Here it is. T6, struck out, dropout thread Forum

[Anonymous User]

Here it is.

edit: erased some more personal info

Give it to me straight: what the fck is going to happen to me if i stay in law?

Some things about me: I actually do like the law and I don't particularly care about being rich. But I actually do hope to get married one day and having some kids and maybe if i'm lucky, a toyota camry/civic. All the doom and gloom of these threads (specifically http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=192753) make me feel like I'm going to be destitute. DESTITUTE.

So what do?

[Borg]

I assume you can't get your money back for the semester as it is probably too late. If I were you I would start trying super hard to recruit into a different industry for the rest of the semester. Maybe something science heavy.

I know that Siemens, for example, has a leadership development program that trains grad students to become execs: http://www.Siemens.com/jobs/en/graduates/sgp.php?start=1. I would recommend looking around for things like this. Maybe some pharma companies have them too? With a pre-med background and a top law degree, you could probably pull that off. You should also recruit super hard for consulting firms. Get in touch with their recruiters and see if you can get an interview.

[sky7]

Pass the patent bar. Mass mail again to patent firms and boutiques. Profit.

(While life sciences tend to be populated by PhDs, it is t required, and your T6 will help you get in the door.)

[sparty99]

Don't drop out. You go to a T6 and are young. Try 3L OCI and there are non-Associate jobs. In-house, blah, blah, blah. Worst come to worst, you would probably be coveted at consulting firms, especially if you have a high undergrad gpa.

Stick it out, but keep your options open to other careers, especially with ur science background.

[Anonymous User]

Here it is.

T6, below median grades, struck out of OCI, just started mass mailing (tell me about it), 100k in debt, very competitive science gpa (considering med school with cell bio degree), 24 years old.

Give it to me straight: what the fck is going to happen to me if i stay in law?

Some things about me: I actually do like the law and I don't particularly care about being rich. But I actually do hope to get married one day and having some kids and maybe if i'm lucky, a toyota camry/civic. All the doom and gloom of these threads (specifically http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=192753) make me feel like I'm going to be destitute. DESTITUTE.

So what do?

I'd stay stick around and finish up unless you have a concrete backup plan. You're invested already and in the long run you can make a T6 JD pay off if you are persistent.

[aca0260]

The above poster is correct about going down the IP road. Talk to your CSO if you haven't already. Keep mailing places - particularly places with strong IP practices. I go to a T14 and I've seen that big firms are still listing IP SA's as recently as this week. I know it sounds crazy but it's not too late. Many firms didn't predict their yields adequately.

[r6_philly]

OP, how did you go through OCI with your good science GPA and had no firm trying to put you in the IP group?

[Anonymous User]

OP, how did you go through OCI with your good science GPA and had no firm trying to put you in the IP group?

iono man. i didn't sell it? who knows. no one is looking for non-phd cell bio in their IP group right now?

[Anonymous User]

OP, how did you go through OCI with your good science GPA and had no firm trying to put you in the IP group?

iono man. i didn't sell it? who knows. no one is looking for non-phd cell bio in their IP group right now?

I think that probably has something to do with OP having only a B.S. A Ph. D. is almost a must for life sciences IP.

[LeBronBBall]

Don't drop out. You go to a T6 and are young. Try 3L OCI and there are non-Associate jobs. In-house, blah, blah, blah. Worst come to worst, you would probably be coveted at consulting firms, especially if you have a high undergrad gpa.

Stick it out, but keep your options open to other careers, especially with ur science background.

This is a very dangerous advice.

If you go to a top law school and have top credentials (good UG GPA, top LSAT scores, etc), you might be lucky to land an interview at a high-end strategy consulting firm. (MBB, Booz, OW, or the like) It depends if these consulting firms recruit at your law school or not.

However, interviews at high-end management consulting firms are incredibly rigorous. Have you done any case interviews so far? Not only are the questions asked during consulting interviews much harder than law firm interviews, but also the interview process is ridiculously competitive. If you struck out with law firm interviews (which are mostly basic behavioral and 'fit' questions), it is not a promising sign that you will have more luck with consulting firms.

