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According to many of the schools I checked, the stats indicate that employment is better for the graduates of 2012. Am I missing something or not enough stats out yet?

resilience99 wrote:According to many of the schools I checked, the stats indicate that employment is better for the graduates of 2012. Am I missing something or not enough stats out yet?

It's not. Check out the law school transparency stats.

resilience99 wrote:According to many of the schools I checked, the stats indicate that employment is better for the graduates of 2012. Am I missing something or not enough stats out yet?

Talking about big firms 2012 was a bit better than 2011, and 2013 is supposed to be a bit better than 2012. But 2014 is supposed to be a bit worse than 2013.

Latham is laying off staff (not lawyers).Firms are defrocking partners. This is the new normal.

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Desert Fox wrote:

resilience99 wrote:According to many of the schools I checked, the stats indicate that employment is better for the graduates of 2012. Am I missing something or not enough stats out yet?

Talking about big firms 2012 was a bit better than 2011, and 2013 is supposed to be a bit better than 2012. But 2014 is supposed to be a bit worse than 2013.

Latham is laying off staff (not lawyers).Firms are defrocking partners. This is the new normal.

Most of the T14 employment numbers that have been released were all up. How do you know 2013 will be better, but 2014 will be worse? Industry projections?

colonelnerd wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

resilience99 wrote:According to many of the schools I checked, the stats indicate that employment is better for the graduates of 2012. Am I missing something or not enough stats out yet?

Talking about big firms 2012 was a bit better than 2011, and 2013 is supposed to be a bit better than 2012. But 2014 is supposed to be a bit worse than 2013.

Latham is laying off staff (not lawyers).Firms are defrocking partners. This is the new normal.

Most of the T14 employment numbers that have been released were all up. How do you know 2013 will be better, but 2014 will be worse? Industry projections?

Word of mouth, school data that was leaked, shit like that. It's pretty conventional wisdom on campuses. But it's really only for big law. No clue how shitlaw hiring is doing.

I think it's important to be prudent about law school employment numbers, so don't take this for more than what it is.

BUT at my t14 (MVPB), big firm hiring has unquestionably gotten better for Class of 2013 and 2014. (I know it's hard to prove this, but I'm basing this on OCI stats we were given for bidding - callback/offer ratios are up, number of offers are up markedly, sizes of summer classes are up, etc). The Class of 2014 did better than Class of 2013. However, is this back to pre-recession levels? No.

TLS gloom is important, but I'd be surprised if 2/3 of my class did not get very desirable outcomes. (Not to discout the 1/3 that is struggling, which is a serious issue).

Anonymous User wrote:I think it's important to be prudent about law school employment numbers, so don't take this for more than what it is.

BUT at my t14 (MVPB), big firm hiring has unquestionably gotten better for Class of 2013 and 2014. (I know it's hard to prove this, but I'm basing this on OCI stats we were given for bidding - callback/offer ratios are up, number of offers are up markedly, sizes of summer classes are up, etc). The Class of 2014 did better than Class of 2013. However, is this back to pre-recession levels? No.

TLS gloom is important, but I'd be surprised if 2/3 of my class did not get very desirable outcomes. (Not to discout the 1/3 that is struggling, which is a serious issue).

I think the 2/3 number is a pretty good guess.

so is it safe to assume the trend will continue for the class of 2016?

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2013 might turn out great. Strange as it seems, I have two friends that (last week) received callbacks from major firms they emailed months ago. Because they had already committed to a SA position they had to decline, nevertheless, looks like things could be very active this year, especially white collar litigation.

As a BTW: Timing can be such a bitch. A bigger firm with more money turns up at your doorstep after you commit to a less desirable firm. I guess the Gods love having their fun.

FWIW, I think it's hard to explain what it's like to go through OCI at a t-14 when at least 1/3 of the class isn't going to get what they wanted. You get into a top school and it feels like a solid achievement, full of potential. You do well and get yourself above median and you think getting a job should be relatively easy. Then you go through OCI and while maybe a quarter of the class sails through (multiple CBs and offers, etc) most don't and have to grind it out, mass mail, hustle and even after that, many strike out. It's fairly gut-wrenching and nerve wracking, especially knowing almost all of us are staring down the barrel of $200k plus in debt. I know before law school, I spent a lot of time focusing on the improving prospects of biglaw hiring and used that info to reassure myself. I didn't strike out, but it was by far much more stressful and scary than I expected it to be. I'm not saying that's a reason not to go, but something to think about as you look at employment numbers.

