The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hello everyone. I'm new to this thread. Long time lurker on the site, only made an account months ago to use the search function.

Rising 3L at UT Austin with median grades. Got no offered from my firm this summer due to lack of business. Nothing but positive reviews from supervisors on work product and personality fit. That honestly hurts more than if they didn't like me or my work. At least then I'd know my future had been in my own hands.

I feel like I've been ran over by a truck. As I'm sure most in this thread can relate. I cried, I drank, I yelled, cried some more ... It's been a tough few days.

I immediately got in touch with the Clerkship people at school and am gonna see if there's anyway I can scoop something, anything up clerkship wise. Even if it's state court somewhere else other than Texas.

I have a question about mass mailing. I've done this shit twice by now, and I know "big law" has sailed for me. So, how does one "mass mail" to smaller and mid sized firms? Especially when there's no recruiter or even a careers page on their website?

Also, do y'all just send resumes? Resumes plus transcripts? Cover letters? Or just a brief introduction in the body of an email with an attached resume?

Feel like I'm living in a bad hangover dream. My family and friends are really worried about me. I haven't been taking this very well at all.

Thanks for any responses.

Sorry to hear it. Here's some info I hope helps:

On clerkships: In addition to talking to Allbright/Ratliff, get on OSCAR right now and sign up for the email updates. I no longer subscribe but when I did there was, about once every couple months, a judge who was looking for someone for the very next term (i.e. to start the next August). Watch for those. Most people who want to clerk for 2017-18 will already have something in the bag or won't have the grades for it. Your grades might be a little stretch, but you can try to improve on them this semester while everyone else is 3LOLing.

In addition, the Tx SG has restarted their post-grad fellowship program for 2016-17, as well as a couple other divisions at the OAG. The indications I've gotten is that they intend to do that every year going forward. I don't know when they plan to take applications for 2017-18, but it posted on WorkInTexas for 2016-17 in August of 2016 (even though it's Sept. 1 start date). Just keep an eye out for it. I assume they'll post it earlier this year. The posting was weird this year and you had to be searching for paralegal or legal assistant positions, so if you have a WorkInTexas account (and you should) be sure to expand your search options.

As to your questions on mass mailing: BigLaw: Don't rule it out entirely. Follow gobiglaw.com and of course Symplicity. Also talk to CSO so that they know you're still looking and will keep you in mind when employers call.

Small firms: I focused on small and mid-size firms, so I know exactly what you mean about not having an obvious point of contact. Things you can do. They're time consuming, but anecdotally I found I got better results when I targeted the right people (pick one and go with it, though put your back up in your spreadsheet as well so you can do your second mass mail to that person if you get no response at all):

(1) Use linkedin to search the firm and see if they have a recruiter, practice administrator, office manager, then figure out that person's email (that's usually easy because attorney's email addresses are on website and show you the pattern). Then google what you think is that person's email and their name to verify that you got it right.

(2) Look through the partners' bios to see if any of them are listed as hiring partner, managing partner, member of the hiring committee, etc., and send to that person

(3) Use the bios to find a partner who went to UT or who practices the particular area of law your resume is strongest for. Or even who shares your hobbies.

As for what to send, I sent Cover Letter, Resume, and Transcripts. I had three different cover letters, one that addressed one area of law specifically, one that addressed one type of practice specifically, and one that could be read to show interest in whatever the reader wanted me to be interested in. When I put my spreadsheet together, I had a column to indicate which cover letter I wanted to send based on the scope of that firm's practice, so that when I mail-merged my cover letters I did three merges, one filtering for cover letter 1, one for cover letter 2, and one for cover letter 3. I also had a very brief description in the email body stating who I was and what was attached.

BTW, If you're looking to stay in Texas, here's a good firm list to start with: Texas 100 (you may have to create an ALM login, but the first 5 stories/month are free, so unless you've been reading Texas Lawyer pretty hard already this week, you can access this.

Thank you so much for all of this. Seeing it written down makes it appear a bit more manageable.

[BVest]

Thank you so much for all of this. Seeing it written down makes it appear a bit more manageable.