For example, I know for a fact that McKinsey gives only one offer out of every 100 people they interview at first round. And, many people who applied for a job at McKinsey don't even make it to the first round. I know this since several people I know from my college work at Mckinsey, and they are involved with recruiting process. (they help weed out resumes from students at Ivies and help managers decide who to interview)

I currently work at a consulting firm that's not MBB-level. And, I can say for sure that lower-tier consulting firms (non-MBB level) don't typically recruit out of law school, nor do they hire law students much. These consulting firms (Deloitte, Accenture, PWC, IBM, etc) aren't always concerned about the prestige of your degree; but they care more about your skill set and experience. Hence, it is very difficult for a JD without solid, relevant work experience to land an offer at these firms, also.

To OP: I am not a law student so take my advice with a grain of salt. Since you were basically a pre-med student at UG with top notch GPA, and since you struck out at OCI, I would advise that you drop out of law school and apply for medical school. Cut your losses and move on. If you somehow don't end up getting into a medical school (which I doubt, given your credentials) then you could go for dental school, also. (dental schools are noticeably easier to get into than medical schools, and dentists still make very good living. Not to mention, you are basically guaranteed a job after graduation) From my understanding of how law firm recruiting works, you will not have much of a shot at a big firm job if you struck out as 2L. I hope you make a wise decision for yourself. Think about your time and money as invaluable resources, and don't waste them. I wish you best of luck.

[Anonymous User]

OP, how did you go through OCI with your good science GPA and had no firm trying to put you in the IP group?

iono man. i didn't sell it? who knows. no one is looking for non-phd cell bio in their IP group right now?

I think that probably has something to do with OP having only a B.S. A Ph. D. is almost a must for life sciences IP.

The conventional wisdom on here about needing a doctorate for life science is a bunch of bollocks.
I was heavily recruited for IP groups with a BS in neuroscience. I put "Eligible to sit for the Patent Bar Exam" on my resume and got tons of interest. Out of all of the screeners / callbacks I did, I met exactly one attorney with a PhD and it was in botany for fuck's sake.
Saying a PhD is required to break into life sciences IP is about as true as saying an CoA clerkship is necessary to do general litigation. It undoubtedly helps, but it is far from a requirement.

[Anonymous User]

Can you get into a joint degree (i.e., M.S. or Ph.D. in bio) while you are still in school? Patent attorneys said my M.S. in Chemistry was sufficient but a Ph.D. was required for bio and they don't even look at students with B.S. bio degrees.

I ended up with 8 CBs as a 3L through OCI/Loyola Patent Fair/Mass Mailing and two offers before I withdrew from the rest. I do not go to a T14 and I had bottom of the barrel grades. I did have an awesome undergrad GPA, so I worked with I had.

Did you go to the loyola patent interview program? If you stick it out, definitely go next summer. I ended up with 7 preselects, 4 of them turning to CBs, and one of them turning to a offer that I accepted.

Passing the patent bar is also great advice. Regardless of whether you find a gig or not, definitely study for and take the patent bar this summer. At this point, I would not worry about it and focus your energy on massmails/networking. Don't spend any time studying the patent bar now.

I say stick it out. See if you can get the joint degree. If you can't/opposed to the advanced degree, just really focus on bringing up those grades a little and try getting something published. Also network your butt off.

With a T6 law school and stellar undergrad GPA, I really think you can do this. IP secure is legit. You just have to do a little extra work in this economy.

[Anonymous User]

Can you get into a joint degree (i.e., M.S. or Ph.D. in bio) while you are still in school? Patent attorneys said my M.S. in Chemistry was sufficient but a Ph.D. was required for bio and they don't even look at students with B.S. bio degrees..

This is just so wrong. Where are you getting this from?

