Top Law Schools

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:25 am**

Thanks for the feedback.

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:31 am**

I have a slightly higher GPA than you at the same school, and I think your top 10 are way too aggressive. I think our GPAs are reliably above median, but still, having majority NYC V10s in your top 10 sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Is there a particularly reason why you want to work at those firms besides just prestige and selectivity? Unless you have a particularly good reason, I don't see why you should risk striking out just for some fleeting sense of exclusivity.

Try focusing more on the V15-V50 firms, just as a rough estimate. Don't get so caught up in the law school prestige rat race and just try to find a place that'll treat you well and where you won't hate working.

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:51 am**

Anonymous User wrote:I have a slightly higher GPA than you at the same school, and I think your top 10 are way too aggressive. I think our GPAs are reliably above median, but still, having majority NYC V10s in your top 10 sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Is there a particularly reason why you want to work at those firms besides just prestige and selectivity? Unless you have a particularly good reason, I don't see why you should risk striking out just for some fleeting sense of exclusivity.

Try focusing more on the V15-V50 firms, just as a rough estimate. Don't get so caught up in the law school prestige rat race and just try to find a place that'll treat you well and where you won't hate working.

Hi, OP here, thanks for the feedback. 4 out of my current top 10 are V10s though, so not exactly majority. My list isn't just a ranking of where I want to work most, as I said it is largely based on how hard it is to get them through lottery, with shifting for obvious reasons (e.g. hated how they sound, practice areas, way out of grade range). Skadden/Weil are up there since what I've heard is that they are least grade-conscious, Latham/Kirkland are up there because I have a positive impression of them or a certain practice area strength.

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:09 am**

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I have a slightly higher GPA than you at the same school, and I think your top 10 are way too aggressive. I think our GPAs are reliably above median, but still, having majority NYC V10s in your top 10 sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Is there a particularly reason why you want to work at those firms besides just prestige and selectivity? Unless you have a particularly good reason, I don't see why you should risk striking out just for some fleeting sense of exclusivity.

Try focusing more on the V15-V50 firms, just as a rough estimate. Don't get so caught up in the law school prestige rat race and just try to find a place that'll treat you well and where you won't hate working.
Hi, OP here, thanks for the feedback. 4 out of my current top 10 are V10s though, so not exactly majority. My list isn't just a ranking of where I want to work most, as I said it is largely based on how hard it is to get them through lottery, with shifting for obvious reasons (e.g. hated how they sound, practice areas, way out of grade range). Skadden/Weil are up there since what I've heard is that they are least grade-conscious, Latham/Kirkland are up there because I have a positive impression of them or a certain practice area strength.

First responder here.

Debevoise is an NYC V10, and for selectivity purposes, you should consider them a V10. I'm actually uncertain about how selective Gibson NY is and I am just assuming that their selectivity is at least somewhat similar to their DC and CA offices. If someone could clarify this, I think it would help us both out.

Everybody has different aims at OCI. Perhaps you really do want to work at a V10 and are willing to take that risk, which you are entitled to take. Personally, I am only going to put 1 V10, which is one firm that I'd really love to work for, in my top 10. Other than that, I'd rather focus on firms that I have a better chance of getting offers.

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:17 am**

Anonymous User wrote:First responder here.

Debevoise is an NYC V10, and for selectivity purposes, you should consider them a V10. I'm actually uncertain about how selective Gibson NY is and I am just assuming that their selectivity is at least somewhat similar to their DC and CA offices. If someone could clarify this, I think it would help us both out.

Everybody has different aims at OCI. Perhaps you really do want to work at a V10 and are willing to take that risk, which you are entitled to take. Personally, I am only going to put 1 V10, which is one firm that I'd really love to work for, in my top 10. Other than that, I'd rather focus on firms that I have a better chance of getting offers.

Well, ok, thanks again. I've heard mixed things about GD NY selectivity (won't say why I put them so high, but it's not a great reason) so I don't mind taking them down/off. Could also probably do something about Skadden/Latham, too, without shedding tears. If they're out or lower, I'm probably just going to shift my entire list up which brings Kasowitz, Cadwaladar, and Fitzpatrick onto the list of 30. Any opinion on how the rest of the list looks in that case?

