Philadelphia market - help!? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I think the poster means "crappy" as not being the large M&A public comp. deals that experience with would benefit large NYC firms. This is only from my understanding of 1 firm, but I think a lot of the philly firms do smaller PE deals or supplement larger deals. And the lit is probably not for the largest companies that NYC firms are doing.

I have a few friends at different big 4 firms in DE, and at least before and a little during ITE many associates who really wanted to, were able to lateral to different markets - CHI/NYC/DC. I think they were 3rd-4th year associates, though. The thing with DE firms is that you work for the NY/LA/CHI/DC law firm strictly on the DE part of the deal/litigation, and you become specialized mostly in DE law. But people who really wanted to, were able to develop relationships with these firms and ended up lateraling.

As far as lateraling from a philly firm, I would focus on MLB/Dechert, or going to one of the other firms and entering a practice group that is ranked high in chambers. I have a few friends at good philly firms, but not MLB/dechert, that get a significant amount of recruiting calls because their practice group is ranked nationally in chambers. i know its been discussed that "recruiter calls" doesn't = actual ability to lateral but thats all i know about it.

ETA: i agree with r6 about the money/travel. the margins get much bigger 3-5 years, and travel is not a huge pain but not much better than nyc.

[LargeNinCharge]

The cost of living is lower in Philadelphia. People comparing Bryn Mawr to Elizabeth have not been to both places, apparently. Try Bryn Mawr/Wayne/Villanova and Greenwich, CT or Elizabeth and NW Philly. Not even really close. Also, commute times in Philadelphia are lower because you don't have to go so far outside of the city to find a nice place to live.

[Anonymous User]

I mean, the Philadelphia market is nice if you can get it, but it was basically a bloodbath this year. Know a fair number of people who wanted to be in Philly and had ties, but struck out and had to "settle" for a different market. Anecdotally, I've also heard that offer rates at the bigger firms were rough this past summer. If you have even an inkling that you might want to be in NYC, BID NYC! I cannot stress this enough.

[r6_philly]

The cost of living is lower in Philadelphia. People comparing Bryn Mawr to Elizabeth have not been to both places, apparently. Try Bryn Mawr/Wayne/Villanova and Greenwich, CT or Elizabeth and NW Philly. Not even really close. Also, commute times in Philadelphia are lower because you don't have to go so far outside of the city to find a nice place to live.

Apparently people don't understand that US gov. stats don't track small towns but only aggregate metro areas. So philadelphia metro includes Chestnut hill, as well as bryn mawr, but also ardmore and chester. But then Newark-Elizabeth metro also include livingston, orange, roseland etc. I have lived and worked in NYC, north jersey, central jersey, Philadelphia, montco, bucks, delco, the difference isn't as high as you try to make it sounds like.

Also, living in Jersey means you don't have to pay the NYC income tax. Working (but not living in Philly) still mean that you have to pay the Philly wage tax. Also sales tax is 8% and there is now a 10% drink tax in Philly.

And Bryn Mawr is no where near the COL of Greenwich. Apparently people who would make the comparison has obviously not been to both places.

[r6_philly]

The cost of living is lower in Philadelphia. People comparing Bryn Mawr to Elizabeth have not been to both places, apparently. Try Bryn Mawr/Wayne/Villanova and Greenwich, CT or Elizabeth and NW Philly. Not even really close. Also, commute times in Philadelphia are lower because you don't have to go so far outside of the city to find a nice place to live.

Why is 0L posting here anyway?

[dreakol]

The cost of living is lower in Philadelphia. People comparing Bryn Mawr to Elizabeth have not been to both places, apparently. Try Bryn Mawr/Wayne/Villanova and Greenwich, CT or Elizabeth and NW Philly. Not even really close. Also, commute times in Philadelphia are lower because you don't have to go so far outside of the city to find a nice place to live.

Why is 0L posting here anyway?

oh shit, he's not in law school yet? he must not know anything about philly living expenses or commute times.