Fish, I think we can all agree, is one of the biggest names in IP law. Just look at the associate profiles I pulled in 5 minutes of looking:

http://www.fr.com/geoffrey-d-biegler/
BS in Biology

http://www.fr.com/susan-m-coletti/
BS in Cell Bio

--LinkRemoved--
BS in Bio

http://www.fr.com/craig-countryman/
BS in Chemistry

http://www.fr.com/elizabeth-m-flanagan/
BS in Chemistry

OP, you do not need to go back to school or add more debt to your load. A BS is sufficient to get you into IP practices.

[bk1]

Fish, I think we can all agree, is one of the biggest names in IP law. Just look at the associate profiles I pulled in 5 minutes of looking:

OP, you do not need to go back to school or add more debt to your load. A BS is sufficient to get you into IP practices.

I'm not going to agree or disagree with your conclusion, but I will point out that all the associates you pulled were hired during the boom. Things may have changed such that spots are more competitive these days and PhD might be more of a requirement now than it was then. This isn't to say that's the case because I genuinely don't know, but the fact that you pulled these associate bios doesn't necessarily support your point.

[3ThrowAway99]

OP, you do not need to go back to school or add more debt to your load. A BS is sufficient to get you into IP practices.

I am going to disagree with you. I have firsthand knowledge that life sciences background is not necessarily a significant IP boost. I would think a PhD in life sciences would make it a significant boost, but I really don't have any knowledge of that. Sorry to burst your bubble if you were somehow banking on an undergrad degree in life sciences. OTOH, I have also heard that simply being "patent bar eligible" is what firms look for; this would tend to cut against the fact that I have talked with someone--at a T20 law school with a masters in life sciences (recently graduated)--who found out the hard way that the life sciences background did nothing to land IP. This is also what I have heard from at least one other friend who is familiar with the patent scene.

[KidStuddi]

To OP: I am not a law student so take my advice with a grain of salt. Since you were basically a pre-med student at UG with top notch GPA, and since you struck out at OCI, I would advise that you drop out of law school and apply for medical school. Cut your losses and move on. If you somehow don't end up getting into a medical school (which I doubt, given your credentials) then you could go for dental school, also. (dental schools are noticeably easier to get into than medical schools, and dentists still make very good living. Not to mention, you are basically guaranteed a job after graduation) From my understanding of how law firm recruiting works, you will not have much of a shot at a big firm job if you struck out as 2L. I hope you make a wise decision for yourself. Think about your time and money as invaluable resources, and don't waste them. I wish you best of luck.

Terrible advice. Pushing OP to drop out of a excellent law school to pursue these dodgy plans is insane.

First of all, "given the OP's credentials"? What credentials? He said he has a "very competitive" undergraduate GPA and he hasn't even taken the MCAT yet. That's enough to make you think he's a lock for medical school? You think all of the people with 3.8 biology GPAs in law schools just decided they didn't want to be doctors? It's far harder than you seem to appreciate to get into medical school; even the shitty ones (there aren't many).

Second, dental school is definitely not the homerun investment you make it out to be. It's essentially 5 years of school now (4 years + a year of residency is the norm, and unlike medical school residencies, dental student pays to be there), more if you want to do endo or ortho. And it's every bit as expensive as law school is per year. Even still, there are a lot of underemployed dentists out there. It's not as if you're just get funneled into BigDental and you're set. There's a fair amount of hustling involved finding the premium jobs even if you have top-notch credentials.

OP has given no indication that he's taken either the MCAT or the DAT, or that he could be prepared to do so in the next month or so. That means this cycle is lost. The earliest he'd be able to start school again is fall of 14.

OP: You already have a 100k in debt and you're considering taking a two-year break and going back to add another quarter of a million dollars (at least) later on? Even if you do get into medical school, you wouldn't get started with your career until your mid-thirties (start at 26, graduate at 30, done with residency by 33-36 depending on speciality) and you'd be saddled with an astronomical amount of debt when you did. This is not cutting your losses; it's amplifying them.

If this is about being out of debt in a reasonable timeframe (and your fears of being DESTITUTE certainly seem to imply it is), attempting to go to medical school at this point in your life will not advance that goal.

