece of a bigger deal or case. Your client is pretty much the big law firm that is using you as local counsel. You're going to get a lot of hands-on experience on the Delaware peice, early. You'll work directly with a partner more often than at a larger firm (dunno about regional offices comparatively). The leverage is very low at the DE firms.

[J. D.]

@$145K… easily Delaware. COL is as low as it gets without heading down south.

[Anonymous User]

@$145K… easily Delaware. COL is as low as it gets without heading down south.

Eh not so sure about that. Rents in the better neighborhoods/buildings really aren't all that cheap, parking is $150/mo near the firms, you'll definitely need a car.

[J. D.]

@$145K… easily Delaware. COL is as low as it gets without heading down south.

Eh not so sure about that. Rents in the better neighborhoods/buildings really aren't all that cheap, parking is $150/mo near the firms, you'll definitely need a car.

As much as I hate to say this…. $150.00 for parking is a steal, compared to $425-$500. A six block walk is $375. Some offer reserved parking for an extra $115. Down south monthly parking is in the $30-$50 range.

[Anonymous User]

@$145K… easily Delaware. COL is as low as it gets without heading down south.

Eh not so sure about that. Rents in the better neighborhoods/buildings really aren't all that cheap, parking is $150/mo near the firms, you'll definitely need a car.

As much as I hate to say this…. $150.00 for parking is a steal, compared to $425-$500. A six block walk is $375. Some offer reserved parking for an extra $115. Down south monthly parking is in the $30-$50 range.

But we're comparing to secondary markets. I did a quick look at luxury apartment buildings in Cinci and they're certainly cheaper than Wilmington.

[Danger Zone]

If you have any interest in the work that's done there, Delaware.


City Median Reported Salary Salary required to Yield NYC Buying Power* Buying Power Index
Dallas, TX $135,000 $70,350 1.919
Wilmington, DE 145,000 79,710 1.819
Houston, TX 115,000 65,670 1.751
Charlotte, NC 115,000 68,230 1.686
Los Angeles, CA 160,000 97,110 1.648

[Anonymous User]

I'd go the DE firm.

One thing to note is that the "cost of living" index for Wilmington is misleading. It's based on things like average housing prices, which ignores the fact that most of Wilmington is a slum. A 2BR in one of the handful of luxury buildings in Wilmington might run you $1500-1700/month, compared to a similar number for Houston and maybe $2250/month for Chicago. Drinks, food, etc, are not any cheaper here at the places you'd go to.

But yeah, if it's being 30 minutes from Philadelphia versus being in Harrisburg, the DE firm is a no-brainer.

[J. D.]

If you have any interest in the work that's done there, Delaware.


City Median Reported Salary Salary required to Yield NYC Buying Power* Buying Power Index
Dallas, TX $135,000 $70,350 1.919
Wilmington, DE 145,000 79,710 1.819
Houston, TX 115,000 65,670 1.751
Charlotte, NC 115,000 68,230 1.686
Los Angeles, CA 160,000 97,110 1.648

Good data. I just Googled Wilmington parking, $150 is a typical price. In a large metro prices are $450, plus another $100 for a reserved space… which is what you need if you don’t want spend 20 minutes trying find a space (every time you park). So figure $550 × 12 = $6,600 a year ($10K net). Outside of DE, the hits just keep on coming….

[Anonymous User]

TCR is clearly V100. Delaware prestige is way overblown.

[Anonymous User]

I have no idea what Vault ranking ANY Delaware firm might have (if RLF/MNAT aren't Vault ranked, are any of them?), but the high end DE firms are still well respected nationally, IIRC. I'd think starting at DE firm and lateraling out would be easier than starting at really weird market (is Harrisburg, PA really even a "secondary" market?), even if it's a well-recognized firm name. But I have no idea what your goals even are, I'm just assuming exit options since "prestige" (Vault/non-Vault) seems a consideration to you and that usually means looking at exit options.