[keg411]

Tons of people who live in the Short Hills/Livingston/Roseland/North Caldwell/Springfield areas of NJ commute into the city for work (and that's ignoring the equivalent areas Bergen County). It's not really something you do in your early-mid 20's when you have no family, but it's definitely prevalent among families with school-aged kids. There are also a few towns that are still pretty nice and cheaper (like West Orange). Property taxes are high, but you also save money on the other side because the public school system is generally awesome (as much as Chris Christie is trying to ruin it).

I don't know what prices are like in the Philadelphia 'burbs, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're basically the same. From generally living in both areas, I feel like there are more "options" in the NYC suburbs (because you not only have choices in NJ, but there's Long Island, Westchester, parts of CT, etc.), whereas in Philadelphia you have the general Cherry Hill vicinity or the Main Line area and I dunno how much else.

[HeavenWood]

Tons of people who live in the Short Hills/Livingston/Roseland/North Caldwell/Springfield areas of NJ commute into the city for work (and that's ignoring the equivalent areas Bergen County). It's not really something you do in your early-mid 20's when you have no family, but it's definitely prevalent among families with school-aged kids. There are also a few towns that are still pretty nice and cheaper (like West Orange). Property taxes are high, but you also save money on the other side because the public school system is generally awesome (as much as Chris Christie is trying to ruin it).

I don't know what prices are like in the Philadelphia 'burbs, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're basically the same. From generally living in both areas, I feel like there are more "options" in the NYC suburbs (because you not only have choices in NJ, but there's Long Island, Westchester, parts of CT, etc.), whereas in Philadelphia you have the general Cherry Hill vicinity or the Main Line area and I dunno how much else.

You get a bit less house for your dollar in Livingston/Millburn compared to Lower Merion/Radnor, and taxes are higher, but I would say there's a huge overall difference in COL. Cherry Hill is a great value (median home price is half that of Livingston, and if I understand correctly, housing stock is fairly similar, albeit somewhat less upscale overall). Philly has a lot more upscale suburban enclaves than just those two you listed (Moorestown/the Haddons, Medford, Lower Moreland, Upper Dublin, Whitemarsh, Media Area, etc).

[Anonymous User]

Putting issues of cost of living aside, I'm really interested in the type of work in corporate law, the reputation and future career opportunities in philly. I have one year of legal experience in nyc and its a long story but basically am thinking of trying to penetrate legal market for a few years and then moving from there (to another big city, ny, la, chicago, who knows). In the long run, I want to work for a large law firm (corporate) but have been told that going from big law in ny to philly will ruin chances in the future and that philly law is a dead end. Is this true? How do people honestly feel about this?

[keg411]

Tons of people who live in the Short Hills/Livingston/Roseland/North Caldwell/Springfield areas of NJ commute into the city for work (and that's ignoring the equivalent areas Bergen County). It's not really something you do in your early-mid 20's when you have no family, but it's definitely prevalent among families with school-aged kids. There are also a few towns that are still pretty nice and cheaper (like West Orange). Property taxes are high, but you also save money on the other side because the public school system is generally awesome (as much as Chris Christie is trying to ruin it).

I don't know what prices are like in the Philadelphia 'burbs, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're basically the same. From generally living in both areas, I feel like there are more "options" in the NYC suburbs (because you not only have choices in NJ, but there's Long Island, Westchester, parts of CT, etc.), whereas in Philadelphia you have the general Cherry Hill vicinity or the Main Line area and I dunno how much else.

You get a bit less house for your dollar in Livingston/Millburn compared to Lower Merion/Radnor, and taxes are higher, but I would say there's a huge overall difference in COL. Cherry Hill is a great value (median home price is half that of Livingston, and if I understand correctly, housing stock is fairly similar, albeit somewhat less upscale overall). Philly has a lot more upscale suburban enclaves than just those two you listed (Moorestown/the Haddons, Medford, Lower Moreland, Upper Dublin, Whitemarsh, Media Area, etc).

I consider part of the two bolded the "Cherry Hill" area. I think North NJ (which itself is spread out to the Essex County area, the Bergen County area, the Hudson County area, etc.), Long Island, Westchester and CT are generally a bigger land-mass and a much bigger variety than the areas you mentioned as suburbs of Philly. I mean, Moorestown/the Haddons/Collingswood/Cherry Hill are like just saying Livingston/Millburn/Short Hills/Roseland/Springfield and leaving out the rest.