It is definitely not for the squeamish. Grades, curve, daily pile of rejection mail, too many OCI interviews, finally SA, then stress over being offered, followed by the bar… it can all be yours for just $200K.

It makes the Michael Douglas movie The Game look like a walk in the park!

Yeah, it looks to me that 2014 is worse than 2013. On the other hand, I know a lot of 3L's who got positions (relatively), so it might just be that firms are unwilling to project growth into the future and instead just pick more people up as graduates if it turns out they need them.

I also know a few 3Ls at my schools who recently got an offer. May this be the future hiring pattern?

Class of '12 was slightly better, but that's not saying much considering Class of '11 was an absolute, unmitigated disaster.

resilience99 wrote:so is it safe to assume the trend will continue for the class of 2016?

No. No one can predict this. Also, GTFO of this forum, 0L.

OP is considering schools like SUNY Buffalo. Hiring is not much better at these schools. Big firm hiring has improved somewhat at top schools so top school employment rates have improved, but big firm hiring has not improved for non-top schools. My impression is that big firms will never hire from non-top schools they way that they used to, which was not all that much anyway.

"There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics" - Mark Twain

are the aba employment stats at the time of graduation or 9 months after grad?

For biglaw hiring from top schools, yes, it is. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

ajax adonis wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I think it's important to be prudent about law school employment numbers, so don't take this for more than what it is.

BUT at my t14 (MVPB), big firm hiring has unquestionably gotten better for Class of 2013 and 2014. (I know it's hard to prove this, but I'm basing this on OCI stats we were given for bidding - callback/offer ratios are up, number of offers are up markedly, sizes of summer classes are up, etc). The Class of 2014 did better than Class of 2013. However, is this back to pre-recession levels? No.

TLS gloom is important, but I'd be surprised if 2/3 of my class did not get very desirable outcomes. (Not to discout the 1/3 that is struggling, which is a serious issue).

1/3 of people being unemployed at MVPB is not good news, just saying.

All anecdotal/limited sample size so rely on real empirical data in whatever form it is released rather than listening to me/other TLSers, but I definitely know people that were well above median at my MVPB (even personable and with ties to relevant markets) that struck out.

Anecdotal understandings are what you'd expect: people with jobs who have a lot of friends with jobs think things are up, and people without jobs who have a lot of friends without jobs think things are down. Difficult to tell at this point.

Anonymous User wrote:

ajax adonis wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I think it's important to be prudent about law school employment numbers, so don't take this for more than what it is.

BUT at my t14 (MVPB), big firm hiring has unquestionably gotten better for Class of 2013 and 2014. (I know it's hard to prove this, but I'm basing this on OCI stats we were given for bidding - callback/offer ratios are up, number of offers are up markedly, sizes of summer classes are up, etc). The Class of 2014 did better than Class of 2013. However, is this back to pre-recession levels? No.

TLS gloom is important, but I'd be surprised if 2/3 of my class did not get very desirable outcomes. (Not to discout the 1/3 that is struggling, which is a serious issue).

1/3 of people being unemployed at MVPB is not good news, just saying.

All anecdotal/limited sample size so rely on real empirical data in whatever form it is released rather than listening to me/other TLSers, but I definitely know people that were well above median at my MVPB (even personable and with ties to relevant markets) that struck out.

Anecdotal understandings are what you'd expect: people with jobs who have a lot of friends with jobs think things are up, and people without jobs who have a lot of friends without jobs think things are down. Difficult to tell at this point.

people need to stop this MVPB nonsense. you're already anonymous, so how giving useful information? MVPB are not created equal

edit accidental anon sorry

V20 associate here.

I can confirm that my office (a small office in the bay area) doesn't even interview at MVP anymore whereas we did just 3 years ago.

Anonymous User wrote:V20 associate here.

I can confirm that my office (a small office in the bay area) doesn't even interview at MVP anymore whereas we did just 3 years ago.

BU 2013 seems to be doing better than the 18% big law that 2011 had & 2014 seems to be doing really well (maybe since they have 30-40 less students).