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Ok, so I'm at school last night & this girl is doing the ugly cry to her friend right outside of the building. So I decide to linger around and eavesdrop - judge me for it. I have no idea where she's working, but from what I could gather it's at least midlaw, if not biglaw. Apparently she was brought into one of the supervising attorney's office and strongly encouraged to take advantage of their group plan at one of the gyms. Her friend told her to shrug it off and this girl went on like a 10 minute rant about all the things they've said to her (i.e. at group lunches encouraging salads, discussing the health risks of being overweight, etc.). In the essence of full disclosure, I could only hear bits & pieces of the conversation, but I heard enough to put the pieces together - she's concerned about getting no offered because she's fat.

At first I didn't really think much of it, I mean she's a big girl I'm not going to lie, but it didn't ruin my night. However, I was discussing this with some of my colleagues today and some of them indicated that overweight associate = sloppy look = not good presenation to clients.

Any thoughts?

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If the stuff about the salads and the gym is true, it's incredibly unprofessional--not to mention just some cold shit.

If they are paying for her insurance, or planning to, it's probably financially motivated. Fats cost more.

Also, yes, being fat presents an initial negative impression, and that's hard to overcome.

kalvano wrote:Also, yes, being fat presents an initial negative impression, and that's hard to overcome.

but they hired her. if they were concerned about it they wouldn't have given her an offer

lukertin wrote:

kalvano wrote:Also, yes, being fat presents an initial negative impression, and that's hard to overcome.

but they hired her. if they were concerned about it they wouldn't have given her an offer

She overcame it, obviously. But if they weren't concerned about it, they wouldn't be telling her to get less fat.

lukertin wrote:but they hired her. if they were concerned about it they wouldn't have given her an offer

I initially thought this too, but there must be something that changed - I was thinking maybe a cleint said something. Maybe she doesn't dress well for her weight?

Bronte wrote:If the stuff about the salads and the gym is true, it's incredibly unprofessional--not to mention just some cold shit.

Agreed. One of the attorney's at my firm was outraged when I told him the story. Maybe it was presented to her in a different way than how she was telling her friend. I'm also beginning to hope that she misunderstood what was being said, but from what I've heard, she's probably got it right.

Thanks for responding guys. I was debating on posting the thread at all because I didn't want to be "that kid" but my curiosity got the best of me!

During OCI, I believe that I may have been judged immensely for being overweight. I was 80 pounds overweight at the time. Since then I've lost those 80 pounds and interviews go much better.

That said, my confidence is much better since losing the weight as well. I also know that I asked every wrong question in the book during OCI, which I do not do now.

Was it the weight, the way I presented myself/answered questions/questions I asked, or a combination? I'll never know for sure, but I suspect weight played at least a partial role in my previous failures.

Probably gonna open a can of worms...

Okay, being overweight has a variety of causes, yada yada yada. I'll make the really bad assumption that this girl doesn't have a thyroid problem or whatever and that she's overweight because she doesn't exercise and inhales bad food all the time.

That being said, I really don't think there's anything inherently wrong with encouraging people to make healthier choices and live better lives. Obviously there are ways to present it and ways not to present it, but if a company is going to put its money where its mouth is and offer stuff like group gym plans and healthier options at events, it isn't unreasonable to expect employees to actually take advantage of these benefits. Heck, the company I work for now gives me money if I maintain a healthy weight.

Yeah, being in shape and more attractive helps in every aspect of life, especially careers where rich white dudes are in charge. I won a pitch competition to VC's in college mostly because I got one of the attractive people in class to dress like a skank and do the pitch I did the Q&A.

Ultimately, it's up to people to use or not use the information that's readily available and make good or stupid decisions. If somebody wants to eat junk all the time or go to Cooley at sticker, I can't stop them, but consequences are consequences.

Looks like I got scooped by someone else that lost weight. Good on you.

I assume the supervisor is just an aspie retard. But you still have to worry about the subconscious effect your fatness will have on people.

Here's more anecdata: the only fat women big/midlaw attorneys I've seen [so, obviously, limited sample] have been very, very, very good at their jobs.

(By this I mean, significantly overweight, not could-stand-to-lose-20lbs overweight.)