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:46 am**

Hogan, Wilmer, and Jones Day DC is an interesting combo. Why only those firms for your DC selections?

EDIT: Removed quote.

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:03 pm**

Anonymous User wrote: Hogan, Wilmer, and Jones Day DC is an interesting combo. Why only those firms for your DC selections?

Well, that isn't to say more DC offices didn't interest me, but I know DC is super tough to get into so I only put DC on if there was a particular reason to pick it or to NOT pick the NY office.

I wrote down "rotation program + lifestyle" under Hogan, "strong practice area" for Wilmer, and didn't write anything for Jones Day so not sure why on JD atm.

ps if you wouldn't mind, could you unquote the list?

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:46 pm**

Just FYI, you're slightly above median. Median is like 3.28 (+/- 0.3 or so), though you're median for all practical purposes.

Anyway, I do agree that you're being too aggressive. This might be a good bidlist for someone with more like a 3.5, but not a 3.3. I have a GPA a bit lower than yours (a bit under 3.3), am also targeting NYC, and I think I only have 4 of your top 10 firms in my top 30. I really have no idea if your bidlist will actually get you a lot of interviews, but its definitely too aggressive (unless you're a great interviewer and have great WE).

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:31 pm**

Fellow rising 2L at Penn.

At median, I think maximizing interviews is a good strategy if you have something to offer other than grades that you think will be super attractive. If not, I think you should really focus on firms where you won't be facing an uphill battle because of grades. If there are selective firms you'd really like to interview with for a specific reason, there are other ways to get an interview than placing them high on your bidlist.

Just my two cents.

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:35 pm**

Two years ago Jones Day canceled people who bid them at two offices claiming they are 1 firm without multiple offices. So I wouldn't waste a bid on it twice.

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:03 pm**

Hey may be of limited help b/c I'm a rising 2L @ a diff MVPB but I would say judging from the information given to us from our career services re firm medians you are being too aggressive with competitive firms. Even assuming that the same firms reach lower for P.

I can say that my bid list looks nothing like this.

Selective firms are lower down on mine with less selective firms higher up because everyone at median wants an interview with them. It's no good if you get stuck holding interviews for a bunch of firms you're not competitive for. And, again, at least at my school, that often happens if you bid dreams or reach firms higher up and "safety" or less selective firms lower down.

It looks like there's a bit of that going on with your list.

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:15 pm**

If you're at P, you're not going to get any of those DC firms that low. You're also probably being too aggressive overall.

Posted: **Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:34 pm**

How many interviews do people typically get at Penn? One huge problem with your bidlist is that you put hard firms up top and easier ones at the bottom. If you end up getting like 17-18 choices, mostly in your top 20, you'll end with an interview schedule where you only have a decent shot at maybe 5 firms. Which means you fucked up.

I don't think your upperclass friend was doing you any favors when he made this list. You need to start from scratch.

You are median, you should be more afraid of striking out than picking which V10 you'll summer at.

Posted: **Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:04 pm**

Desert Fox wrote: I don't think your upperclass friend was doing you any favors when he made this list. You need to start from scratch.

You are median, you should be more afraid of striking out than picking which V10 you'll summer at.

Posted: **Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:24 pm**

Desert Fox wrote:How many interviews do people typically get at Penn? One huge problem with your bidlist is that you put hard firms up top and easier ones at the bottom. If you end up getting like 17-18 choices, mostly in your top 20, you'll end with an interview schedule where you only have a decent shot at maybe 5 firms. Which means you fucked up.

I don't think your upperclass friend was doing you any favors when he made this list. You need to start from scratch.

You are median, you should be more afraid of striking out than picking which V10 you'll summer at.

IIRC career services told me the average number of interviews is 12-15.

Posted: **Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:27 pm**

too aggressive -- the only difference between V10 and v10-50 for your short/med/long term career is that with the former you have a much higher shot at striking out. stop buying into the rankings hype.