Also, Millburn proper is actually far different from the Short Hills subdivision. I'd say that's actually one of the best deals in the area, but people don't want to live there for various reasons (for two, a lot more multi-family zoning and lack of zip code preftige).

[r6_philly]

oh shit, he's not in law school yet? he must not know anything about philly living expenses or commute times.

I assume he is KJD because he didn't present himself otherwise. And no, most 0Ls don't know enough about living expenses and commute times at two places. If you grew up in one area and go to school in another, maybe you have a little perspective. Look we are arguing about aftertax income/household budget/long term commute times, in two distinct metro areas. It takes real experience to just get a partial picture.

[r6_philly]

You get a bit less house for your dollar in Livingston/Millburn compared to Lower Merion/Radnor, and taxes are higher, but I would say there's a huge overall difference in COL. Cherry Hill is a great value (median home price is half that of Livingston, and if I understand correctly, housing stock is fairly similar, albeit somewhat less upscale overall). Philly has a lot more upscale suburban enclaves than just those two you listed (Moorestown/the Haddons, Medford, Lower Moreland, Upper Dublin, Whitemarsh, Media Area, etc).

On tax:

Remember PA income tax is a flat rate with no deductions. So for a family (people with lots of deductions) tax liability is higher in PA.

So PA + Philly is around 6.5-7% flat on ALL income. (3% PA + 3.5 nonresident/3.9% resident)

Jersey allows some deductions and 160k + bonus comes up to about 3.6% based on their progressive income rate. No city tax.

ETA: Actually you can get a credit for property tax paid as an income deduction (or 18% of rent paid) so the rate may end up being lower.

So let's call 3% savings and that's $4800 or about $400 a month. Should make up the difference in property/rent price if not more.

[HeavenWood]

Tons of people who live in the Short Hills/Livingston/Roseland/North Caldwell/Springfield areas of NJ commute into the city for work (and that's ignoring the equivalent areas Bergen County). It's not really something you do in your early-mid 20's when you have no family, but it's definitely prevalent among families with school-aged kids. There are also a few towns that are still pretty nice and cheaper (like West Orange). Property taxes are high, but you also save money on the other side because the public school system is generally awesome (as much as Chris Christie is trying to ruin it).

I don't know what prices are like in the Philadelphia 'burbs, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're basically the same. From generally living in both areas, I feel like there are more "options" in the NYC suburbs (because you not only have choices in NJ, but there's Long Island, Westchester, parts of CT, etc.), whereas in Philadelphia you have the general Cherry Hill vicinity or the Main Line area and I dunno how much else.

You get a bit less house for your dollar in Livingston/Millburn compared to Lower Merion/Radnor, and taxes are higher, but I would say there's a huge overall difference in COL. Cherry Hill is a great value (median home price is half that of Livingston, and if I understand correctly, housing stock is fairly similar, albeit somewhat less upscale overall). Philly has a lot more upscale suburban enclaves than just those two you listed (Moorestown/the Haddons, Medford, Lower Moreland, Upper Dublin, Whitemarsh, Media Area, etc).

I consider part of the two bolded the "Cherry Hill" area. I think North NJ (which itself is spread out to the Essex County area, the Bergen County area, the Hudson County area, etc.), Long Island, Westchester and CT are generally a bigger land-mass and a much bigger variety than the areas you mentioned as suburbs of Philly. I mean, Moorestown/the Haddons/Collingswood/Cherry Hill are like just saying Livingston/Millburn/Short Hills/Roseland/Springfield and leaving out the rest.

Also, Millburn proper is actually far different from the Short Hills subdivision. I'd say that's actually one of the best deals in the area, but people don't want to live there for various reasons (for two, a lot more multi-family zoning and lack of zip code preftige).

Moorestown and the Haddons are distinct from Cherry Hill/Voorhees/Evesham (Marlton)/Mount Laurel. Unlike the latter affluent (but soulless, sprawling, and a goddamned eyesore in my opinion, a problem the outer Pennsylvania suburbs and much of North Jersey also share), cookie-cutter post-WWII developments, Moorestown and the Haddons were old streetcar suburbs that have remained charming as the years have gone on, sort of like Montclair.