Neither RLF or MNAT are vault ranked. They have great name recognition with any firm or group that uses them as local counsel (tons of firms in CA, Chicago and NYC all do) but not really otherwise.

The work you will be doing is the local counsel piece of a bigger deal or case. Your client is pretty much the big law firm that is using you as local counsel. You're going to get a lot of hands-on experience on the Delaware peice, early. You'll work directly with a partner more often than at a larger firm (dunno about regional offices comparatively). The leverage is very low at the DE firms.

TCR. It's all local counsel work. Essentially, you're a signature on someone else's brief. Who writes the brief? Someone from the V100.

[Anonymous User]

145k to sign briefs? While making contacts while being involved with the biggest names in the world? Sounds awesome.

[Anonymous User]

145k to sign briefs? While making contacts while being involved with the biggest names in the world? Sounds awesome.

The exit ops are overrated. You have to retake the bar in NYC.

[Anonymous User]

145k to sign briefs? While making contacts while being involved with the biggest names in the world? Sounds awesome.

The exit ops are overrated. You have to retake the bar in NYC.

Where do DE big 4 lawyers land if they don't make partner?

Retaking the bar is sorta a stupid reason not to go to DE.

[rayiner]

If you have any interest in the work that's done there, Delaware.


City Median Reported Salary Salary required to Yield NYC Buying Power* Buying Power Index
Dallas, TX $135,000 $70,350 1.919
Wilmington, DE 145,000 79,710 1.819
Houston, TX 115,000 65,670 1.751
Charlotte, NC 115,000 68,230 1.686
Los Angeles, CA 160,000 97,110 1.648

Good data. I just Googled Wilmington parking, $150 is a typical price. In a large metro prices are $450, plus another $100 for a reserved space… which is what you need if you don’t want spend 20 minutes trying find a space (every time you park). So figure $550 × 12 = $6,600 a year ($10K net). Outside of DE, the hits just keep on coming….

Anywhere you need to pay $550/month for parking is a place where you don't need a car! Seriously, that's Manhattan prices. Monthly parking near K and 16th (around where all the law firms are) in D.C. only runs you $240-270/month. In downtown Philly you can pay under $200 on Market Street.

Again, if you're not planning on living, shopping, eating in the ghetto, Wilmington is not cheap. There's a limited supply of yuppie-level amenities, and a decent amount of demand from all the credit card/bank people who work here, so prices aren't really that low. It's not Manhattan-expensive, but it's not Iowa cheap. You'll pay $12 for a burger, etc, just like you would in Philadelphia or Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

If you have any interest in the work that's done there, Delaware.


City Median Reported Salary Salary required to Yield NYC Buying Power* Buying Power Index
Dallas, TX $135,000 $70,350 1.919
Wilmington, DE 145,000 79,710 1.819
Houston, TX 115,000 65,670 1.751
Charlotte, NC 115,000 68,230 1.686
Los Angeles, CA 160,000 97,110 1.648

Good data. I just Googled Wilmington parking, $150 is a typical price. In a large metro prices are $450, plus another $100 for a reserved space… which is what you need if you don’t want spend 20 minutes trying find a space (every time you park). So figure $550 × 12 = $6,600 a year ($10K net). Outside of DE, the hits just keep on coming….

Anywhere you need to pay $550/month for parking is a place where you don't need a car! Seriously, that's Manhattan prices. Monthly parking near K and 16th (around where all the law firms are) in D.C. only runs you $240-270/month. In downtown Philly you can pay under $200 on Market Street.

Again, if you're not planning on living, shopping, eating in the ghetto, Wilmington is not cheap. There's a limited supply of yuppie-level amenities, and a decent amount of demand from all the credit card/bank people who work here, so prices aren't really that low. It's not Manhattan-expensive, but it's not Iowa cheap. You'll pay $12 for a burger, etc, just like you would in Philadelphia or Chicago.

Rayiner with the fantastic analysis! As always. Thanks.

