The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Imokay]

Hey guys. I know this is strange but:
I grew up rather poor. I’ve spent most of my teens and 20s busting hard to try to get out of that poverty. I have struggled a lot grade wise. I didn’t get any interviews at 2L oci.

But today, after sending out an unholy amount of apps and doing so many interviews this month alone....I had a win. My only job offer, but I’m going to take it. 120,000 a year.
I’ve only ever lived on 20,000 a year. We grew up in poverty. And I’ve constantly looked at this forum for advice my entire education, but never really thanked yall:

I know it’s hard right now with the pandemic. I was terrified of not getting a job because there was a real chance I would lose my childhood home as a result of losing both my parents during law school.

But I had a win, and I really hope y’all looking keep at it. Because you all can do it.

[Anonymous User]

Hey guys. I know this is strange but:
I grew up rather poor. I’ve spent most of my teens and 20s busting hard to try to get out of that poverty. I have struggled a lot grade wise. I didn’t get any interviews at 2L oci.

But today, after sending out an unholy amount of apps and doing so many interviews this month alone....I had a win. My only job offer, but I’m going to take it. 120,000 a year.
I’ve only ever lived on 20,000 a year. We grew up in poverty. And I’ve constantly looked at this forum for advice my entire education, but never really thanked yall:

I know it’s hard right now with the pandemic. I was terrified of not getting a job because there was a real chance I would lose my childhood home as a result of losing both my parents during law school.

But I had a win, and I really hope y’all looking keep at it. Because you all can do it.

Can you walk through your timeline and also give some clarifying info (school tier/gpa range)? Also, congrats these types of updates give me a shred of hope!

[HereToReadAndWrite]

Hello, everyone! I just remembered reading these stories from when I originally applied to law school. I am excited to finally join this exclusive group of 3Ls who lack a good legal job offer. It is a noble tradition.

Thankfully, my membership in the Vale isn't all that miserable. I am at a Top 14 school in my home state with a nearly full scholarship. My TLS reading prior to law school inspired the proper dread of taking on an oppressive amount of debt and got me to study to a very good LSAT score - while not quite getting me to avoid law school altogether. I decided to commute to law school from my parents' house in order to keep costs down (This worked out great since most of my class is basically doing this now due to COVID and we have electronic classes anyway). Unfortunately, I have become rather tied down to my local area with some commitments further limiting my job prospects.

I am working part-time at a small local law firm which I am hopeful will give me a job offer. If not, I am planning to continuing to mass mail local firms and possibly moving on to either Doc Review or a non-legal job. I don't really care about future earning potential or even being a lawyer (I like the people at my part-time job, but do not find the work particularly fulfilling). I just want enough money to live on (not with my parents) while I do other things in my spare time, possibly reporting or writing.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a Doc Review job before passing the bar? Is Doc Review really that miserable or is it mainly the lack of potential for advancement which gets to people?

And for any lurking 0 L's, avoid debt at all costs. In a sense, I may have wasted 3 years (though they have been decently happy years for me), but at least I am basically at the same place as I was before starting.

[burritotaco]

Hello, everyone! I just remembered reading these stories from when I originally applied to law school. I am excited to finally join this exclusive group of 3Ls who lack a good legal job offer. It is a noble tradition.

Thankfully, my membership in the Vale isn't all that miserable. I am at a Top 14 school in my home state with a nearly full scholarship. My TLS reading prior to law school inspired the proper dread of taking on an oppressive amount of debt and got me to study to a very good LSAT score - while not quite getting me to avoid law school altogether. I decided to commute to law school from my parents' house in order to keep costs down (This worked out great since most of my class is basically doing this now due to COVID and we have electronic classes anyway). Unfortunately, I have become rather tied down to my local area with some commitments further limiting my job prospects.

I am working part-time at a small local law firm which I am hopeful will give me a job offer. If not, I am planning to continuing to mass mail local firms and possibly moving on to either Doc Review or a non-legal job. I don't really care about future earning potential or even being a lawyer (I like the people at my part-time job, but do not find the work particularly fulfilling). I just want enough money to live on (not with my parents) while I do other things in my spare time, possibly reporting or writing.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a Doc Review job before passing the bar? Is Doc Review really that miserable or is it mainly the lack of potential for advancement which gets to people?