No problem. And I won't lie, it takes some serious time, especially the prep. My recommendation is that you go ahead and mass mail every time you add to your spreadsheet. e.g. if on Monday you get 10 new firms in your spreadsheet, go ahead and send to those firms before you close your computer on Monday. Add columns for # of times mailed and last date sent, so that you're not resending too often but can track what you're sending (I usually re-sent after three months but toward the end I let that get down to 45-60 days.)

Exceptions: The first time you mass-mail you'll probably figure some things out and might even find a typo in your cover letter later (I did), so maybe do your first mailing to just two or three firms, possibly even in firms you're only marginally interested in. Then review the next day to see if you need to change how you're doing it.

One other thing... I like to use an email scheduling program (SendLater on mac... but I think they've expanded it to a giant annoying suite. I'm sure there are similar plugins though) because I'd often be working on apps on a Saturday afternoon or late at night. I scheduled my emails to go off at between 7:30 and 8:15 on the following weekday to put it at the top of their inbox.

e: One more note: I struck out at 2L and 3L OCI. I did end up getting a state clerkship, so I had something and was able to restart the process there. I just accepted a firm position starting in September (it's a Texas 100 firm, but not a national/international firm); for them I couldn't figure out who to mail in my target office, so I sent my app to their managing partner in another city who forwarded it to a partner in my target city who happened, at that time, to be looking for a new associate, so I got an interview that day. Though it was my first time to mail that firm, I'd also gotten interviews with firms on second and third mailings, so just keep at it. It's all about hitting the right firm at the right time.

[Cant_stump_trump2020]

Thank you so much for all of this. Seeing it written down makes it appear a bit more manageable.

No problem. And I won't lie, it takes some serious time, especially the prep. My recommendation is that you go ahead and mass mail every time you add to your spreadsheet. e.g. if on Monday you get 10 new firms in your spreadsheet, go ahead and send to those firms before you close your computer on Monday. Add columns for # of times mailed and last date sent, so that you're not resending too often but can track what you're sending (I usually re-sent after three months but toward the end I let that get down to 45-60 days.)

Exceptions: The first time you mass-mail you'll probably figure some things out and might even find a typo in your cover letter later (I did), so maybe do your first mailing to just two or three firms, possibly even in firms you're only marginally interested in. Then review the next day to see if you need to change how you're doing it.

One other thing... I like to use an email scheduling program (SendLater on mac... but I think they've expanded it to a giant annoying suite. I'm sure there are similar plugins though) because I'd often be working on apps on a Saturday afternoon or late at night. I scheduled my emails to go off at between 7:30 and 8:15 on the following weekday to put it at the top of their inbox.

e: One more note: I struck out at 2L and 3L OCI. I did end up getting a state clerkship, so I had something and was able to restart the process there. I just accepted a firm position starting in September (it's a Texas 100 firm, but not a national/international firm); for them I couldn't figure out who to mail in my target office, so I sent my app to their managing partner in another city who forwarded it to a partner in my target city who happened, at that time, to be looking for a new associate, so I got an interview that day. Though it was my first time to mail that firm, I'd also gotten interviews with firms on second and third mailings, so just keep at it. It's all about hitting the right firm at the right time.

Thank you. Not sure why my last post went as Anon. This site is a bit wonky. So I had just two interviews at 3L OCI last Friday but have yet to hear back so I'm assuming it's a wash. Sent an email to the Clerkship people yesterday with my finished profile awaiting them to set up and advisor session for me so I can get the ball rolling on that. I'd be totally fine with a state clerkship especially Texas. Do you think taking a state clerkship in a diff state would hurt me? (For example, a ton of state clerkships in Alaska, yes, Alaska opened up. I've been before and think it'd be a cool experience). And yes I want to stay in Texas.

I'm also gonna hit a lot of these firms in Austin on Symplicity that are looking for law clerks. I already stupidly have an internship for the Fall with a gov agency that can't turn into a job so I kinda fucked myself there. Was desperate for something to split my summer with and they required a fall commitment too. Maybe try and swing a law clerk position for the Spring or just hit them with a cold email haha.

My mood ebbs and flows. Sometimes I breathe and say I'm gonna be okay then 5 minutes later I'm an emotional wreck. Thank you for all your pointers.

