what if i hate my summer firm? Forum

[Anonymous User]

having a hard time picking a firm. i have it narrowed down to 4...and they seem pretty different but i really have no idea what i want culture-wise. they all have good practices in the area i am interested in.

if i pick one of them, and end up hating it, what can i do? is there any chance to go back to one of the other firms i turned down and ask to interview again?

or would i have to work at the firm i don't like for a few years before i have a chance to lateral? will the firms i turned down even care that i turned them down if i try to interview again?

[blsingindisguise]

having a hard time picking a firm. i have it narrowed down to 4...and they seem pretty different but i really have no idea what i want culture-wise. they all have good practices in the area i am interested in.

if i pick one of them, and end up hating it, what can i do? is there any chance to go back to one of the other firms i turned down and ask to interview again?

or would i have to work at the firm i don't like for a few years before i have a chance to lateral? will the firms i turned down even care that i turned them down if i try to interview again?

It's biglaw son, you're not gonna love it no matter where you are.

[NYstate]

having a hard time picking a firm. i have it narrowed down to 4...and they seem pretty different but i really have no idea what i want culture-wise. they all have good practices in the area i am interested in.

if i pick one of them, and end up hating it, what can i do? is there any chance to go back to one of the other firms i turned down and ask to interview again?

or would i have to work at the firm i don't like for a few years before i have a chance to lateral? will the firms i turned down even care that i turned them down if i try to interview again?

It's biglaw son, you're not gonna love it no matter where you are.

People do change firms but 3L hiring is minimal.

[thegrayman]

From my anecdotal experience as an SA, the real difference is in how much the firm hides how hard they actually work when you are an SA. Once you go back as an associate, there is no more hiding it, you will work your ass off no matter what firm you are at. You might hate your summer firm simply because they are more honest about the workload you will experience as an associate, whereas another firm that has a nicer SA experience might be just as bad when you go back there as an associate.

This is all very hard to gauge going into it all. I ended up working very hard as an SA, and had no indication that would be the case going in. My expectation was that my SA position would be a cakewalk like I had heard was normal. I'm not really sure what you can do to figure something like that out beforehand.

[Lwoods]

As long as you're professional in turning down your other offers, you probably won't burn any bridges. Just be honest, be flattering, and be timely. The "easiest" way to get a full-time job post-law school is by getting an offer from your summer firm. It will be very difficult to switch to a different firm, but not necessarily impossible. Another alternative would be to apply for a judicial clerkship to buy yourself a year or two. Those aren't exactly easy to land, though.

I don't think you're wrong to be concerned about whether you'll like your working environment. While the hours are likely to be brutal in full-time practice wherever you land, the culture of a workplace can make a huge difference in how enjoyable those hours are. Additionally, it's really difficult to get a good read on a culture before you're there.

High associate turn-over is one big red flag. How soon are people leaving? Exit options are nice, of course, but is there a reason they're fleeing the firm?

One thing you can do is to consider how work is assigned. While it may seem more equitable (and more appealing to those with social discomfort) to receive work on a rotating system, it may be preferable to work in a firm that allows associates to build relationships with partners to get assigned to certain deals/cases. I tend to like the vast majority of my coworkers, but a solitary bad one can make work just awful. If you can get staffed on teams with just people you like, you have a better chance at avoiding people you dislike.

Another thing you might look at is how they treat the support staff. The companies/firms I've been to that really value and treat their support staff with respect have been better places to work overall.

Finally, there's your gut. Which one do you feel best about? You might be wrong, and if you are, you can try 3L OCI or for a clerkship (do this anyway in spring of 2L), but do what you can.

Congrats on the offers and good luck with your decision!

[Anonymous User]

How does one ask about turnover? (Post offer?)

[J. D.]

As long as you're professional in turning down your other offers, you probably won't burn any bridges. Just be honest, be flattering, and be timely. The "easiest" way to get a full-time job post-law school is by getting an offer from your summer firm. It will be very difficult to switch to a different firm, but not necessarily impossible. Another alternative would be to apply for a judicial clerkship to buy yourself a year or two. Those aren't exactly easy to land, though.

I don't think you're wrong to be concerned about whether you'll like your working environment. While the hours are likely to be brutal in full-time practice wherever you land, the culture of a workplace can make a huge difference in how enjoyable those hours are. Additionally, it's really difficult to get a good read on a culture before you're there.

High associate turn-over is one big red flag. How soon are people leaving? Exit options are nice, of course, but is there a reason they're fleeing the firm?

One thing you can do is to consider how work is assigned. While it may seem more equitable (and more appealing to those with social discomfort) to receive work on a rotating system, it may be preferable to work in a firm that allows associates to build relationships with partners to get assigned to certain deals/cases. I tend to like the vast majority of my coworkers, but a solitary bad one can make work just awful. If you can get staffed on teams with just people you like, you have a better chance at avoiding people you dislike.

Another thing you might look at is how they treat the support staff. The companies/firms I've been to that really value and treat their support staff with respect have been better places to work overall.

Finally, there's your gut. Which one do you feel best about? You might be wrong, and if you are, you can try 3L OCI or for a clerkship (do this anyway in spring of 2L), but do what you can.

Congrats on the offers and good luck with your decision!