And for any lurking 0 L's, avoid debt at all costs. In a sense, I may have wasted 3 years (though they have been decently happy years for me), but at least I am basically at the same place as I was before starting.

My understanding is you have to be barred to do most doc review because firms want to charge for an attorney's salary, not an intern's.

[Anonymous User]

How does someone who was able to get a full ride to a T14 end up jobless?

[andythefir]

Hello, everyone! I just remembered reading these stories from when I originally applied to law school. I am excited to finally join this exclusive group of 3Ls who lack a good legal job offer. It is a noble tradition.

Thankfully, my membership in the Vale isn't all that miserable. I am at a Top 14 school in my home state with a nearly full scholarship. My TLS reading prior to law school inspired the proper dread of taking on an oppressive amount of debt and got me to study to a very good LSAT score - while not quite getting me to avoid law school altogether. I decided to commute to law school from my parents' house in order to keep costs down (This worked out great since most of my class is basically doing this now due to COVID and we have electronic classes anyway). Unfortunately, I have become rather tied down to my local area with some commitments further limiting my job prospects.

I am working part-time at a small local law firm which I am hopeful will give me a job offer. If not, I am planning to continuing to mass mail local firms and possibly moving on to either Doc Review or a non-legal job. I don't really care about future earning potential or even being a lawyer (I like the people at my part-time job, but do not find the work particularly fulfilling). I just want enough money to live on (not with my parents) while I do other things in my spare time, possibly reporting or writing.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a Doc Review job before passing the bar? Is Doc Review really that miserable or is it mainly the lack of potential for advancement which gets to people?

And for any lurking 0 L's, avoid debt at all costs. In a sense, I may have wasted 3 years (though they have been decently happy years for me), but at least I am basically at the same place as I was before starting.

Seems to me the proximate cause for your issues are geographic inflexibility. I think all of the top 14 schools are in fairly flooded legal markets. If you want to work as a lawyer, you should apply more broadly. It also takes the edge off student loans if you find government work because you qualify for forgiveness.

[Anonymous User]

Another unemployed 3L joining the vale. Been stressing a lot more than I should be, and figured I'll be around fellow comrades in this space. Little tied up with finals at the moment, but will be applying like crazy over winter break.

Can anyone provide an idea of numbers of non-big-law starting salaries? Specifically private firm work in NYC? This might sound really stupid and stubborn, but I got SHAFTED in the job I got after graduating from undergrad and had no idea I was being paid very little compared to those in a similar position. It was really, really upsetting and I'd like to go in less blind this time around.

[MichelleMichelle]

How does someone who was able to get a full ride to a T14 end up jobless?

I graduated from a T6 without a job, and didn't find one for about 1.5 years. I did a fellowship, I volunteered, I was depressed and felt worthless. Now, 5 years later, I am at a V10 in my chosen market and practice area. I am glad that, when I was jobless, I surrounded myself with people who supported me, and didn't make jackass comments like the above.

Graduating law school without a job is not the end of the world. It is also not that unusual, even for people who go to the top tier schools.

[IAmMuirMan]

Feels like everyday I am rejected from a different job . . .

Firm I was working for in the fall (should've been summer, but COVID) said they wouldn't hire because of COVID. Every other honors program rejected. Non profits rejected. Just trying to keep looking for jobs, and hoping that I can still work in my preferred practice area. Feel an unreal pressure just to accept whatever hires me, but I need someone to tell me that its better to be patient.

[Anonymous User]

Another T14 3L checking in. It happens. I completely struck out in OCI. I also wish people would be less judgemental about it, but I wish a lot of things.

I recently interviewed with a V10 and am waiting to hear back. If I get this offer, suddenly I'm a success story. If I don't, I'm still a failure I guess.

[drwatson2573]

Another T14 3L checking in. It happens. I completely struck out in OCI. I also wish people would be less judgemental about it, but I wish a lot of things.