Posted: **Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:28 pm**

I'm a graduate from this year's P class, and although I agree your list should be a little more conservative, I think some of the comments are too exaggerated. I don't think your grades are going to be an auto-ding at many, if any, of these firms. V10 is not a proxy for selectivity as I'm sure has been discussed ad nauseum. Obviously you left the correct grade-selective firms out whether they are in the V10 or not (W&C, Boies, Quinn, etc). By the same token, I have no reason to believe that the NY offices of Paul Weiss, Debevoise or GDC are any less selective than some of the firms within the V10.

In my class, there are plenty of people who were not on LR and didn't graduate with honors who are going to V10 and comparably selective firms. Of course that's not a perfect proxy for 1L grades, but it's probably close. I wouldn't start moving up the Fitzpatricks and Cadwaladers unless you have some reason you want to work there besides the hope that they will take you because they are less grade-selective. Those firms have summer classes of about 15 and 30, respectively. If your primary goal is to be sure to get at least one offer, as part of your strategy, I would make sure you get screeners at the big NY firms that have ~100 sized summer classes and often have 8-10 summers each from Penn, like Cleary, PW, DPW and others. If you want to move "less selective" firms up, do it at the expense of the DC firms or firms with smaller class sizes.

Posted: **Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:31 pm**

SportsFan wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:How many interviews do people typically get at Penn? One huge problem with your bidlist is that you put hard firms up top and easier ones at the bottom. If you end up getting like 17-18 choices, mostly in your top 20, you'll end with an interview schedule where you only have a decent shot at maybe 5 firms. Which means you fucked up.

I don't think your upperclass friend was doing you any favors when he made this list. You need to start from scratch.

You are median, you should be more afraid of striking out than picking which V10 you'll summer at.
IIRC career services told me the average number of interviews is 12-15.

If this is true, anything below spot ~9 is a maybe. Anything below 17-18 is basically something you'll only get if it's an unpopular bid option.

OP- Tell us what you want to do at a firm. Corp or lit? What types of corp/lit? What kind of work experience do you have?

Posted: **Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:33 pm**

Desert Fox wrote:
SportsFan wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:How many interviews do people typically get at Penn? One huge problem with your bidlist is that you put hard firms up top and easier ones at the bottom. If you end up getting like 17-18 choices, mostly in your top 20, you'll end with an interview schedule where you only have a decent shot at maybe 5 firms. Which means you fucked up.

I don't think your upperclass friend was doing you any favors when he made this list. You need to start from scratch.

You are median, you should be more afraid of striking out than picking which V10 you'll summer at.
IIRC career services told me the average number of interviews is 12-15.
If this is true, anything below spot ~9 is a maybe. Anything below 17-18 is basically something you'll only get if it's an unpopular bid option.

OP- Tell us what you want to do at a firm. Corp or lit? What types of corp/lit? What kind of work experience do you have?

Though I should add its definitely possible to get 20+ if you bid really, really well and have a bit of luck.

Posted: **Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:37 pm**

SportsFan wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
SportsFan wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:How many interviews do people typically get at Penn? One huge problem with your bidlist is that you put hard firms up top and easier ones at the bottom. If you end up getting like 17-18 choices, mostly in your top 20, you'll end with an interview schedule where you only have a decent shot at maybe 5 firms. Which means you fucked up.

I don't think your upperclass friend was doing you any favors when he made this list. You need to start from scratch.

You are median, you should be more afraid of striking out than picking which V10 you'll summer at.
IIRC career services told me the average number of interviews is 12-15.
If this is true, anything below spot ~9 is a maybe. Anything below 17-18 is basically something you'll only get if it's an unpopular bid option.

OP- Tell us what you want to do at a firm. Corp or lit? What types of corp/lit? What kind of work experience do you have?
Though I should add its definitely possible to get 20+ if you bid really, really well and have a bit of luck.

Yea that sounds like my school. Average is ~14 but you can get 20+ if you bid smart. But this ordering is not bidding smart. The less selective big firms go first because everyone in the class wants those interviews. If the average person is getting 12-15, no fucking way are you getting Milbank at 24.

You get to 20+ by putting less in demand bid options later in your list. But I have no clue which bid options are less in demand at Penn.