On LinkedIn, if I'm simply browsing a firm or company's page (to look for administrators etc like you said) am I going to awkwardly pop up on someone's feed as having viewed? I hate that about LinkedIn. I've also set up alerts for any job openings in every major Texas city. There's like two things on Symplicity I'm gonna apply to today.

I'm also quite interested in that fellowship with the OAG you mentioned.

[BVest]

On LinkedIn, if I'm simply browsing a firm or company's page (to look for administrators etc like you said) am I going to awkwardly pop up on someone's feed as having viewed? I hate that about LinkedIn. I've also set up alerts for any job openings in every major Texas city. There's like two things on Symplicity I'm gonna apply to today.

I'm also quite interested in that fellowship with the OAG you mentioned.

I don't know if you'll show up as looking at the firm page, but you won't show up as having looked at individual profiles unless you click on their actual profile. If I find someone who I think I need to look at their profile, I'll first try looking at their profile in an incognito window without logging in. Sometimes their profile is public enough to allow that.

[Anonymous User]

My no offer was via phone call. Pissed me off cause it went around same time friends had gotten offers so I thought I was good.

[Anonymous User]

Received a no offer from my summer firm, allegedly for work performance despite having nearly flawless reviews. I kinda wish firms would be more upfront with the real reasons why people get no offered.

I'm top 1% at my T2 school in a major market, so I figure my best bet is to aim for a federal clerkship. I've always been told that clerkships are reserved for people at T-14 schools, so what are my chances of getting one? I'm willing to go to anywhere in the country really.

[zot1]

Received a no offer from my summer firm, allegedly for work performance despite having nearly flawless reviews. I kinda wish firms would be more upfront with the real reasons why people get no offered.

I'm top 1% at my T2 school in a major market, so I figure my best bet is to aim for a federal clerkship. I've always been told that clerkships are reserved for people at T-14 schools, so what are my chances of getting one? I'm willing to go to anywhere in the country really.

Go and apply now as the clerkship market starts hiring earlier now. If you're willing to go anywhere, a judge will likely pick you. But seriously, you have to do this now.

[Anonymous User]

Received a no offer from my summer firm, allegedly for work performance despite having nearly flawless reviews. I kinda wish firms would be more upfront with the real reasons why people get no offered.

I'm top 1% at my T2 school in a major market, so I figure my best bet is to aim for a federal clerkship. I've always been told that clerkships are reserved for people at T-14 schools, so what are my chances of getting one? I'm willing to go to anywhere in the country really.

Go and apply now as the clerkship market starts hiring earlier now. If you're willing to go anywhere, a judge will likely pick you. But seriously, you have to do this now.

Yeah, as soon as I got the phone call I went on Oscar and started searching through the 2017 available positions. Hopefully by tomorrow or Saturday I can have all of my applications sent out.

I'm just hoping that the blatant no offer on my resume doesn't tank my chances to get a clerkship. I have moot court and law review experience, and I externed for a state appellate judge during my 1L summer, so hopefully that makes up for the bad spots on my resume.

[drs36]

Received a no offer from my summer firm, allegedly for work performance despite having nearly flawless reviews. I kinda wish firms would be more upfront with the real reasons why people get no offered.

I'm top 1% at my T2 school in a major market, so I figure my best bet is to aim for a federal clerkship. I've always been told that clerkships are reserved for people at T-14 schools, so what are my chances of getting one? I'm willing to go to anywhere in the country really.

The bolded is not true. Your chances at a clerkship obviously increase as you go up the rankings, but top 1% at T2 should have a reasonable shot. A lot will depend on where your school is and what you're targeting. For instance, the top folks at a place like Pitt do well in clerkships b/c Pittsburgh has a D.Ct. and many 3d Cir. judges hold their offices in the city.

[Anonymous User]

Received a no offer from my summer firm, allegedly for work performance despite having nearly flawless reviews. I kinda wish firms would be more upfront with the real reasons why people get no offered.

I'm top 1% at my T2 school in a major market, so I figure my best bet is to aim for a federal clerkship. I've always been told that clerkships are reserved for people at T-14 schools, so what are my chances of getting one? I'm willing to go to anywhere in the country really.