I recently interviewed with a V10 and am waiting to hear back. If I get this offer, suddenly I'm a success story. If I don't, I'm still a failure I guess.

I was in a pretty similar situation to you. You are not a failure just because you haven't snagged the BigLaw job. There is a lot of life and law practice outside of BigLaw; just gotta keep applying.

[Anonymous User]

Another T14 3L checking in. It happens. I completely struck out in OCI. I also wish people would be less judgemental about it, but I wish a lot of things.

I recently interviewed with a V10 and am waiting to hear back. If I get this offer, suddenly I'm a success story. If I don't, I'm still a failure I guess.

I was in a pretty similar situation to you. You are not a failure just because you haven't snagged the BigLaw job. There is a lot of life and law practice outside of BigLaw; just gotta keep applying.

Thanks for the kind words. It's a tough time to be looking for a job, but I do expect I'll be able to get a job paying at least high 5 digits. I was on scholarship and don't have as much debt as others (and hopefully Grampa Joe will help out a bit?)

My main point re "failure" is how arbitrary the concept of success is. I have friends who went into OCI with great grades and got one (1) offer. Nobody is asking how they struck out in OCI, even though it was a close thing. It was a close thing for me too, I just ended up with zero instead of one. Slight difference. If I get this offer, everyone will forget about my OCI flop and I boost my school's stats. Heck, it's even a better firm than some of these "success" stories, not that I particularly care. I just want a job.

[thewoodsman]

Long time lurker, first time poster (been in the vale for a while). Top of my class at a T3 and the only "OCI" option left for me is lowest level state court clerkship. It's worse than it sounds because in CT you work in a pool of clerks for a group of judges. I'll probably give up on my legal aspirations if my networking doesn't pay off by late spring.

[andythefir]

Long time lurker, first time poster (been in the vale for a while). Top of my class at a T3 and the only "OCI" option left for me is lowest level state court clerkship. It's worse than it sounds because in CT you work in a pool of clerks for a group of judges. I'll probably give up on my legal aspirations if my networking doesn't pay off by late spring.

Do you want to be a lawyer? If not, then something ancillary may make sense. If you do, there are a million opportunities if you’re willing to apply all over the country.

[thewoodsman]

I'd like to be a lawyer and I have enjoyed my work experience during law school, but my odds of making a decent wage seem slim at this point. I'm a little older and was hoping to start a family soon, so I would rather not spend 2-3 years busting my ass at some shit firm making 60k in order to jump to a mid-sized firm and make low six figures with bonus. I don't mean to come across as entitled, as I know you have to put your time in to earn a good salary, but I am definitely considering alternative careers/jobs at this point.

[andythefir]

I think you’ve got your arms around the problem. It’s possible to find work in the law in random places, but the pay will be terrible, and you may need to jump to a second or third random place to have a shot at being where you want to be.

[nixy]

I'd like to be a lawyer and I have enjoyed my work experience during law school, but my odds of making a decent wage seem slim at this point. I'm a little older and was hoping to start a family soon, so I would rather not spend 2-3 years busting my ass at some shit firm making 60k in order to jump to a mid-sized firm and make low six figures with bonus. I don't mean to come across as entitled, as I know you have to put your time in to earn a good salary, but I am definitely considering alternative careers/jobs at this point.

That’s perfectly fair. The real question of course is what alternatives are available to you with better pay. (There may be lots, I don’t know your situation.)

[Anonymous User]

Long time lurker, first time poster (been in the vale for a while). Top of my class at a T3 and the only "OCI" option left for me is lowest level state court clerkship. It's worse than it sounds because in CT you work in a pool of clerks for a group of judges. I'll probably give up on my legal aspirations if my networking doesn't pay off by late spring.

Do you want to be a lawyer? If not, then something ancillary may make sense. If you do, there are a million opportunities if you’re willing to apply all over the country.

Can you speak more to these opportunities? Jobless 3L here.

[Anonymous User]

Can you speak more to these opportunities? Jobless 3L here.