Posted: **Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:14 pm**

Hi all, OP here. Was away for the holidays but caught up now. Thank you for the feedback. I'll be doing a revamp of the list where I shift some of the reaches off/much lower but probably keep the general ranking of the other firms. Either way, I'll post it up when it's done and I hope some of you will stick around and take another look when it's up.

I'll address some of the posts.
- Career services gave me a higher number when I asked avg # of screeners from the lottery, specifically if the target was NY. I think she said 15-18. From talking with some upperclassmen, seems like you have a decent shot at 20 and above.
- My list is approx. arranged from most popular to least. I suspected it was too heavily-based on that, which is why I really wanted feedback on it. For example, Milbank had a 46% successful bid rate at least year's OCI. (or maybe it's the last 2 years). K&E is #1 on my list because I really like what I've researched and it had a 16% success rate.

Desert Fox wrote: OP- Tell us what you want to do at a firm. Corp or lit? What types of corp/lit? What kind of work experience do you have?

I'm in a bit of a uncommon situation (maybe, tbf I have no idea what other people here want to do) where I'm leaning corp unless there's a specific area of lit I can get into. I don't want to say exactly what publicly or my specific WE but if anyone would be willing to advise through PM, I would be happy to PM the details.

Nelson wrote:If you're at P, you're not going to get any of those DC firms that low. You're also probably being too aggressive overall.

Sorry, by "that low," did you mean my low GPA or the low bid rank (or both

). Either way, I've taken JD off, shifted Hogan up, WH might just be a lost cause, and I realized I meant to label Cleary as the DC office also.

Posted: **Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:29 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:Hi all, OP here. Was away for the holidays but caught up now. Thank you for the feedback. I'll be doing a revamp of the list where I shift some of the reaches off/much lower but probably keep the general ranking of the other firms. Either way, I'll post it up when it's done and I hope some of you will stick around and take another look when it's up.

I'll address some of the posts.
- Career services gave me a higher number when I asked avg # of screeners from the lottery, specifically if the target was NY. I think she said 15-18. From talking with some upperclassmen, seems like you have a decent shot at 20 and above.
- My list is approx. arranged from most popular to least. I suspected it was too heavily-based on that, which is why I really wanted feedback on it. For example, Milbank had a 46% successful bid rate at least year's OCI. (or maybe it's the last 2 years). K&E is #1 on my list because I really like what I've researched and it had a 16% success rate.

Desert Fox wrote: OP- Tell us what you want to do at a firm. Corp or lit? What types of corp/lit? What kind of work experience do you have?
I'm in a bit of a uncommon situation (maybe, tbf I have no idea what other people here want to do) where I'm leaning corp unless there's a specific area of lit I can get into. I don't want to say exactly what publicly or my specific WE but if anyone would be willing to advise through PM, I would be happy to PM the details.

Nelson wrote:If you're at P, you're not going to get any of those DC firms that low. You're also probably being too aggressive overall.
Sorry, by "that low," did you mean my low GPA or the low bid rank (or both ). Either way, I've taken JD off, shifted Hogan up, WH might just be a lost cause, and I realized I meant to label Cleary as the DC office also.

Cleary DC is gonna be a hard sell from slightly above median

Posted: **Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:40 pm**

Hi all,
I updated the OP and rearranged. Any last minute feedback would be great as our bids will be entered on Tuesday. Again, all offices are NY unless indicated.

--

Posted: **Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:55 pm**

I'm also around median at P, and this looks very similar to my list, FWIW. Good luck!

Posted: **Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:23 pm**

Anonymous User wrote:
Nelson wrote:If you're at P, you're not going to get any of those DC firms that low. You're also probably being too aggressive overall.
Sorry, by "that low," did you mean my low GPA or the low bid rank (or both ). Either way, I've taken JD off, shifted Hogan up, WH might just be a lost cause, and I realized I meant to label Cleary as the DC office also.

I meant bidding it that low.

Put Debevoise at 5 over Ropes. Not sure why you have DLA Piper on there that high, isn't their NYC summer class pretty small? Where's Schulte? I would move up Fried Frank/Cadwalader.

PM me if you want OP.

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