The New York metro area has a lot more choices because the New York metro area is just so much bigger. But proportionally speaking, Philadelphia is not very far behind. If you'd like me to name an exhaustive laundry list of affluent suburbs, I'd be more than happy to do so...

[keg411]

^ I meant more Haddons/Moorestown were in the same geographical area, not that they're the same as Cherry Hill in terms of atmosphere. My basic point was just that the NY metro (outside of NYC and commutable to NYC) is bigger and offers more choice and more geographic choice just by sheer size.

[HeavenWood]

^ I meant more Haddons/Moorestown were in the same geographical area, not that they're the same as Cherry Hill in terms of atmosphere. My basic point was just that the NY metro (outside of NYC and commutable to NYC) is bigger and offers more choice and more geographic choice just by sheer size.

True. The only problem is getting into NYC from an affluent suburb like Greenwich or Livingston takes a long time and requires public transportation if you plan on making a rush hour commute. At absolute worst, Lower Merion to Center City Philadelphia by car takes a little over a half hour. Haddonfield can be done in under 20 minutes.

[r6_philly]

^ I meant more Haddons/Moorestown were in the same geographical area, not that they're the same as Cherry Hill in terms of atmosphere. My basic point was just that the NY metro (outside of NYC and commutable to NYC) is bigger and offers more choice and more geographic choice just by sheer size.

I also know people commuting to Philly from Delaware, northern Maryland, out 422 all the way up to Reading, north to Yardley/Princeton, West to Exton and beyond. And all the towns in Jersey. Population density isn't like NYC metro, but there are pretty much just as big of a commutable area (and further because of less traffic) and similar number of choices.

[keg411]

^ I meant more Haddons/Moorestown were in the same geographical area, not that they're the same as Cherry Hill in terms of atmosphere. My basic point was just that the NY metro (outside of NYC and commutable to NYC) is bigger and offers more choice and more geographic choice just by sheer size.

I also know people commuting to Philly from Delaware, northern Maryland, out 422 all the way up to Reading, north to Yardley/Princeton, West to Exton and beyond. And all the towns in Jersey. Population density isn't like NYC metro, but there are pretty much just as big of a commutable area (and further because of less traffic) and similar number of choices.

I meant areas where a not-insignificant amount of people commute. Hell, I have cousins that do the hour commute to Philly from the Brandywine valley area... but I can't imagine it's super common.

[r6_philly]

At absolute worst, Lower Merion to Center City Philadelphia by car takes a little over a half hour. Haddonfield can be done in under 20 minutes.

Can be done is not always. I commuted in this town for more than 10 years, you guys are right about the better days, but on average it would be a bit more. Our highways are 2-3 lanes, and all it takes is one fender bender to turn that 20-30 minutes into 40 or more. You know it takes me more than 30 minutes everyday to get to school right? And you know I live closer.

[HeavenWood]

^ I meant more Haddons/Moorestown were in the same geographical area, not that they're the same as Cherry Hill in terms of atmosphere. My basic point was just that the NY metro (outside of NYC and commutable to NYC) is bigger and offers more choice and more geographic choice just by sheer size.

I also know people commuting to Philly from Delaware, northern Maryland, out 422 all the way up to Reading, north to Yardley/Princeton, West to Exton and beyond. And all the towns in Jersey. Population density isn't like NYC metro, but there are pretty much just as big of a commutable area (and further because of less traffic) and similar number of choices.

Some people definitely do commute from far out. The difference is that in Philly, unlike NYC, it's very easy/takes a very short amount of time to get into the city center from more than a small handful of desirable suburbs.

[HeavenWood]

At absolute worst, Lower Merion to Center City Philadelphia by car takes a little over a half hour. Haddonfield can be done in under 20 minutes.

Can be done is not always. I commuted in this town for more than 10 years, you guys are right about the better days, but on average it would be a bit more. Our highways are 2-3 lanes, and all it takes is one fender bender to turn that 20-30 minutes into 40 or more. You know it takes me more than 30 minutes everyday to get to school right? And you know I live closer.