The bolded is not true. Your chances at a clerkship obviously increase as you go up the rankings, but top 1% at T2 should have a reasonable shot. A lot will depend on where your school is and what you're targeting. For instance, the top folks at a place like Pitt do well in clerkships b/c Pittsburgh has a D.Ct. and many 3d Cir. judges hold their offices in the city.

School is in the midwest, targeting everything in all markets except for bankruptcy positions.

[BVest]

Received a no offer from my summer firm, allegedly for work performance despite having nearly flawless reviews. I kinda wish firms would be more upfront with the real reasons why people get no offered.

I'm top 1% at my T2 school in a major market, so I figure my best bet is to aim for a federal clerkship. I've always been told that clerkships are reserved for people at T-14 schools, so what are my chances of getting one? I'm willing to go to anywhere in the country really.

Go and apply now as the clerkship market starts hiring earlier now. If you're willing to go anywhere, a judge will likely pick you. But seriously, you have to do this now.

Yeah, as soon as I got the phone call I went on Oscar and started searching through the 2017 available positions. Hopefully by tomorrow or Saturday I can have all of my applications sent out.

I'm just hoping that the blatant no offer on my resume doesn't tank my chances to get a clerkship. I have moot court and law review experience, and I externed for a state appellate judge during my 1L summer, so hopefully that makes up for the bad spots on my resume.

As stated, definitely not true RE clerkships reserved for T14. Some judges will only hire from some schools. For some judges that might be T14 and for others it might be their alma mater. I have friends from lower T1 and T2 schools who are currently in COA clerkships. As well as of course others who are in D Ct and SSC.

I'm also not sure what you mean by a blatant no-offer being on your resume. At this point it should simply be "Firm (City) -- Summer 2016" without any implication of offer/no-offer.

[Anonymous User]

The smaller firm I SA'd for this summer sends out offers in October. I have no reason to believe I won't be getting an offer since they usually offer everyone and I think I did a good job, but you never know until it's official. How do I address this in a cover letter? So far I haven't been talking about offers at all, but it just occurred to me that people may think I got no-offered because I'm dancing around the topic.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Re: clerking & a no-offer - there are plenty of judges who won't ask/care if you got an offer. I'm sure some might, but it's very different from firm hiring and frankly lots of judges don't care.

But I second looking for judges who have any connection to your law school (or undergrad even).

[#BigLaw]

Re: clerking & a no-offer - there are plenty of judges who won't ask/care if you got an offer. I'm sure some might, but it's very different from firm hiring and frankly lots of judges don't care.

But I second looking for judges who have any connection to your law school (or undergrad even).

+1. My judge asked how my SA went, but didn't bother asking whether I got an offer. I don't think he cared -- he was just opening up conversation.

[Anonymous User]

1. If we're current 3Ls, are the only postings worth applying to the ones that specify "Entry Level"? That is, if they say they want something like 2-4 years of law firm experience, don't bother?

2. Re clerkships with judges who have any connection whatsoever with our law schools/undergrads: what if our schools churn out judges & clerks by the dozen? (E.g., HYPS undergrad; HYS). But our grades aren't typically thought of as competitive for the clerkships that everyone scrambles for (Cir., CDCA, etc.)(Bolded in case anyone thinks this is humblebragging, as I assure you it's not; there's nothing remotely boastworthy about my situation).

Wouldn't they be less likely to feel an affinity toward an alum than a judge/partner who attended law schools/undergrads that produce fewer judges/clerks/partners?

[iliketurtles123]

Anyone graduate from school in SoCal who's looking for a job in NYC?

I just graduated from a school in NY but I'm looking for a job in SoCal.
I couldn't get reciprocity granted and it's really limiting my search. I'm looking for someone who can pass along postings from their simplicity and vise versa. I'm not talking about sharing accounts (which probably isn't legal). Just purely passing along information to each other. I'm job hunting everyday so I'm pretty proactive. PM me

[A. Nony Mouse]

1. If we're current 3Ls, are the only postings worth applying to the ones that specify "Entry Level"? That is, if they say they want something like 2-4 years of law firm experience, don't bother?

