Guide: HLS '13 General EIP/OCI Advice 4 Marginal Candidates
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:00 pm
-Most HLS students will do really nicely in EIP, but each year a few students do poorly… Each year there are students who are almost all Ps (and even LPs) who do amazingly, and others with mostly H’s that come close to striking out, or strike out. Some say this is a value judgment on your personality... but I think there is a lot of randomness in the process. This guide is written mainly for those who are at risk of striking out (which is basically unknowable until after midway through EIP), perhaps due to personality factors, and need help avoiding that.
-Me: 4H, 4P, bid Boston and a secondary market, both litigation and corporate, had 30+ EIP interviews, 2 callbacks from EIP process (only one of which turned into an offer); a further 5 callbacks from non-EIP process; 4 total job offers, accepted one T10, one T50 (split). In short, I did poorly at EIP, but improved over time by re-calibrating. Maybe this advice can save some people some of that pain…
I. General Principles
1. Project confidence.
2. If you are smiling, and they are smiling, you are doing very well. Laughing, even better. More than anything else, you want to be liked. Pretend you are the most outgoing person in the world, even if you aren't. If you can make all your interviewers smile consistently, you have the callback/job. The content of your answers matters far less (this is in contrast to scientific, structured interviews, such as those used by Teach for America and the US Foreign Service, where personality is mostly irrelevant; answer content is being judged).
3. Again, it is more about personality and making a personal connection than grades, competence, quality of your answers etc.
4. Why? Law firms can teach you to be a lawyer, but not how to be socially adept. Law firms are mostly of the view “I don’t want to work with a weirdo” – and being quiet, shy, un-confident, or non-conformist; e.g. not a super effusive, type A person = weirdo.
5. Practice the way you present yourself: speaking clearly, slowly if you tend to speed up, and address any weird personal ticks you have (blinking, touching hair…)
7. Pay attention to the (first) names of people you meet if you are bad with names… nothing says “moron” like speaking with 4 attorneys at a callback and remembering 0 names.
II. What to do if you screw up EIP:
1. If you aren’t seeing any callbacks by Wednesday night (some would say Thursday), you’ve probably screwed up, despite what reassuring words OCS is telling you. Try your best to diagnose your issues (maybe with OCS, better with a friend/3L) and adapt the next 2 days as best you can. Grab more (New York?) interview slots – a shotgun approach may save you.
2. As soon as EIP is over, if you have 2-3 callbacks or less, that very weekend, start mass-mailing law firms with your materials. Don’t be “too good” for secondary markets or firms outside the T30 or T50. Beat the hell out of the NALP directory to contact firms all over, and every single firm in your most preferred markets.
3. Mass mailing might mean, 50 firms or more per day: aim to send an email every 3-4 minutes. Don’t worry about the quality of your email: 80% of them won’t write back. Use a template (carefully) to send the same material to everyone (resume, transcript, writing sample, references). You can note in your email “cover letter available upon request.”
4. If firms write back asking you to fill out some kind of online data sheet, it is your judgment whether to mess with this; I never did, as in the time that took, I could email 3-5 more firms.
5. The key is that by acting immediately in early/mid August, you will still get channeled into the mainstream recruiting process. No recruiting manager will question “why is this guy/girl still on the market” and no firm will have filled all its spots, so you will still have a lot of options as to which firms will consider you. On the contrary, if you only realize in early September you screwed up (e.g. you do 2 callbacks, and both reject you), it will be too late for many plum positions, and as time rolls on into late September and early October, recruiting managers will increasingly be asking “why is he/she still on the market now?”
6. If anyone asks “why didn’t I see you interviewing on campus,” you might consider something like “the lottery didn’t work out,” or if they were undersubscribed, “schedule conflicts.” This can be embarrassing, as it shows you think of them as second best, but is not a deal killer (I got an offer from a firm I skipped on campus).
7. I would not be comfortable with less than 4-5 total callbacks… if EIP produces only 2-3, you need to mass mail to be certain you get a job. Most people enjoy at least a 50% conversion rate on callbacks, since a callback means you more or less have the job (or at least, you have met a minimal bar with regard to grades), but there is still random variation; don’t take any chances: by the time you have been rejected by 2-3 firms, you will have wasted precious moments in the recruiting season. Also, more callbacks = more choices on your end, including a possible split.
III. Interview Outline
1. I recommend that for at least your top pick firms at EIP, and certainly every firm you do a callback with, you prepare a written, individualized outline, in advance.
2. This is NOT a “collection of information I got from their website and NALP for me to memorize”
3. Your outline goal is to create a narrative- to explain how your past experience, your whole life, has all been leading to a culmination of working for firm XXX in practice area YYY in region ZZZ.