Here's an enlightening post. There are many like it. The gist is if you're willing to work in rural DA/PD/government litigator positions, the are opportunities. The pay won't be great, but you can rely on PSLF and your COL will be very low .

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=299516#p10367034

[andythefir]

Can you speak more to these opportunities? Jobless 3L here.

Here's an enlightening post. There are many like it. The gist is if you're willing to work in rural DA/PD/government litigator positions, the are opportunities. The pay won't be great, but you can rely on PSLF and your COL will be very low .

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=299516#p10367034

Now that I have some distance from
It, I’d say that spraying resumes all over the country will work if you know you want to be a lawyer and just need that crucial 3ish years to separate yourself from the unwashed masses of functional interns that apply to every desirable job. My specific experience was in DA/PD offices in southern New Mexico, but I’m sure the same dynamic is at work in middle of nowhere Wyoming or Montana. The bad news is that if you hustle, leverage, keep hustling and leverage, then you eventually get to lower middle class (unless you’re willing to hustle with opening a solo shop and accepting divorce/DUI work from an entire region). It was worth it for me because I like being a lawyer, but objectively applying to be an ATF or DEA agent or something else that’s law-adjacent is a better move.

[Anonymous User]

2020 T14 graduate still jobless. Its been 8 months and all I've got are rejection emails. I had 1 interview with a big lawbfirm in November and thought I crushed the screener but didn't get a callback and they hired someone from a school outside the t14 with an LLM from my school. I've applied for everything even non prestigious state clerkships and haven't had sucess. My grades aren't good but they aren't godawful either (3.1). I never imagined i would be in this position.

[Anonymous User]

T14 2020 grad here. I've spent the last few months doing a school-funded PI fellowship that seems to have solid exit options into private positions in my desired practice area. Curious about what level to target in firm applications now. Junior positions all ask for at least one year of firm experience, while first-year positions ask for current 3Ls to apply. Not a neat fit for either type, but is one a better option?

(Absolutely applying to both types btw, just want an idea of what to expect/emphasize)

[historyminor]

T14 2020 grad here. I've spent the last few months doing a school-funded PI fellowship that seems to have solid exit options into private positions in my desired practice area. Curious about what level to target in firm applications now. Junior positions all ask for at least one year of firm experience, while first-year positions ask for current 3Ls to apply. Not a neat fit for either type, but is one a better option?

(Absolutely applying to both types btw, just want an idea of what to expect/emphasize)

A classmate of mine struggled to find an associate position with a firm coming off of her PI fellowship, so she took a staff attorney position for a year, and then lateraled to an associate position with another firm. I also have friends who have gotten stuck in the staff attorney jobs, though, so it's definitely not a risk-free approach. One option if you aren't able to break into the associate positions immediately.

[drwatson2573]

2020 T14 graduate still jobless. Its been 8 months and all I've got are rejection emails. I had 1 interview with a big lawbfirm in November and thought I crushed the screener but didn't get a callback and they hired someone from a school outside the t14 with an LLM from my school. I've applied for everything even non prestigious state clerkships and haven't had sucess. My grades aren't good but they aren't godawful either (3.1). I never imagined i would be in this position.

Just have to keep going; I got my job 3 weeks before graduating. Look everywhere that has reciprocity with your state, assuming you're barred (and indicate that you'd be willing to take the bar in July for the states that don't), and if you aren't barred, figure out a state in which to take the bar and carpet mail there. Apply to every type of firm in your market; US News is a good source of some of these places. Don't give up; a T14 degree is a very good thing to have.

[drwatson2573]

How does someone who was able to get a full ride to a T14 end up jobless?

I graduated from a T6 without a job, and didn't find one for about 1.5 years. I did a fellowship, I volunteered, I was depressed and felt worthless. Now, 5 years later, I am at a V10 in my chosen market and practice area. I am glad that, when I was jobless, I surrounded myself with people who supported me, and didn't make jackass comments like the above.

Graduating law school without a job is not the end of the world. It is also not that unusual, even for people who go to the top tier schools.

I second this. I had friends who had a hell of a time getting jobs at my T14 (myself included); some had to graduate and get barred somewhere before they got anything.