2. Re clerkships with judges who have any connection whatsoever with our law schools/undergrads: what if our schools churn out judges & clerks by the dozen? (E.g., HYPS undergrad; HYS). But our grades aren't typically thought of as competitive for the clerkships that everyone scrambles for (Cir., CDCA, etc.)(Bolded in case anyone thinks this is humblebragging, as I assure you it's not; there's nothing remotely boastworthy about my situation).

Wouldn't they be less likely to feel an affinity toward an alum than a judge/partner who attended law schools/undergrads that produce fewer judges/clerks/partners?

Maybe? No real idea. But I don't see how that would alter your application strategy. Any connection with a judge is better than no connection at all, so play up the clerking factory if that's what you've got. Even if being one of few is more helpful than being one of many (which I don't really think is true), that doesn't make being one of many not helpful at all.

[Anonymous User]

Re: clerking & a no-offer - there are plenty of judges who won't ask/care if you got an offer. I'm sure some might, but it's very different from firm hiring and frankly lots of judges don't care.

But I second looking for judges who have any connection to your law school (or undergrad even).

That's one of the reasons why I'm hoping I can get a clerkship. From what people have said on here, most judges don't care or won't ask about it, but that definitely won't be the same situation if I strike out and have to interview for firm positions in the Spring.

[zot1]

1. If we're current 3Ls, are the only postings worth applying to the ones that specify "Entry Level"? That is, if they say they want something like 2-4 years of law firm experience, don't bother?

2. Re clerkships with judges who have any connection whatsoever with our law schools/undergrads: what if our schools churn out judges & clerks by the dozen? (E.g., HYPS undergrad; HYS). But our grades aren't typically thought of as competitive for the clerkships that everyone scrambles for (Cir., CDCA, etc.)(Bolded in case anyone thinks this is humblebragging, as I assure you it's not; there's nothing remotely boastworthy about my situation).

Wouldn't they be less likely to feel an affinity toward an alum than a judge/partner who attended law schools/undergrads that produce fewer judges/clerks/partners?

Maybe? No real idea. But I don't see how that would alter your application strategy. Any connection with a judge is better than no connection at all, so play up the clerking factory if that's what you've got. Even if being one of few is more helpful than being one of many (which I don't really think is true), that doesn't make being one of many not helpful at all.

1. Some people apply even if they require 5 years of experience. Most people I think cross the line at 3. Don't bother if it's government and it says bar required. Firms are more flexible.

2. So what? Apply to everything that you'd want to do until you get a job. Worrying about the what ifs isn't helpful.

[Anonymous User]

I got a fed magistrate clerkship with pretty uncompetitive stats (bottom 1/4 at MVP, no LR, no secondary journal, no moot court/mock trial, no judicial externships or anything similar, no prof recommendations). The key was to check OSCAR and the job listings at uscourts every day and look for clerkships that were starting immediately. Obviously mag. clerkships are easier to get, and judges who need someone to start in four weeks rather then sixteen months from now are a lot less choosy.

[Genius]

so far 5 interviews and zero offers. what the shit. still waiting over a month on 2 firms. errrg

[jchiles]

The smaller firm I SA'd for this summer sends out offers in October. I have no reason to believe I won't be getting an offer since they usually offer everyone and I think I did a good job, but you never know until it's official. How do I address this in a cover letter? So far I haven't been talking about offers at all, but it just occurred to me that people may think I got no-offered because I'm dancing around the topic.

I don't think you need to discuss it at all in your cover letter. There are plenty of reasons to be looking for another job as a 3l that don't include getting no offered.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L who interviewed with Latham at OCI's 2 weeks ago. I had a callback at their SD office last Thursday. Awaiting their call now. Never even SA at a firm. Pray for me... Trying to achieve the impossible...

[zot1]

I'm a 3L who interviewed with Latham at OCI's 2 weeks ago. I had a callback at their SD office last Thursday. Awaiting their call now. Never even SA at a firm. Pray for me... Trying to achieve the impossible...

You got this.

[Anonymous User]

I'm a 3L who interviewed with Latham at OCI's 2 weeks ago. I had a callback at their SD office last Thursday. Awaiting their call now. Never even SA at a firm. Pray for me... Trying to achieve the impossible...

You got this.

Appreciate it a lot. Interviews went really well and have connections in the area and to the firm. If this works out, I'll tell my story. Spoiler alert: it's a f-ckin roller coaster.