The SA firm (NLJ 250) I was with was friendly to everyone. Most associates make partner inside of 4-7 years but there were a few in their +8 year and still had not made the partner leap. The younger associates worked long hours (given the complaints I heard). The upside is that the firm did not have a 5 years-and-out mentality. As an SA we often worked cases directly with partners. I am not quite sure what to expect from the V-100, other than I know a couple people who were SAs there and they said they liked it…but five-years-and-out is a probability.

I emailed the firm about my accepting an offer (at another firm) and immediately followed it up with a phone call (that ended up being VM). They (HR) called the next day, mainly to ask where I was going. I told them and because it is a well-known larger firm they didn’t drill down on why. We exchanged a few pleasantries and that was it. I will miss them.

[Icculus]

As long as you're professional in turning down your other offers, you probably won't burn any bridges. Just be honest, be flattering, and be timely. The "easiest" way to get a full-time job post-law school is by getting an offer from your summer firm. It will be very difficult to switch to a different firm, but not necessarily impossible. Another alternative would be to apply for a judicial clerkship to buy yourself a year or two. Those aren't exactly easy to land, though.

I don't think you're wrong to be concerned about whether you'll like your working environment. While the hours are likely to be brutal in full-time practice wherever you land, the culture of a workplace can make a huge difference in how enjoyable those hours are. Additionally, it's really difficult to get a good read on a culture before you're there.

High associate turn-over is one big red flag. How soon are people leaving? Exit options are nice, of course, but is there a reason they're fleeing the firm?

One thing you can do is to consider how work is assigned. While it may seem more equitable (and more appealing to those with social discomfort) to receive work on a rotating system, it may be preferable to work in a firm that allows associates to build relationships with partners to get assigned to certain deals/cases. I tend to like the vast majority of my coworkers, but a solitary bad one can make work just awful. If you can get staffed on teams with just people you like, you have a better chance at avoiding people you dislike.

Another thing you might look at is how they treat the support staff. The companies/firms I've been to that really value and treat their support staff with respect have been better places to work overall.

Finally, there's your gut. Which one do you feel best about? You might be wrong, and if you are, you can try 3L OCI or for a clerkship (do this anyway in spring of 2L), but do what you can.

Congrats on the offers and good luck with your decision!

The SA firm (NLJ 250) I was with was friendly to everyone. Most associates make partner inside of 4-7 years but there were a few in their +8 year and still had not made the partner leap. The younger associates worked long hours (given the complaints I heard). The upside is that the firm did not have a 5 years-and-out mentality. As an SA we often worked cases directly with partners. I am not quite sure what to expect from the V-100, other than I know a couple people who were SAs there and they said they liked it…but five-years-and-out is a probability.

I emailed the firm about my accepting an offer (at another firm) and immediately followed it up with a phone call (that ended up being VM). They (HR) called the next day, mainly to ask where I was going. I told them and because it is a well-known larger firm they didn’t drill down on why. We exchanged a few pleasantries and that was it. I will miss them.

Other than this being a straight up brag how the hell does it answer of help OP in any way?

[A. Nony Mouse]

It doesn't. At all.

[aces]

How does one ask about turnover? (Post offer?)

Ask the associate how many of the other associates who started with him/her are still with the firm. Of those who left, where did they go?

[wiz]

As long as you're professional in turning down your other offers, you probably won't burn any bridges. Just be honest, be flattering, and be timely. The "easiest" way to get a full-time job post-law school is by getting an offer from your summer firm. It will be very difficult to switch to a different firm, but not necessarily impossible. Another alternative would be to apply for a judicial clerkship to buy yourself a year or two. Those aren't exactly easy to land, though.

I don't think you're wrong to be concerned about whether you'll like your working environment. While the hours are likely to be brutal in full-time practice wherever you land, the culture of a workplace can make a huge difference in how enjoyable those hours are. Additionally, it's really difficult to get a good read on a culture before you're there.

High associate turn-over is one big red flag. How soon are people leaving? Exit options are nice, of course, but is there a reason they're fleeing the firm?

One thing you can do is to consider how work is assigned. While it may seem more equitable (and more appealing to those with social discomfort) to receive work on a rotating system, it may be preferable to work in a firm that allows associates to build relationships with partners to get assigned to certain deals/cases. I tend to like the vast majority of my coworkers, but a solitary bad one can make work just awful. If you can get staffed on teams with just people you like, you have a better chance at avoiding people you dislike.

Another thing you might look at is how they treat the support staff. The companies/firms I've been to that really value and treat their support staff with respect have been better places to work overall.

Finally, there's your gut. Which one do you feel best about? You might be wrong, and if you are, you can try 3L OCI or for a clerkship (do this anyway in spring of 2L), but do what you can.

Congrats on the offers and good luck with your decision!

The SA firm (NLJ 250) I was with was friendly to everyone. Most associates make partner inside of 4-7 years but there were a few in their +8 year and still had not made the partner leap. The younger associates worked long hours (given the complaints I heard). The upside is that the firm did not have a 5 years-and-out mentality. As an SA we often worked cases directly with partners. I am not quite sure what to expect from the V-100, other than I know a couple people who were SAs there and they said they liked it…but five-years-and-out is a probability.

I emailed the firm about my accepting an offer (at another firm) and immediately followed it up with a phone call (that ended up being VM). They (HR) called the next day, mainly to ask where I was going. I told them and because it is a well-known larger firm they didn’t drill down on why. We exchanged a few pleasantries and that was it. I will miss them.

Other than this being a straight up brag how the hell does it answer of help OP in any way?

At least he didn't post it in the vale this time. What a douche.