Suck it up and keep hustling for a legal job.

[KidStuddi]

OP, you do not need to go back to school or add more debt to your load. A BS is sufficient to get you into IP practices.

I am going to disagree with you. I have firsthand knowledge that life sciences background is not necessarily a significant IP boost. I would think a PhD in life sciences would make it a significant boost, but I really don't have any knowledge of that. Sorry to burst your bubble if you were somehow banking on an undergrad degree in life sciences. OTOH, I have also heard that simply being "patent bar eligible" is what firms look for; this would tend to cut against the fact that I have talked with someone--at a T20 law school with a masters in life sciences (recently graduated)--who found out the hard way that the life sciences background did nothing to land IP. This is also what I have heard from at least one other friend who is familiar with the patent scene.

I don't think anyone is arguing that a PhD doesn't provide a bigger boost than a BS. But being more helpful does not make it a requirement to get into life science IP practices.

[LeBronBBall]

To OP: I am not a law student so take my advice with a grain of salt. Since you were basically a pre-med student at UG with top notch GPA, and since you struck out at OCI, I would advise that you drop out of law school and apply for medical school. Cut your losses and move on. If you somehow don't end up getting into a medical school (which I doubt, given your credentials) then you could go for dental school, also. (dental schools are noticeably easier to get into than medical schools, and dentists still make very good living. Not to mention, you are basically guaranteed a job after graduation) From my understanding of how law firm recruiting works, you will not have much of a shot at a big firm job if you struck out as 2L. I hope you make a wise decision for yourself. Think about your time and money as invaluable resources, and don't waste them. I wish you best of luck.

Terrible advice. Pushing OP to drop out of a excellent law school to pursue these dodgy plans is insane.

First of all, "given the OP's credentials"? What credentials? He said he has a "very competitive" undergraduate GPA and he hasn't even taken the MCAT yet. That's enough to make you think he's a lock for medical school? You think all of the people with 3.8 biology GPAs in law schools just decided they didn't want to be doctors? It's far harder than you seem to appreciate to get into medical school; even the shitty ones (there aren't many).

Second, dental school is definitely not the homerun investment you make it out to be. It's essentially 5 years of school now (4 years + a year of residency is the norm, and unlike medical school residencies, dental student pays to be there), more if you want to do endo or ortho. And it's every bit as expensive as law school is per year. Even still, there are a lot of underemployed dentists out there. It's not as if you're just get funneled into BigDental and you're set. There's a fair amount of hustling involved finding the premium jobs even if you have top-notch credentials.

OP has given no indication that he's taken either the MCAT or the DAT, or that he could be prepared to do so in the next month or so. That means this cycle is lost. The earliest he'd be able to start school again is fall of 14.

OP: You already have a 100k in debt and you're considering taking a two-year break and going back to add another quarter of a million dollars (at least) later on? Even if you do get into medical school, you wouldn't get started with your career until your mid-thirties (start at 26, graduate at 30, done with residency by 33-36 depending on speciality) and you'd be saddled with an astronomical amount of debt when you did. This is not cutting your losses; it's amplifying them.

If this is about being out of debt in a reasonable timeframe (and your fears of being DESTITUTE certainly seem to imply it is), attempting to go to medical school at this point in your life will not advance that goal.

Suck it up and keep hustling for a legal job.

I admit I am no expert in medical school admissions universe, so my advice may be a bit off reality. However, I know many friends who got into medical schools with 3.5+ GPA. They had requisite MCAT scores and some volunteer/research experience.

Re: law school, as a 2L who struck out, the person in question (not just OP, but any others in similar situation) is under tremendous risk to incur twice more law school debt for shitty employment prospects. I hope you look up the definition of 'suck cost fallacy', in this scenario.

Obviously, dropping out with 100k debt is far better than >200k in debt. In addition - even if OP is able to land a legal job, due to bimodal salary distribution of law grads, he won't touch a salary that will service his level of debt and opportunity cost incurred from law school, assuming s/he doesn't get big law job.