Personally, I think the "their insurance costs more" line is crap, because I've never seen any statistics that support this, and there are lots of other ways attorneys can give themselves health problems (and therefore cost money) that don't get scrutinized in the same way. But I'm not going to say no one notices weight or that it doesn't matter. And having people at work bring it up would SUCK. (Believe me, it's not like the girl didn't know she was fat before the attorneys brought it up.)

I don't know. I'm pretty big and there are attorneys here that are even more overweight. If it matters at all I think it only matters for women.

y2zipper wrote: That being said, I really don't think there's anything inherently wrong with encouraging people to make healthier choices and live better lives. Obviously there are ways to present it and ways not to present it, but if a company is going to put its money where its mouth is and offer stuff like group gym plans and healthier options at events, it isn't unreasonable to expect employees to actually take advantage of these benefits. Heck, the company I work for now gives me money if I maintain a healthy weight.

I agree 100%. My dad's company lowers their health insurance premiums if a majority of employees participate in some program where they do some physical activities and go for a check up every 6 months.

Anonymous User wrote:During OCI, I believe that I may have been judged immensely for being overweight. I was 80 pounds overweight at the time. Since then I've lost those 80 pounds and interviews go much better.

That said, my confidence is much better since losing the weight as well. I also know that I asked every wrong question in the book during OCI, which I do not do now.

Was it the weight, the way I presented myself/answered questions/questions I asked, or a combination? I'll never know for sure, but I suspect weight played at least a partial role in my previous failures.

Congrats on losing 80 pounds, that's awesome!!

From a business standpoint, it's heartless but makes sense. Insurance is a factor, but I'd say status and appearance are the bigger ones. There's a dichotomy in which overweight women are pretty much inherently viewed as low status. Overweight men can be viewed as jolly, warm, etc. whereas overweight women would pretty much invariably "be better off losing a few pounds." I am against gender bias, but I don't think the encouragement of an employee to lose weight is wrong. Instead, they should encourage all overweight employees to lose weight

y2zipper wrote:Probably gonna open a can of worms...

Okay, being overweight has a variety of causes, yada yada yada. I'll make the really bad assumption that this girl doesn't have a thyroid problem or whatever and that she's overweight because she doesn't exercise and inhales bad food all the time.

That being said, I really don't think there's anything inherently wrong with encouraging people to make healthier choices and live better lives. Obviously there are ways to present it and ways not to present it, but if a company is going to put its money where its mouth is and offer stuff like group gym plans and healthier options at events, it isn't unreasonable to expect employees to actually take advantage of these benefits. Heck, the company I work for now gives me money if I maintain a healthy weight.

Yeah, being in shape and more attractive helps in every aspect of life, especially careers where rich white dudes are in charge. I won a pitch competition to VC's in college mostly because I got one of the attractive people in class to dress like a skank and do the pitch I did the Q&A.

Ultimately, it's up to people to use or not use the information that's readily available and make good or stupid decisions. If somebody wants to eat junk all the time or go to Cooley at sticker, I can't stop them, but consequences are consequences.

Looks like I got scooped by someone else that lost weight. Good on you.

I'm not trying to argue because I'm lazy and leaving work in 8 minutes and I'm not particularly offended by your post, but that's just not really how being fat works. Some people are just naturally fat, and a lot of people are fat and healthy.

Like, how do you define fat? That's a problematic question in and of itself. The BMI system is completely fucked.

To piggy back on BluePurgatory's post above: Chris Christie recently responded to a question about whether he'd be running for the Presidency in 2016 with something to the effect of "Nah... and I love eating burgers too much". Granted, the President is someone who would have to champion healthy dieting, but I think that statement alone demonstrates how big of a "thing" being very overweight is perception-wise. And law is one of the most perception-driven professions. Not saying it's right, but it is reality.

I think bad decisions lead to weight gain. But it's a lot harder than some people think to lose weight for a variety of reasons.

E.g, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... found.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magaz ... wanted=all

Edit: didn't mean to make anon.

Anonymous User wrote:I don't know. I'm pretty big and there are attorneys here that are even more overweight. If it matters at all I think it only matters for women.

As someone who could stand to drop a few, thank god

kalvano wrote:If they are paying for her insurance, or planning to, it's probably financially motivated. Fats cost more.

No. It doesn't.

If she were to create out-of-proportion insurance claims, then perhaps she could have some mild impact on the per-person premiums they pay, but that impact generally only accompanies something like organ failure, systemic disease, or cancer.