I never take the highway when I want to get into Center City from Penn Valley during rush hour. Depending on the traffic report, I'll usually take PA-23 to West River Drive through to the Ben Franklin Parkway. That takes 25 minutes on a good day, 35 minutes on a bad one. The commute in from Jersey is more consistent to be sure. Even coming in from Voorhees, it's rare that the drive over the bridge takes more than a half hour. Traffic simply flows better by virtue of NJ-38/70 and the two bridges.

You also live in a very dense inner suburb, from which your only real recourse into Center City is taking one of the inevitably backed-up city streets. The Eastern Main Line through to Center Delco, and pretty much anywhere in South Jersey, are more or less the "commute sweet spot."

[r6_philly]

I meant areas where a not-insignificant amount of people commute. Hell, I have cousins that do the hour commute to Philly from the Brandywine valley area... but I can't imagine it's super common.

Actually the Leigh Valley to Philly commute is pretty common. That's why 76 is always a mess - people getting to the NE extension to Lansdale and 422 to Collegeville/Phoenixville. Most mid-income families don't have many choices. City schools are lousy, and they can't afford to buy in Lower Merion so they go farther out.

[HeavenWood]

I meant areas where a not-insignificant amount of people commute. Hell, I have cousins that do the hour commute to Philly from the Brandywine valley area... but I can't imagine it's super common.

Actually the Leigh Valley to Philly commute is pretty common. That's why 76 is always a mess - people getting to the NE extension to Lansdale and 422 to Collegeville/Phoenixville. Most mid-income families don't have many choices. City schools are lousy, and they can't afford to buy in Lower Merion so they go farther out.

I think what more greatly deters a lot of mid-income families from living in places like Havertown or Springfield, where the commute is short and the schools are perfectly good, is a lack of affordable new construction. Montgomeryville, Horsham, Downingtown, West Chester, etc. are similarly affluent, but offer a lot of new homes at a decent price.

I'm not knocking NYC. I'm just saying there are some respects in which living in/around Philadelphia can be advantageous.

[r6_philly]

At absolute worst, Lower Merion to Center City Philadelphia by car takes a little over a half hour. Haddonfield can be done in under 20 minutes.

Can be done is not always. I commuted in this town for more than 10 years, you guys are right about the better days, but on average it would be a bit more. Our highways are 2-3 lanes, and all it takes is one fender bender to turn that 20-30 minutes into 40 or more. You know it takes me more than 30 minutes everyday to get to school right? And you know I live closer.

I never take the highway when I want to get into Center City from Penn Valley during rush hour. Depending on the traffic report, I'll usually take PA-23 to West River Drive through to the Ben Franklin Parkway. That takes 25 minutes on a good day, 35 minutes on a bad one. The commute in from Jersey is more consistent to be sure. Even coming in from Voorhees, it's rare that the drive over the bridge takes more than a half hour. Traffic simply flows better by virtue of NJ-38/70 and the two bridges.

You also live in a very dense inner suburb, from which your only real recourse into Center City is taking one of the inevitably backed-up city streets. The Eastern Main Line through to Center Delco, and pretty much anywhere in South Jersey, are more or less the "commute sweet spot."

Ya Jersey is much better, western suburbs just isn't as good day in and day out. The river drives are a 50/50 proposition and accidents pretty much daily. If you commuted a few years you will get frustrated over time. Kelly Drive can be a 5 minute thing or a 25 minute things, and at rush hour it's usually more the latter.

[r6_philly]

Double post

[r6_philly]

I meant areas where a not-insignificant amount of people commute. Hell, I have cousins that do the hour commute to Philly from the Brandywine valley area... but I can't imagine it's super common.

Actually the Leigh Valley to Philly commute is pretty common. That's why 76 is always a mess - people getting to the NE extension to Lansdale and 422 to Collegeville/Phoenixville. Most mid-income families don't have many choices. City schools are lousy, and they can't afford to buy in Lower Merion so they go farther out.

I think what more greatly deters a lot of mid-income families from living in places like Havertown or Springfield, where the commute is short and the schools are perfectly good, is a lack of affordable new construction. Montgomeryville, Horsham, Downingtown, West Chester, etc. are similarly affluent, but offer a lot of new homes at a decent price.

You need to check PSSA scores in Delco. They are no longer decent schools.