Top Law Schools

Some firms on Vault 100 have like 33 out of 33 offers (Shearman), some have 119 out of 123 (LW) and one has 88 out of 94 (MoFo). Is the third one bad sign or is it a strong enough offer rate to not worry? I am not a current SA (rising 2L) but I am just curious as to what others think when the offer rate is not 100% and is >1-2 people from being a 100% offer rate...

Some firms liberally use cold offers so those rates might not be representative.

Morgan12Oak wrote:Some firms liberally use cold offers so those rates might not be representative.

V(low number) associate here: I don't know of any firms that liberally use cold offers. They're also explicitly prohibited by the NALP rules.

To the OP - an offer rate under 100% will be a cause for concern, because it will make the summer feel much more like a tryout. Why go to a firm where you might not get an offer if you have the choice of going somewhere that you aren't expected to prove yourself?

Anonymous User wrote:

Morgan12Oak wrote:Some firms liberally use cold offers so those rates might not be representative.

V(low number) associate here: I don't know of any firms that liberally use cold offers. They're also explicitly prohibited by the NALP rules.

To the OP - an offer rate under 100% will be a cause for concern, because it will make the summer feel much more like a tryout. Why go to a firm where you might not get an offer if you have the choice of going somewhere that you aren't expected to prove yourself?

to be fair, NALP doesn't have any enforcement power though, does it?

Also, offer rates vary by office. Some firms, in their prominent or flagship offices, give 100% offer rates, whereas other offices don't have the same offer rates. My firm, for example, only had about an 80% firmwide offer rate, but my office specifically mentioned that they took pride in making 100% offers year after year, even during the recession years.

JamMasterJ wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Morgan12Oak wrote:Some firms liberally use cold offers so those rates might not be representative.

V(low number) associate here: I don't know of any firms that liberally use cold offers. They're also explicitly prohibited by the NALP rules.

To the OP - an offer rate under 100% will be a cause for concern, because it will make the summer feel much more like a tryout. Why go to a firm where you might not get an offer if you have the choice of going somewhere that you aren't expected to prove yourself?

to be fair, NALP doesn't have any enforcement power though, does it?

They don't, and I have of course heard of the occasional cold offer. But market forces and peer pressure and non-binding rules do have some impact, at least enough to make me skeptical that there are firms which "liberally use cold offers."

Some of it might be firms that allow split summers vs those that don't. I think the general rule is that, at a "peer firm," you'd have to mess up badly to get no-offered, but that rule doesn't necessarily apply if you're splitting between two offices or two firms.

Anonymous User wrote:Some of it might be firms that allow split summers vs those that don't. I think the general rule is that, at a "peer firm," you'd have to mess up badly to get no-offered, but that rule doesn't necessarily apply if you're splitting between two offices or two firms.

When people talk about peer firms, it's in some context. Jones day has peer firms and Cravath has peer firms, but no firms are "peer firms" in a vacuum.

You're certainly right though that firms with split summers (especially common in Texas) often have lower offer rates.

Sometimes it's just a fluke too - even firms with strong offer rates might no offer one or two people who look like they would be a liability. But if a firm is PLANNING to prune 10-20% of its summer class... that's a stressor I imagine few would want to take on voluntarily.

Whether you want to risk firms that no offer is a personal question of risk. Though I'd say if you are reading TLS, you probably want to hedge against your rotten personality.

But when you are making that choice you gotta consider your data size. If offices you are are looking are small, you still don't have a ton of data. 10/10 may be 100% but it's not a REAL 100%. Because everyone that year might have been good enough for an offer. I'd say to look at historical data from 2010-2013, but that doesn't seem to exist. But plenty of firms ding aspies but only have an aspie every other year.

So I'd really only factor offer rate in for firms with low, below 85%, or constant 100%. Not a ton of V100's fall into either category.

Morgan12Oak wrote:Some firms liberally use cold offers so those rates might not be representative.

There are no V100s that "liberally use cold offers." Like why would they even do that? 100% offer rate isn't THAT important. I'm always shocked at the number of TLS people who seem to think that law firm partners are some especially devious, cold breed of human beings. Boring reality is that 90% of them are pretty standard people.

anyone got a link to firm offer rates for 2012?

AllTheLawz wrote:

Morgan12Oak wrote:Some firms liberally use cold offers so those rates might not be representative.

There are no V100s that "liberally use cold offers." Like why would they even do that? 100% offer rate isn't THAT important. I'm always shocked at the number of TLS people who seem to think that law firm partners are some especially devious, cold breed of human beings. Boring reality is that 90% of them are pretty standard people.

Cold offers are mutually beneficial compared to no offers. But there is no evidence that there are many firms that liberally use cold offers. There aren't even rumors about it.