4. Of course, some components will be common from firm to firm – if you have “4 reasons I want to be a litigator,” you can use that for all your litigation oriented firms. Or “reasons I want to be in Seattle.”
5. If you are like most HLS students, and don’t care a great deal what you do, or don’t have any idea, advice differs, but I'm of the school of thought that it is bad to say “I’m not sure – I see myself as a litigator, but I’d also love to explore corporate work.” Just pick whichever area the firm is strongest in/ the firm has the most positions in, and say that this is your true calling. If you want to explore both corporate and litigation during the summer, you could do this at one firm, after you have an offer in hand.
6. Your job as a lawyer is to persuade people – if you can’t persuade them that firm XXX, practice area YYY, region ZZZ is your one true calling, they surely won’t believe you will be persuasive elsewhere.
7. In the end, it is a test of your ability to speak and argue… and be liked
8. Who are you trying to convince? The partners. At EIP, you will interview with a mix of partners and associates. At callbacks, you will usually interview with 2 partners (usually 1 is on the hiring committee), 2 associates, and have 2 people (usually associates) take you to lunch. The partners are what matters. You need to strike it out of the ballpark with partners. In other words, if you do mediocre with the partners, and great with associates, tough luck, no job. If you do great with the partners and mediocre with the associates, you’ve got a job. Whatever the partners decide, the associates aren’t going to change the partners’ minds (unless you are a truly marginal candidate). If you find it difficult to be “on” for 4 hours during a callback, remember what really counts: the partners, the partners, the partners (and, in the firm that puts associates on the hiring committee, them too). Moreover, the partners that are on the hiring committee – if you can somehow scope out who this is, you might spend extra time prepping for them.
9. Speaking of researching the people you will interview with – walking in and showing them you know their life history will creep them out. Know it, at least for callbacks, so your comments are calibrated to complement their background (both from state X, both interested in activity Y), or at least that you don’t accidentally say something offensive about their background.
10. All the questions are pat, and the answers are pat – they have heard it all before, and 20 times already today at EIP. It is a question of whether or not you can do the dance.
11. Obviously, do your general research on the firm – summer program, practices, recent big cases, etc, but this is of secondary importance. Keen insight into the firm’s structure is less valuable than (1) convincing them you are totally devoted to being at firm XXX, city YYY, practice area ZZZ (2) convincing them to like you, and that you are a good colleague, and they can show you to clients without you embarrassing everyone.
Golden rule: if you cannot use your narrative to convince yourself you want to work for the firm, you can’t convince them.
IV. Sample Interview Outline
For any “why” question, try to have 3 rationales/reasons
A. Why this firm?
i. Amazing people
ii. Free market
iii. Great training
iv. Well managed
v. Excels in practice area XXX where I want to be, because of my past experiences YYYY
B. Why this region?
i. I’m from here
ii. Lots of friends here
iii. Family here
iv. Great place to live, cost of living, etc
v. No better place to work in practice area XXX (e.g. finance NYC, antitrust DC)
C. Where else are you interviewing?
i. Either claim just 1 region, or claim 2 regions max. Not “open mind.”
D. Narrative
i. Have a story, incorporating undergrad studies, undergrad extracurriculars, work experience, HLS courses and extracurriculars, which all demonstrate various knowledge/capabilities/traits (hardworking, interest in economics, whatever), which all explain why you want to be with Firm X practice area Y region Z, and in fact have wanted this to be the outcome your whole life.
ii. You can always pad this with future intentions, e.g., “I will be taking securities litigation next semester”
iii. You can/should have a different narrative for each firm, or firm type (region, practice area focus, etc)
E. Why this practice area?
i. Litigation: Have to be commercial, think about money, variety and change, writing and research, love role of an advocate, “I’ve done trial advocacy workshop, moot court, Ames, Evidence, loved civ pro, torts, I’m in defenders, whatever”
ii. Corporate: Economics background, finance background, taking corporations, bankruptcy, efficient allocation of capital fascinates me.
F. Tell me about your past experience XXXX on your resume
i. I never really thought this question was of prime importance
ii. Whatever the experience is, make sure to explain what skills/knowledge/character traits you gained, and how they fit perfectly with the job you want
iii. It is nice to see you are passionate about what you have done.
