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Somewhat of a splitter as well. Applied for judicial internships without including any undergrad GPA information and landed one of the more sought after positions available. I did have a law professor put in the good word as well, FWIW.

stillwater wrote:Ma People-

Quick question for those of you who have done/applied for 1L judicial internships in the past. My career services offices keeps trumpeting the full quartet of documents to be sent out in the initial mailing: cover letter, resume, writing sample, and undergrad transcript. I am good with the first two, could theoretically do the third, but am adamantly opposed to doing the 4th. I was a pretty big splitter and don't want to air out my years old, uncomely undergrad GPA. I know TLS wisdom says cover letter and resume, so is this how I should proceed? Anyone have cautionary tales otherwise?

I'm quite sure I never sent my undergrad transcript for a judicial internship (the only judge I ever saw specifically require it was a very very fancy feeder-type). However, where I went to school, you could wait to send out applications until after your first semester grades came out and still be sure of getting something (which is what I did). So if you're in a market where all the good judges get deluged with applications on Dec. 1 precisely and the openings get filled really quickly, I can understand why the CSO suggests submitting something that shows grades of some kind. However, unless there is an actual ad posted for the internship which says specifically to include an undergrad transcript, I think not sending one makes sense.

The biggest issue I can think of is if everyone else in your market (not just your school) is sending UG transcripts, and you don't, it may look fishy. But if your other materials are good (and presumably if your undergrad GPA is old you have other interesting things to offer), you're probably okay, especially if you can come up with a good writing sample.

i would DEFINITELY send in a writing sample, such as an office memo or a motion & memo! I actually had two of my interviewers (clerks) pull it out and go through it with me. They are very interested in good writing! I also put in my undergrad transcript.

You are talking about your summer, right? In my application I sent: cover letter, resume, unofficial transcript, references, writing sample. That's what the career office told me to do, so I did it. I only had a 3.3 in UG, so it isn't on my resume, and at no point did anyone ask me about my UG GPA. So don't worry about that.

Are you sure they didn't mean law school transcripts (once you get your grades back)?

I only sent cover letters and resumes. One judge requested a writing sample, so I sent it then. It may not be a horrible idea to send your writing sample in your initial mailing, but if your undergrad transcript is poor, it will only hurt you to send it.

I loved working for a federal judge 1L summer. While it sucks to be super poor now, I feel it was worth it. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

I doubt many, if any, 1L fed judicial externs have gotten hired without a writing sample; it's pretty much all the chambers has to go on re: your legal ability. I wouldn't send in UG transcript unless they request it.

zomginternets wrote:I doubt many, if any, 1L fed judicial externs have gotten hired without a writing sample; it's pretty much all the chambers has to go on re: your legal ability. I wouldn't send in UG transcript unless they request it.

At the risk of being obnoxious, this wasn't my experience.
May vary by location. Talk to current 2Ls who externed in your city about their experience.

For my 1L fed district ct externship undergrad GPA was not brought up. Sixth Circuit internship fall of 2L, same thing, no one asked. Don't produce it unless the court asks.

I agree that I wouldn't include it unless asked. Having been told that for my 1L summer people might care about my UG transcript, and later that for 2L OCI it might be requested, I ordered 10 official transcripts and made 10 copies. After having interviewed for 1L Judicial externships and with a bunch of OCI firms, I still have 10 official transcripts and 10 copies. It's possible that someone might care, but I certainly wouldn't assume that they do if you're a splitter (I was a mega splitter myself).

In case you're feeling any stress about the 1L summer hunt, I figured I'd just give my .02 and say that I strongly doubt it matters almost at all what you do for 1L so long as it's legal. I think that showing the initiative to secure something like a CoA/District Court internship is a small plus and indicates that you're a relatively organized and with-it person, but I would be really skeptical that it's a plus that would be equivalent to even a .03 increase in your GPA. Considering that stressing out too much over your 1L job search and sacrificing studying time to get a bunch of apps done could easily hurt your GPA that much, I would be hesitant to tell someone to even bother going through the externship hustle unless they were dedicated and knew that time spent on the apps wouldn't affect their time studying. I think most employers accept that many people use it as an opportunity for exposure, and not necessarily a chance to develop skills. So long as you can spin some story (e.g., one of my jobs was a trial court externship and if asked I talked about how I wanted to get exposure to a very broad range of legal subject matter, see what a courthouse was actually like, etc.) as to why you did it that doesn't just sound like you were lazy and it was the first thing you could get, you should be fine. Also, something I didn't do but I regret, your main goal for your summer employment besides making your employer like you is getting a solid writing sample out of it.

I personally tried to impress employers by working two unpaid summer jobs for a total of ~65 hours a week (demonstrating, I hoped, an enthusiasm for the law and a willingness to work hard). Not only did most not notice, but even when they did they obviously didn't care. I was asked about my summer positions at most interviews, but it was obviously just to get me talking so they could see what I was like, not because they wanted to know what skills I developed. There are exceptions to this rule, but in my opinion they're anomalistic enough that you shouldn't think to rely on them: what results you get in your 2L job search will have a disturbingly strong correlation with your school, your grades, and whether you seem to be a tolerable person to hang around.