AllTheLawz wrote: There are no V100s that "liberally use cold offers." Like why would they even do that? 100% offer rate isn't THAT important. I'm always shocked at the number of TLS people who seem to think that law firm partners are some especially devious, cold breed of human beings. Boring reality is that 90% of them are pretty standard people.

I personally know of several firms that give cold offers rather than no offers (as in, I know people who were on the receiving end of cold offers from these firms).

It is not uncommon for people to accept cold offers- some remain associates at the firm for a long time.

Anonymous User wrote:Also, offer rates vary by office. Some firms, in their prominent or flagship offices, give 100% offer rates, whereas other offices don't have the same offer rates. My firm, for example, only had about an 80% firmwide offer rate, but my office specifically mentioned that they took pride in making 100% offers year after year, even during the recession years.

I learned the hard way how true this is. The biglaw firm I summered for had a 100% offer rate for the several dozen summers in the main office, but had like an 80% offer rate in the satellite offices. Most of the offices had between 4-8 summers and most no offered at least 1 person.

Anonymous User wrote:anyone got a link to firm offer rates for 2012?

NALP has it for particular firms and offices. This article has a bunch of big firms listed; it's behind a paywall, but I think you should be able to get the article through Lexis, so current SA/rising 2Ls doing OCI should be able to see it.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Also, offer rates vary by office. Some firms, in their prominent or flagship offices, give 100% offer rates, whereas other offices don't have the same offer rates. My firm, for example, only had about an 80% firmwide offer rate, but my office specifically mentioned that they took pride in making 100% offers year after year, even during the recession years.

I learned the hard way how true this is. The biglaw firm I summered for had a 100% offer rate for the several dozen summers in the main office, but had like an 80% offer rate in the satellite offices. Most of the offices had between 4-8 summers and most no offered at least 1 person.

i get that... should one be weary of working for a satellite market paying V30 w/ a small summer class then? (if offer rate is > 90% firmwide)

Anonymous User wrote: V(low number) associate here: I don't know of any firms that liberally use cold offers. They're also explicitly prohibited by the NALP rules.

To the OP - an offer rate under 100% will be a cause for concern, because it will make the summer feel much more like a tryout. Why go to a firm where you might not get an offer if you have the choice of going somewhere that you aren't expected to prove yourself?

again, how do you choose an office, lets say, where:

Firm A) cool people, great vibe, topnotch XYZ practice group, non-100% offer -OR-
Firm B) people are meh, stuffy vibe, good practice but not as well-known as firm A's XYZ practice, 100% offer

if Firm A's offer rate is w/in 1-3 people of being 100% do you still choose that one, or does it have to be like 85% offer or lower to add this calculation into the mix; therefore, leading one to choose Firm B instead.

Anonymous User wrote: again, how do you choose an office, lets say, where:

Firm A) cool people, great vibe, topnotch XYZ practice group, non-100% offer -OR-
Firm B) people are meh, stuffy vibe, good practice but not as well-known as firm A's XYZ practice, 100% offer

if Firm A's offer rate is w/in 1-3 people of being 100% do you still choose that one, or does it have to be like 85% offer or lower to add this calculation into the mix; therefore, leading one to choose Firm B instead.

I chose Firm A because I knew that at my firm, you were getting an offer unless you were an idiot/slacker/drunkard. I knew I could work hard and be responsible, so there was (in my mind) a 100% offer rate for people that were serious about being a summer associate.

I think there's no meaningful distinction between a firm that gives 100% offers and one that no offers 1-2 people in a relatively large class. Either way, this basically means everyone who tries and isn't weird gets an offer. The discrepancy is either the fact that the first firm cold offers rather than no offers, or that they just happened to luck out and get a great summer class.

But trust me, from experience, in pretty much every summer class there are often 1-2 people who really deserve to get no-offers (serious lack of effort, inappropriate / immature, blowing deadlines and being habitually unresponsive). So those people actually getting no offers shouldn't concern you. I'd only be concerned if it's a non-trivial amount of no offers (let's say more than 5-10%).

Desert Fox wrote:Whether you want to risk firms that no offer is a personal question of risk. Though I'd say if you are reading TLS, you probably want to hedge against your rotten personality.

But when you are making that choice you gotta consider your data size. If offices you are are looking are small, you still don't have a ton of data. 10/10 may be 100% but it's not a REAL 100%. Because everyone that year might have been good enough for an offer. I'd say to look at historical data from 2010-2013, but that doesn't seem to exist. But plenty of firms ding aspies but only have an aspie every other year.

So I'd really only factor offer rate in for firms with low, below 85%, or constant 100%. Not a ton of V100's fall into either category.

TITCR. You always have to assume that in any group of people, 1 or 2 might prove to be lemons, but if a firm has a smaller summer class size that could end up being like a 20% (or greater) "no-offer rate." Since you don't know the stories behind the no-offerings, it's impossible to know if these are just oddballs who puked on a partner's shoes at the fourth of july bbq, or if the firm is actually shady.