Cravath v. Debevoise Forum

[Anonymous User]

I don't think the hours at Cravath for associates are that much worse than other NYC biglaw (if at all). I think the sweatshop reputation is boosted by Cravath's summers working significantly more than their peers.

You can of course say that the following study is outdated but I'm not sure that things have changed at these firms in terms of # of hours from what I've heard. Debevoise was at 57.9 hours while Cravath was at 65.7. That's clearly significantly more.

http://www.averyindex.com/longest_hours.php

[Anonymous User]

Current Biglaw corporate associate - If you really want to do cap markets, Debevoise is probably the last big name firm I would go to for that in New York. They do have a varied issuers' side practice, but they have one notable client that is obscenely awful to work for (a large foreign conglomerate you've never heard of), and the deals take much longer than the average cap markets deal. There's a reason the midlevels in their cap markets group are laterals - they churn through associates in that securities practice, largely because of that client. The other work there isn't bad (I prefer issuer's side work overall to underwriter's side work, which is what most of Cravath's cap markets practice is), but that client is literally the single worst client I have heard about in the NY securities practice and you should run from there if you want to do cap markets (even just for a year). Otherwise, Deb's a good firm with good people, so if you want to do non-cap markets, there's no strong reason to pick one over the other.

Good luck with your decision. No matter where you end up, you'll be fine, so don't stress too much.

As an aside, I'm guessing 2006 mid-level associate market peak hours are probably not what a 2013 first year corp associate will work at any of those firms.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the heads up about the Deb cap markets practice. Anyone else want to chime in before I do this thing?

[Anonymous User]

Make the right choice. Debevoise.

[Anonymous User]

Debevoise associate here. I voted for Cravath. Not because of the exit options or prestige etc. etc., but simply from your post of your impressions you appear to have enjoyed your visit there more and are hesitating primarily because of rumor and what I'll call "general reputation."

If you had visited Cravath and really found it to be a sweatshop where you would be unlikely to be happy, I'd easily have said Debevoise. You need to trust your instincts and not rely on abstract criticisms of these firms. Many firms take a beating on this forum for general reputation (the S&C thread definitely provides great evidence), but I think you are doing yourself a disservice by making a decision based on unsubstantiated and subjective third party opinion. If I were you, I'd request a second look at both firms and see if your impression of either/both is reinforced or changed. Obviously you can only can limited insight into a firm's environment by a couple short visits and meeting a handful of the firm's partners/associates; however, I think based on my own experience and that of colleagues and friends that there is no better means of determining what firm is best for you than your own impressions after visiting a firm.

Good luck with your choice, you will obviously have a strong foundation for a great career at either firm. If you do happen to choose Debevoise, update the thread and I'll shoot you a PM.

[Anonymous User]

Current Biglaw corporate associate - If you really want to do cap markets, Debevoise is probably the last big name firm I would go to for that in New York. They do have a varied issuers' side practice, but they have one notable client that is obscenely awful to work for (a large foreign conglomerate you've never heard of), and the deals take much longer than the average cap markets deal. There's a reason the midlevels in their cap markets group are laterals - they churn through associates in that securities practice, largely because of that client. The other work there isn't bad (I prefer issuer's side work overall to underwriter's side work, which is what most of Cravath's cap markets practice is), but that client is literally the single worst client I have heard about in the NY securities practice and you should run from there if you want to do cap markets (even just for a year). Otherwise, Deb's a good firm with good people, so if you want to do non-cap markets, there's no strong reason to pick one over the other.

Good luck with your decision. No matter where you end up, you'll be fine, so don't stress too much.

As an aside, I'm guessing 2006 mid-level associate market peak hours are probably not what a 2013 first year corp associate will work at any of those firms.

Is this still true?

[Anonymous User]

Current Biglaw corporate associate - If you really want to do cap markets, Debevoise is probably the last big name firm I would go to for that in New York. They do have a varied issuers' side practice, but they have one notable client that is obscenely awful to work for (a large foreign conglomerate you've never heard of), and the deals take much longer than the average cap markets deal. There's a reason the midlevels in their cap markets group are laterals - they churn through associates in that securities practice, largely because of that client. The other work there isn't bad (I prefer issuer's side work overall to underwriter's side work, which is what most of Cravath's cap markets practice is), but that client is literally the single worst client I have heard about in the NY securities practice and you should run from there if you want to do cap markets (even just for a year). Otherwise, Deb's a good firm with good people, so if you want to do non-cap markets, there's no strong reason to pick one over the other.