And fyi - even if you attend an 'excellent' law school - if you struck out at OCI, you don't seem to get much employment benefit out of having attended a top school. I mean, I looked at some threads here with unemployment/under-employment data from top law schools. If my memory serves correct, there were people from Harvard Law School who graduated unemployed, and took jobs as school funded fellowships.

If I were OP, I would make a strong effort to find out if his/her background makes him/her eligible for IP or not. If it is indeed the case that BA in Bio would give a strong advantage for biglaw hiring via IP qualification - then sticking out in law school may make sense. Otherwise, I would drop out and wouldn't look back.

P.S - every dentist I know is making at least >100k a year. And, yes, dental schools are much, much easier to get into than medical schools. Everyone I know in dental school were ex-med school gunners who didn't cut it at med school admissions. Indeed, dental school would be a fantastic fallback option for a unsuccessful med school applicant who happens to have high GPA in sciences.

[worldtraveler]

I actually think a joint degree might be a good option, if your school also has a decent science program. It's possible you could get a TA position or a fellowship through your MA that would cut down on costs as well. It would also give you a 2nd chance at OCI.
This is all assuming you could tolerate spending more time in school.

[KidStuddi]

I admit I am no expert in medical school admissions universe, so my advice may be a bit off reality. However, I know many friends who got into medical schools with 3.5+ GPA. They had requisite MCAT scores and some volunteer/research experience.

Re: law school, as a 2L who struck out, the person in question (not just OP, but any others in similar situation) is under tremendous risk to incur twice more law school debt for shitty employment prospects. I hope you look up the definition of 'suck cost fallacy', in this scenario.

Obviously, dropping out with 100k debt is far better than >200k in debt. In addition - even if OP is able to land a legal job, due to bimodal salary distribution of law grads, he won't touch a salary that will service his level of debt and opportunity cost incurred from law school, assuming s/he doesn't get big law job.

If I were OP, I would make a strong effort to find out if his/her background makes him/her eligible for IP or not. If it is indeed the case that BA in Bio would give a strong advantage for biglaw hiring via IP qualification - then sticking out in law school may make sense. Otherwise, I would drop out and wouldn't look back.

P.S - every dentist I know is making at least >100k a year. And, yes, dental schools are much, much easier to get into than medical schools. Everyone I know in dental school were ex-med school gunners who didn't cut it at med school admissions. Indeed, dental school would be a fantastic fallback option for a unsuccessful med school applicant who happens to have high GPA in sciences.

I'm aware of the financial risks of remaining in school paying sticker without BigLaw. I'm not saying they're great. I'm saying the alternatives you propose are not better.

You're pushing dental school as if it's the golden ticket. It's not. You sound every bit as naive as the students who went to law school thinking everyone makes 160 starting.
Salaries for dentists are not universally great. The gap between the haves and have-nots are not unique to the practice of law: http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job ... Experience

Dental school can very plausibly cost 350k. OP owes 100k already. It would take ~7 years from now to finish. That means starting a career at 31 with 450k in school debt. Even if dental school was guaranteed to start you at six figures (hint: it's not), it still wouldn't put OP in a better position than finishing up a degree at a T6 law school without BigLaw lined up.

[ajr]

It's ridiculous to think that striking out at 2L OCI is the end of a career. There is much of life ahead of you. If you want to drop out (and go to dental school) every time you have a rough patch of a few months, you are not going to get anywhere. Stay with it.
If you drop out, it must be because you don't like it.

[LeBronBBall]

Dental school can very plausibly cost 350k. OP owes 100k already. It would take ~7 years from now to finish. That means starting a career at 31 with 450k in school debt.

Let's manage facts. After a 30 second google search, I was able to find out: 1) In most states, residency is not required for a general dentist (NY seems to be one of few exceptions where 1 year of residency is required), 2) Residency is typically reserved for specialties within dentistry (orthodontists, etc), however the specialists typically make significantly more than general dentists, hence their opportunity cost of pursuing residency is more than justified over long term, 3) Dentistry is a highly regulated industry and supply vs demand equation is under control; meaning most, if not all, of trained dentists land jobs as dentists and actually have solid careers.