G. Explain to me why you chose to pursue past experience XXXX on your resume? Explain to me what you learned from past experience XXXX?
i. Whatever the experience is, make sure to explain what skills/knowledge/character traits you gained, and how they fit perfectly with the job you want
ii. E.g., I learned about legal research, writing, attention to detail, initiative, whatever
H. What distinguishes our firm in your mind? Why us?
i. This is a bullshit question (to a degree): you're rarely in a position to make this judgment at EIP. Correct answer: (1) Culture and People (2) Practice area capabilities/ the work/renowned for excellence in practice XXX (3) the location
I. Why did you decide to become a lawyer?
i. (1) intellectually challenging (2) high responsibility (3) work that matters (4) constant learning (5) helping people reach business goals NOT: (1) love arguing (2) want money (3) couldn’t figure out what to do with my life
J. What have been your favorite classes?
i. You may want to align what you say are “favorites” with the firm’s work. If they are litigation oriented, cite civ pro, torts, evidence, trial advocacy, Ames, etc. If corporate, obviously corporations, bankruptcy, maybe property.
ii. Why your favorite? (1) economics (2) incentives, risk, reward (3) procedurally driven
K. What are your outside interests?
i. Don’t lie: it is better to say something vanilla like “cooking with my girlfriend and spending time with my friends” than to fudge an interest in sports/music/whatever.
L. Tell me something that is not on your resume?
i. I never really figured out a great answer to this one. It kind of depends on whether you are an inherently interesting person, or your life is just your work, right?
M. Questions for Interviewers
i. Most interviews are 50% questions; some are even 100% questions from the student
ii. Use the questions as signaling devices about your work ethic, seriousness, interests, commitment to the firm.
iii. When they answer, focus on grabbing onto things they say and spinning them into new questions, or replying with affirmation and expansion on what they just said. Make sure that when they stop talking, you have a new question ready, or are ready to reiterate/applaud something they said (“It’s great to hear you describe the amount of work recently popping up from the Google antitrust case, that’s what I’m really interested in” “I’m so glad to hear your comments on firm culture; that really jives with what I have read, and what I want from a firm”
iv. Questions for associates:
1. Types of projects I might see in the your section presently
2. what makes you successful here?
3. Evaluation system
4. What do they think are the advantages and disadvantages to specializing in their area
5. How would you describe the culture of the firm
6. what cases/types of cases have you seen recently
v. Questions for Partners:
1. The partnership’s vision for the firm and strategic plans
2. Your approach to business development
vi. A question that attorneys love, and which is a real rarity, is one that demonstrates you have some tiny inkling of what their area of law is about (Oh, you practice bankruptcy, what is your opinion on the move toward straight sales over restructurings? Oh, you are doing derivatives, how has Dodd Frank affected your practice? Oh, you do antitrust, what did you think about the Google case not going forward?). This only works if you have a non-retarded question to ask them, that is pertinent to their practice.
GOOD LUCK!
-Me: 4H, 4P, bid Boston and a secondary market, both litigation and corporate, had 30+ EIP interviews, 2 callbacks from EIP process (only one of which turned into an offer); a further 5 callbacks from non-EIP process; 4 total job offers, accepted one T10, one T50 (split). In short, I did poorly at EIP, but improved over time by re-calibrating. Maybe this advice can save some people some of that pain…
I. General Principles
1. Project confidence.
2. If you are smiling, and they are smiling, you are doing very well. Laughing, even better. More than anything else, you want to be liked. Pretend you are the most outgoing person in the world, even if you aren't. If you can make all your interviewers smile consistently, you have the callback/job. The content of your answers matters far less (this is in contrast to scientific, structured interviews, such as those used by Teach for America and the US Foreign Service, where personality is mostly irrelevant; answer content is being judged).
3. Again, it is more about personality and making a personal connection than grades, competence, quality of your answers etc.
4. Why? Law firms can teach you to be a lawyer, but not how to be socially adept. Law firms are mostly of the view “I don’t want to work with a weirdo” – and being quiet, shy, un-confident, or non-conformist; e.g. not a super effusive, type A person = weirdo.
5. Practice the way you present yourself: speaking clearly, slowly if you tend to speed up, and address any weird personal ticks you have (blinking, touching hair…)
7. Pay attention to the (first) names of people you meet if you are bad with names… nothing says “moron” like speaking with 4 attorneys at a callback and remembering 0 names.
II. What to do if you screw up EIP:
1. If you aren’t seeing any callbacks by Wednesday night (some would say Thursday), you’ve probably screwed up, despite what reassuring words OCS is telling you. Try your best to diagnose your issues (maybe with OCS, better with a friend/3L) and adapt the next 2 days as best you can. Grab more (New York?) interview slots – a shotgun approach may save you.
2. As soon as EIP is over, if you have 2-3 callbacks or less, that very weekend, start mass-mailing law firms with your materials. Don’t be “too good” for secondary markets or firms outside the T30 or T50. Beat the hell out of the NALP directory to contact firms all over, and every single firm in your most preferred markets.