[eastcoast_iub]

I have no idea what Vault ranking ANY Delaware firm might have (if RLF/MNAT aren't Vault ranked, are any of them?), but the high end DE firms are still well respected nationally, IIRC. I'd think starting at DE firm and lateraling out would be easier than starting at really weird market (is Harrisburg, PA really even a "secondary" market?), even if it's a well-recognized firm name. But I have no idea what your goals even are, I'm just assuming exit options since "prestige" (Vault/non-Vault) seems a consideration to you and that usually means looking at exit options.

Neither RLF or MNAT are vault ranked. They have great name recognition with any firm or group that uses them as local counsel (tons of firms in CA, Chicago and NYC all do) but not really otherwise.

The work you will be doing is the local counsel piece of a bigger deal or case. Your client is pretty much the big law firm that is using you as local counsel. You're going to get a lot of hands-on experience on the Delaware peice, early. You'll work directly with a partner more often than at a larger firm (dunno about regional offices comparatively). The leverage is very low at the DE firms.

TCR. It's all local counsel work. Essentially, you're a signature on someone else's brief. Who writes the brief? Someone from the V100.

Having just summered at one of the above mentioned DE firms, this is definitely not the case. It's more of a partnership than signing off on the brief. If all the V100 firms wanted was someone to sign off on a brief, there are plenty of lower-priced DE firms that can do this for them. The billing rates for partners at my firm are comparable to lower V100 firms and that is for a reason. Since the big law firm is the client, they ultimately have the final say on any differences in the final brief, but they frequently defer to DE firms b/c of their expertise.

Oh, and the COL is low. Yeah the numbers may be a little misleading, but DE is way more affordable than NYC or DC. As for the luxury apartments downtown (the Residences), no one that works at DE firms lives there. Much more affordable apartments can be found away from downtown that are in more desirable areas. And oh yeah, property tax is silly low in DE and there is no sales tax. So the CoL difference is not a mirage.

DE is definitely not the most exciting place in the world, but the work there is top-notch and you will get more hands-on experience there than you will at a V100 firm. Instead of doing bullshit doc review you will do real work.

[blsingindisguise]

If you don't want to live in Delaware you can commute from Philly or one of the nicer PA suburban areas.

[J. D.]

Mr/Ms OP... Honestly, at $145K for Delaware, you hit the ball out of the park….just run around the bases! I strongly considered Wilmington even though the firm that offered me paid $50K less than what your firm pays.

[Anonymous User]

Having just summered at one of the above mentioned DE firms, this is definitely not the case. It's more of a partnership than signing off on the brief. If all the V100 firms wanted was someone to sign off on a brief, there are plenty of lower-priced DE firms that can do this for them. The billing rates for partners at my firm are comparable to lower V100 firms and that is for a reason. Since the big law firm is the client, they ultimately have the final say on any differences in the final brief, but they frequently defer to DE firms b/c of their expertise.

Oh, and the COL is low. Yeah the numbers may be a little misleading, but DE is way more affordable than NYC or DC. As for the luxury apartments downtown (the Residences), no one that works at DE firms lives there. Much more affordable apartments can be found away from downtown that are in more desirable areas. And oh yeah, property tax is silly low in DE and there is no sales tax. So the CoL difference is not a mirage.

DE is definitely not the most exciting place in the world, but the work there is top-notch and you will get more hands-on experience there than you will at a V100 firm. Instead of doing bullshit doc review you will do real work.

You're right about the work but wrong about the housing. Lots of associates live in Justison or Christiana, and the apartments farther away that are actually nice aren't much cheaper (if they're cheaper at all). Tho I say that with the caveat that the prices they're posting on the website are inflated over what they're actually getting for those LoMa and riverfront apartments.

The whole "signing someone else's brief" thing must be coming from a place of ignorance or else having dealt with local counsel in a non-Delaware state.

[blsingindisguise]

Only crappy Delaware locals "just sign the brief." Any good ones will know the shit out of Delaware law and make all kinds of additions and improvements (if they're not drafting themselves).