Anonymous User wrote:I think bad decisions lead to weight gain. But it's a lot harder than some people think to lose weight for a variety of reasons.

E.g, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie ... found.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magaz ... wanted=all

Edit: didn't mean to make anon.

The articles you linked don't support your point at all but actually support the idea that some people are just naturally fat.

BVest wrote:

kalvano wrote:If they are paying for her insurance, or planning to, it's probably financially motivated. Fats cost more.

No. It doesn't.

If she were to create out-of-proportion insurance claims, then perhaps she could have some mild impact on the per-person premiums they pay, but that impact generally only accompanies something like organ failure, systemic disease, or cancer.

Fats are more prone to heart disease and other systemic diseases, such as diabetes. Treatment for those diseases costs a good deal of money, which the insurance companies pass on to the employer in terms of higher premiums. I'm not saying it's a sound move by the employer to criticize her like this, but the cost is likely in the back of their mind.

Also, a number of insurance companies these days give discounts for healthy employees, smoke-free employees, that sort of thing.

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kalvano wrote:[Fats are more prone to heart disease and other systemic diseases, such as diabetes. Treatment for those diseases costs a good deal of money, which the insurance companies pass on to the employer in terms of higher premiums. I'm not saying it's a sound move by the employer to criticize her like this, but the cost is likely in the back of their mind.

When you're 50. This a girl presumably mid-20s. Unless they're certain she'll make partner and are trying to budget 25 years down the road, the 37 y-o partner with tennis elbow is a bigger drain on their insurance budget... or even worse, the 5th year associate who's pregnant -- again!

Redfactor wrote:

francesfarmer wrote:

y2zipper wrote:Probably gonna open a can of worms...

Okay, being overweight has a variety of causes, yada yada yada. I'll make the really bad assumption that this girl doesn't have a thyroid problem or whatever and that she's overweight because she doesn't exercise and inhales bad food all the time.

That being said, I really don't think there's anything inherently wrong with encouraging people to make healthier choices and live better lives. Obviously there are ways to present it and ways not to present it, but if a company is going to put its money where its mouth is and offer stuff like group gym plans and healthier options at events, it isn't unreasonable to expect employees to actually take advantage of these benefits. Heck, the company I work for now gives me money if I maintain a healthy weight.

Yeah, being in shape and more attractive helps in every aspect of life, especially careers where rich white dudes are in charge. I won a pitch competition to VC's in college mostly because I got one of the attractive people in class to dress like a skank and do the pitch I did the Q&A.

Ultimately, it's up to people to use or not use the information that's readily available and make good or stupid decisions. If somebody wants to eat junk all the time or go to Cooley at sticker, I can't stop them, but consequences are consequences.

Looks like I got scooped by someone else that lost weight. Good on you.

I'm not trying to argue because I'm lazy and leaving work in 8 minutes and I'm not particularly offended by your post, but that's just not really how being fat works. Some people are just naturally fat, and a lot of people are fat and healthy.

Like, how do you define fat? That's a problematic question in and of itself. The BMI system is completely fucked.

Actually, it's very simple. Calories taken in vs. calories burned determines size. Amount / type of exercise determines body composition.

Some people are naturally good at the LSAT. Others require more practice / study, but everyone is capable of getting a respectable score if they choose to. Same thing with weight. People can make all the excuses they want about being fat, but the fact is they haven't prioritized moderation / healthy lifestyles if they're obese.

It's really not that simple, and the criteria for determining whether someone is "obese" is deeply flawed itself. BMI charts are bullshit. If you disagree with that basic point I don't really know where to begin with you.

BVest wrote:

kalvano wrote:[Fats are more prone to heart disease and other systemic diseases, such as diabetes. Treatment for those diseases costs a good deal of money, which the insurance companies pass on to the employer in terms of higher premiums. I'm not saying it's a sound move by the employer to criticize her like this, but the cost is likely in the back of their mind.

When you're 50. This a girl presumably mid-20s. Unless they're certain she'll make partner and are trying to budget 25 years down the road, the 37 y-o partner with tennis elbow is a bigger drain on their insurance budget... or even worse, the 5th year associate who's pregnant -- again!

Fats aren't protected like olds and knocked-ups.