Good luck with your decision. No matter where you end up, you'll be fine, so don't stress too much.

As an aside, I'm guessing 2006 mid-level associate market peak hours are probably not what a 2013 first year corp associate will work at any of those firms.

Is this still true?

Current Deb associate. Have rotated through the cap markets group. I have no idea what this person above is talking about.

[TigerIsBack]

I was across from Cravath once and spent a week negotiating in their offices. I'm not sure if things have changed, but I recall the entire floor had green carpets which seemed outdated and depressing. Can't comment on Debevoise's office.

I say that mostly in jest, but for my personality the look/feel of the place I'm spending most of my waking hours does matter to me.

[Anonymous User]

I was across from Cravath once and spent a week negotiating in their offices. I'm not sure if things have changed, but I recall the entire floor had green carpets which seemed outdated and depressing. Can't comment on Debevoise's office.

I say that mostly in jest, but for my personality the look/feel of the place I'm spending most of my waking hours does matter to me.

Haha, agree that Cravath’s current interior design is somewhat dizzying - and not in a good way. But both firms are moving to Hudson Yards within the next couple of years and I’d imagine they’ll have much more modern offices.

[Anonymous User]

I was across from Cravath once and spent a week negotiating in their offices. I'm not sure if things have changed, but I recall the entire floor had green carpets which seemed outdated and depressing. Can't comment on Debevoise's office.

I say that mostly in jest, but for my personality the look/feel of the place I'm spending most of my waking hours does matter to me.

Haha, agree that Cravath’s current interior design is somewhat dizzying - and not in a good way. But both firms are moving to Hudson Yards within the next couple of years and I’d imagine they’ll have much more modern offices.

Don't believe the hype. "Modern offices" really just means cubicles (and shitty fishbowl glass offices) and "collaborative spaces" that don't get used because our jobs are hardly collaborative especially in the new remote era.

[Anonymous User]

I was across from Cravath once and spent a week negotiating in their offices. I'm not sure if things have changed, but I recall the entire floor had green carpets which seemed outdated and depressing. Can't comment on Debevoise's office.

I say that mostly in jest, but for my personality the look/feel of the place I'm spending most of my waking hours does matter to me.

Haha, agree that Cravath’s current interior design is somewhat dizzying - and not in a good way. But both firms are moving to Hudson Yards within the next couple of years and I’d imagine they’ll have much more modern offices.

Don't believe the hype. "Modern offices" really just means cubicles (and shitty fishbowl glass offices) and "collaborative spaces" that don't get used because our jobs are hardly collaborative especially in the new remote era.

True. By “modern,” I just meant the nauseating green carpets would probably not be replicated by Cravath when they move into Two Manhattan West lol.

[Anonymous User]

I don't think the hours at Cravath for associates are that much worse than other NYC biglaw (if at all). I think the sweatshop reputation is boosted by Cravath's summers working significantly more than their peers.

You can of course say that the following study is outdated but I'm not sure that things have changed at these firms in terms of # of hours from what I've heard. Debevoise was at 57.9 hours while Cravath was at 65.7. That's clearly significantly more.

http://www.averyindex.com/longest_hours.php

the fuck is that link dude it takes me to some foreign casino

[Anonymous User]

I don't think the hours at Cravath for associates are that much worse than other NYC biglaw (if at all). I think the sweatshop reputation is boosted by Cravath's summers working significantly more than their peers.

You can of course say that the following study is outdated but I'm not sure that things have changed at these firms in terms of # of hours from what I've heard. Debevoise was at 57.9 hours while Cravath was at 65.7. That's clearly significantly more.

http://www.averyindex.com/longest_hours.php

the fuck is that link dude it takes me to some foreign casino

Well, you’re replying to a post from 2013, containing a (now dead) link originally published in 2006.

Here’s an archived version of the 2006 link: https://web.archive.org/web/20110312075 ... _hours.php

[Wild Card]

cravath is much more selective than debevoise, and most people don't survive very long at all, so you should pick the firm that will give you the best exit options

cravath has increidble oomph in our prestige-obsessed profession