3. Mass mailing might mean, 50 firms or more per day: aim to send an email every 3-4 minutes. Don’t worry about the quality of your email: 80% of them won’t write back. Use a template (carefully) to send the same material to everyone (resume, transcript, writing sample, references). You can note in your email “cover letter available upon request.”
4. If firms write back asking you to fill out some kind of online data sheet, it is your judgment whether to mess with this; I never did, as in the time that took, I could email 3-5 more firms.
5. The key is that by acting immediately in early/mid August, you will still get channeled into the mainstream recruiting process. No recruiting manager will question “why is this guy/girl still on the market” and no firm will have filled all its spots, so you will still have a lot of options as to which firms will consider you. On the contrary, if you only realize in early September you screwed up (e.g. you do 2 callbacks, and both reject you), it will be too late for many plum positions, and as time rolls on into late September and early October, recruiting managers will increasingly be asking “why is he/she still on the market now?”
6. If anyone asks “why didn’t I see you interviewing on campus,” you might consider something like “the lottery didn’t work out,” or if they were undersubscribed, “schedule conflicts.” This can be embarrassing, as it shows you think of them as second best, but is not a deal killer (I got an offer from a firm I skipped on campus).
7. I would not be comfortable with less than 4-5 total callbacks… if EIP produces only 2-3, you need to mass mail to be certain you get a job. Most people enjoy at least a 50% conversion rate on callbacks, since a callback means you more or less have the job (or at least, you have met a minimal bar with regard to grades), but there is still random variation; don’t take any chances: by the time you have been rejected by 2-3 firms, you will have wasted precious moments in the recruiting season. Also, more callbacks = more choices on your end, including a possible split.
III. Interview Outline
1. I recommend that for at least your top pick firms at EIP, and certainly every firm you do a callback with, you prepare a written, individualized outline, in advance.
2. This is NOT a “collection of information I got from their website and NALP for me to memorize”
3. Your outline goal is to create a narrative- to explain how your past experience, your whole life, has all been leading to a culmination of working for firm XXX in practice area YYY in region ZZZ.
4. Of course, some components will be common from firm to firm – if you have “4 reasons I want to be a litigator,” you can use that for all your litigation oriented firms. Or “reasons I want to be in Seattle.”
5. If you are like most HLS students, and don’t care a great deal what you do, or don’t have any idea, advice differs, but I'm of the school of thought that it is bad to say “I’m not sure – I see myself as a litigator, but I’d also love to explore corporate work.” Just pick whichever area the firm is strongest in/ the firm has the most positions in, and say that this is your true calling. If you want to explore both corporate and litigation during the summer, you could do this at one firm, after you have an offer in hand.
6. Your job as a lawyer is to persuade people – if you can’t persuade them that firm XXX, practice area YYY, region ZZZ is your one true calling, they surely won’t believe you will be persuasive elsewhere.
7. In the end, it is a test of your ability to speak and argue… and be liked
8. Who are you trying to convince? The partners. At EIP, you will interview with a mix of partners and associates. At callbacks, you will usually interview with 2 partners (usually 1 is on the hiring committee), 2 associates, and have 2 people (usually associates) take you to lunch. The partners are what matters. You need to strike it out of the ballpark with partners. In other words, if you do mediocre with the partners, and great with associates, tough luck, no job. If you do great with the partners and mediocre with the associates, you’ve got a job. Whatever the partners decide, the associates aren’t going to change the partners’ minds (unless you are a truly marginal candidate). If you find it difficult to be “on” for 4 hours during a callback, remember what really counts: the partners, the partners, the partners (and, in the firm that puts associates on the hiring committee, them too). Moreover, the partners that are on the hiring committee – if you can somehow scope out who this is, you might spend extra time prepping for them.
9. Speaking of researching the people you will interview with – walking in and showing them you know their life history will creep them out. Know it, at least for callbacks, so your comments are calibrated to complement their background (both from state X, both interested in activity Y), or at least that you don’t accidentally say something offensive about their background.
10. All the questions are pat, and the answers are pat – they have heard it all before, and 20 times already today at EIP. It is a question of whether or not you can do the dance.
11. Obviously, do your general research on the firm – summer program, practices, recent big cases, etc, but this is of secondary importance. Keen insight into the firm’s structure is less valuable than (1) convincing them you are totally devoted to being at firm XXX, city YYY, practice area ZZZ (2) convincing them to like you, and that you are a good colleague, and they can show you to clients without you embarrassing everyone.
Golden rule: if you cannot use your narrative to convince yourself you want to work for the firm, you can’t convince them.