Now, combine these variables with the fact that the working conditions of dentists tend to be much more pleasant compared to that of even big firm lawyers. 40-45 hour work weeks, little downward risks, not being subject to 'up or out' policy at work, no real risk of being laid off, no bullshit office politics, and the list goes on.

Lastly - I believe OP stands a healthy chance at med school admissions. Judging from the fact that OP is at top 6 law, my guess is OP is a strong performer with standardized tests. Anyone with 3.7+ GPA in a pre-med major is in a very competitive position for med school application, if requisite MCAT score is achieved. My brother got into a medical school with a 3.5 GPA.

I'm aware of the financial risks of remaining in school paying sticker without BigLaw. I'm not saying they're great. I'm saying the alternatives you propose are not better.

I suspect your proposition that OP stays in law school is subject to more downward risk. Unless OP qualifies for IP lit and lands Biglaw via IP lit, chances are strong s/he will graduate unemployed, or end up taking a legal job paying 50-60k/yr, with more than 200k in debt. That outcome is, frankly, worse than that of a high school dropout who worked his way up in retail management.

The key difference between your proposition that OP stays in law school and my proposition is that your proposition entails a high chance in leading OP to throw good money after bad. At least with regards to medical or dental school, the debt/opportunity costs incurred would be justified since OP would be nearly guaranteed a solid career after medical/dental training.

Bottom line - unless OP stands a healthy chance at biglaw as 3L via IP lit qualification, staying put in law school dropping extra ~150k isn't justified.

[lolwat]

Personally -

You're at a T6.
You just struck out of 2L OCI, which means you still have 4 semesters worth of grades before you graduate.
You have IP.

If you like the law and want to stay in it, stop failing at classes and focus on them while continuing to send out resumes (to the extent mass mailing is even available anymore in October, it's been a while since I've had to deal with that). If you crush law school these two semesters you should be in a decent position (top 1/3, top 15-20%, whatever the cut-off is at your school) to do 3L OCI (that one Loyola Patent thing and 3L OCI should get you something in IP) and clerkships (good grades at a T6 will get you one if you're smart about your applications). If anything, you'd just have to come up with some crap but plausible excuse as to why you didn't do a 2L SA.

I didn't get shit until I actually graduated and passed the bar, and I think I'm alright now. I didn't even graduate from a T6, though my grades were significantly better than yours. But given how things work, I think median at T6 is probably the equivalent of top 10% at my school anyway.

[midwesTT]

OP did you also attend Loyola PLIP? I personally found that PLIP >>>>>> OCI. Granted, I go to a TT.

For what it's worth, I met a lot of other law students at PLIP and no one I met was T6. I only met one person from T14.

And, there were quite a few firms (70ish?) interviewing for 3Ls.

[sky7]

OP, how did you go through OCI with your good science GPA and had no firm trying to put you in the IP group?

iono man. i didn't sell it? who knows. no one is looking for non-phd cell bio in their IP group right now?

I think that probably has something to do with OP having only a B.S. A Ph. D. is almost a must for life sciences IP.

The conventional wisdom on here about needing a doctorate for life science is a bunch of bollocks.
I was heavily recruited for IP groups with a BS in neuroscience. I put "Eligible to sit for the Patent Bar Exam" on my resume and got tons of interest. Out of all of the screeners / callbacks I did, I met exactly one attorney with a PhD and it was in botany for fuck's sake.
Saying a PhD is required to break into life sciences IP is about as true as saying an CoA clerkship is necessary to do general litigation. It undoubtedly helps, but it is far from a requirement.

This. Anyone who tells you otherwise obviously isn't in the business, and has been misinformed. The NUMBER ONE thing you can do is start reaching out to the major IP players like Fish/Finnegan/Fitzpatrick, and even some of the boutiques (Oblon, Sughrue, BSKB). Mass mail. Then politely follow up within the week. I'd eat my hat if you didn't get a taker.