Anyway, sorry for the long speech. Good luck!

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Your writing sample needs to be legal, so unless you have another legal writing sample up your sleeve, you should send the memo. 1L applicants aren't going to have anything legal besides their legal writing memos, so no one's going to be expecting interesting or creative topics (you don't get to pick them). It's just what you can do with the topic. Is there another memo coming due soon that you like the topic of better and do you think it's worth waiting till you have that one done to submit apps? Otherwise, I don't know that you have any other options.

(I used my first semester memo as a writing sample for 1L internships because it was all I had; I think I used my second semester brief as a writing sample for a 2L fall internship; I used a [real] brief from my 2L fall internship after that. Couldn't use the materials I produced during my 1L summer because the judge wanted everything to stay confidential.)

You're pretty much stuck with your first semester memo (or memos, depending on how your class is structured). But don't fret. Judges aren't reading it because it is interesting or thoughtful. They just want to see that you can produce a well-written legal document.

Per the original topic, I secured a 1L judicial internship (state trial court) without a writing sample or grades. I mass mailed judges on Dec 1 with a resume and a cover letter. The vast majority of them never responded. Most of the ones that did respond asked for grades and/or writing sample. A few were willing to interview me without either. I interviewed with one judge just after finals and I was offered the internship on the spot (weeks before I got my first semester grades).

I think this a decent strategy if you can put everything together quickly.

Does anyone have an opinion/recommendations on what is better post 1L- a state court of appeals internship or a district court judge? I had a state judge offer me an internship just based on resume and cover letter, but I have to respond to him before I have an interview lined up with a district court judge. Any thoughts?

yasafener1907 wrote:Does anyone have an opinion/recommendations on what is better post 1L- a state court of appeals internship or a district court judge? I had a state judge offer me an internship just based on resume and cover letter, but I have to respond to him before I have an interview lined up with a district court judge. Any thoughts?

Close call. In federal court you'll generally be exposed to better advocacy. But in the state appellate court you might be able to do more substantive work, as state courts are generally busier than federal courts. The deciding factor for me would be where are you going to learn the most? Trial court. It all starts in the trial court.

zomginternets wrote:I doubt many, if any, 1L fed judicial externs have gotten hired without a writing sample; it's pretty much all the chambers has to go on re: your legal ability. I wouldn't send in UG transcript unless they request it.

1L fed judicial extern hired without a writing sample, checking in.

NotMyRealName09 wrote:

yasafener1907 wrote:Does anyone have an opinion/recommendations on what is better post 1L- a state court of appeals internship or a district court judge? I had a state judge offer me an internship just based on resume and cover letter, but I have to respond to him before I have an interview lined up with a district court judge. Any thoughts?

Close call. In federal court you'll generally be exposed to better advocacy. But in the state appellate court you might be able to do more substantive work, as state courts are generally busier than federal courts. The deciding factor for me would be where are you going to learn the most? Trial court. It all starts in the trial court.

The district court externship would be the better option, by far

Bumi wrote:

zomginternets wrote:I doubt many, if any, 1L fed judicial externs have gotten hired without a writing sample; it's pretty much all the chambers has to go on re: your legal ability. I wouldn't send in UG transcript unless they request it.

1L fed judicial extern hired without a writing sample, checking in.

I'm surprised. School rank?

I am a current clerk for a federal district court judge, and we (me and my co-clerk) have sole responsibility for hiring externs. In our chambers, at least, a writing sample is absolutely required, especially for 1L applicants. As others have said, we otherwise have nothing to go on in terms of an applicant's analytic and writing ability. And because our externs spend the vast majority of their time writing, it's important to us that we don't hire someone whose work we are essentially going to have to rewrite to make it acceptable.

Some applicants send along their undergrad transcripts. These are not required or particularly helpful. That being said, because 1Ls are applying without any law school grades, I would suggest listing your undergrad GPA on your resume assuming it is not poor. If it is poor, leave it off and hope your writing sample blows them away.

Chambers that hire externs without writing samples or any grades or GPA at all don't make sense to me, as I have no idea how they are evaluating applicants, unless they are doing so based on connections.

zomginternets wrote:

Bumi wrote:

zomginternets wrote:I doubt many, if any, 1L fed judicial externs have gotten hired without a writing sample; it's pretty much all the chambers has to go on re: your legal ability. I wouldn't send in UG transcript unless they request it.

1L fed judicial extern hired without a writing sample, checking in.

I'm surprised. School rank?

I received 2 offers without a writing sample or 1L grades (having applied to 4 district court judges), one of those without a real interview (just a 5 minute phone conversation).

I didn't send my undergrad transcript, but my resume has my Latin honors from undergrad. I also have good work experience between undergrad and law school.

I go to a regular T1 (non-T14) but applied to the local judges.

For the one I accepted, I received the interview based on my resume, and I received the offer about 15 minutes into the interview.

I also applied to a few bankruptcy judges. One asked for a writing sample and gave an offer off that (and no 1L grades).

Again, I'd recommend talking to current 2Ls at your school about the local [federal district court and CoA] judges and what they're looking for.

Also, I'm happy to answer any questions you guys might have about the experience.

Good luck!

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No prep necessary. Be yourself.