IV. Sample Interview Outline
For any “why” question, try to have 3 rationales/reasons
A. Why this firm?
i. Amazing people
ii. Free market
iii. Great training
iv. Well managed
v. Excels in practice area XXX where I want to be, because of my past experiences YYYY
B. Why this region?
i. I’m from here
ii. Lots of friends here
iii. Family here
iv. Great place to live, cost of living, etc
v. No better place to work in practice area XXX (e.g. finance NYC, antitrust DC)
C. Where else are you interviewing?
i. Either claim just 1 region, or claim 2 regions max. Not “open mind.”
D. Narrative
i. Have a story, incorporating undergrad studies, undergrad extracurriculars, work experience, HLS courses and extracurriculars, which all demonstrate various knowledge/capabilities/traits (hardworking, interest in economics, whatever), which all explain why you want to be with Firm X practice area Y region Z, and in fact have wanted this to be the outcome your whole life.
ii. You can always pad this with future intentions, e.g., “I will be taking securities litigation next semester”
iii. You can/should have a different narrative for each firm, or firm type (region, practice area focus, etc)
E. Why this practice area?
i. Litigation: Have to be commercial, think about money, variety and change, writing and research, love role of an advocate, “I’ve done trial advocacy workshop, moot court, Ames, Evidence, loved civ pro, torts, I’m in defenders, whatever”
ii. Corporate: Economics background, finance background, taking corporations, bankruptcy, efficient allocation of capital fascinates me.
F. Tell me about your past experience XXXX on your resume
i. I never really thought this question was of prime importance
ii. Whatever the experience is, make sure to explain what skills/knowledge/character traits you gained, and how they fit perfectly with the job you want
iii. It is nice to see you are passionate about what you have done.
G. Explain to me why you chose to pursue past experience XXXX on your resume? Explain to me what you learned from past experience XXXX?
i. Whatever the experience is, make sure to explain what skills/knowledge/character traits you gained, and how they fit perfectly with the job you want
ii. E.g., I learned about legal research, writing, attention to detail, initiative, whatever
H. What distinguishes our firm in your mind? Why us?
i. This is a bullshit question (to a degree): you're rarely in a position to make this judgment at EIP. Correct answer: (1) Culture and People (2) Practice area capabilities/ the work/renowned for excellence in practice XXX (3) the location
I. Why did you decide to become a lawyer?
i. (1) intellectually challenging (2) high responsibility (3) work that matters (4) constant learning (5) helping people reach business goals NOT: (1) love arguing (2) want money (3) couldn’t figure out what to do with my life
J. What have been your favorite classes?
i. You may want to align what you say are “favorites” with the firm’s work. If they are litigation oriented, cite civ pro, torts, evidence, trial advocacy, Ames, etc. If corporate, obviously corporations, bankruptcy, maybe property.
ii. Why your favorite? (1) economics (2) incentives, risk, reward (3) procedurally driven
K. What are your outside interests?
i. Don’t lie: it is better to say something vanilla like “cooking with my girlfriend and spending time with my friends” than to fudge an interest in sports/music/whatever.
L. Tell me something that is not on your resume?
i. I never really figured out a great answer to this one. It kind of depends on whether you are an inherently interesting person, or your life is just your work, right?
M. Questions for Interviewers
i. Most interviews are 50% questions; some are even 100% questions from the student
ii. Use the questions as signaling devices about your work ethic, seriousness, interests, commitment to the firm.
iii. When they answer, focus on grabbing onto things they say and spinning them into new questions, or replying with affirmation and expansion on what they just said. Make sure that when they stop talking, you have a new question ready, or are ready to reiterate/applaud something they said (“It’s great to hear you describe the amount of work recently popping up from the Google antitrust case, that’s what I’m really interested in” “I’m so glad to hear your comments on firm culture; that really jives with what I have read, and what I want from a firm”
iv. Questions for associates:
1. Types of projects I might see in the your section presently
2. what makes you successful here?
3. Evaluation system
4. What do they think are the advantages and disadvantages to specializing in their area
5. How would you describe the culture of the firm
6. what cases/types of cases have you seen recently
v. Questions for Partners:
1. The partnership’s vision for the firm and strategic plans
2. Your approach to business development
vi. A question that attorneys love, and which is a real rarity, is one that demonstrates you have some tiny inkling of what their area of law is about (Oh, you practice bankruptcy, what is your opinion on the move toward straight sales over restructurings? Oh, you are doing derivatives, how has Dodd Frank affected your practice? Oh, you do antitrust, what did you think about the Google case not going forward?). This only works if you have a non-retarded question to ask them, that is pertinent to their practice.
GOOD LUCK!