The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:31 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:41 am
Rising 3L here. Chances of NY BL? 3.7 at T20 with 3.4 median. No law review. Currently interning for a small firm. Initially interested in litigation but at this point I am willing to do anything to chip away at this $200k debt, so I am open to M&A/capital markets work. I am just confused on how to approach firms. My school's career services office has been worthless. When and where should I start reaching out? I did the whole networking thing last fall and made some decent connections, but obviously did not follow through on landing a SA gig. I understand COVID screwed up the timeline a bit, so I was not sure when to start sending applications.
Start looking now. Once a week go to each of the top 100 firm's career pages and apply to any first year associate positions. Don't just rely on what your school posts on their job board. I would also reach out to recruiters directly. Now that you have a higher GPA, you should be a good candidate for those who realize they need more associates in their incoming class. From experience, most of the 3Ls that apply during 3L year have lower GPAs and so recruiters jump on the ones with GPAs that normally would have gotten them a 2L SA gig. You may not see many postings until in the Fall after firms have figured out how many people will be returning, but it absolutely doesn't hurt to start looking now.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by 2013 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:44 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:22 pm
2013 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:30 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:41 am
Rising 3L here. Chances of NY BL? 3.7 at T20 with 3.4 median. No law review. Currently interning for a small firm. Initially interested in litigation but at this point I am willing to do anything to chip away at this $200k debt, so I am open to M&A/capital markets work. I am just confused on how to approach firms. My school's career services office has been worthless. When and where should I start reaching out? I did the whole networking thing last fall and made some decent connections, but obviously did not follow through on landing a SA gig. I understand COVID screwed up the timeline a bit, so I was not sure when to start sending applications.
I’d also start practicing interview skills. Unless your GPA skyrocketed recently, I think it is somewhat weird that someone who is probably top 25% at a top 20 school couldn’t land an SA gig.
I was below median after 1L Fall and kept that gpa up until right before OCI, since 1L Spring went pass/fail. Killed it my 2L, so yeah pretty big jump. I don't think my interview skills were entirely terrible. It's not like I had nervous breakdowns or was totally awkward in my interviews (though who am I to judge myself). I did mock interviews and received feedback on how to approach answers and everything. I felt I unnecessarily restricted myself, by asking only for lit and in secondary markets I didn't have solid ties to (never targeted NY). In hindsight, I should have loaded my interview schedule with those firms. Definitely will practice more
If you were below median before, then that makes a lot more sense. Good job getting that gpa that high!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pm

2013 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:44 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:22 pm
2013 wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:30 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:41 am
Rising 3L here. Chances of NY BL? 3.7 at T20 with 3.4 median. No law review. Currently interning for a small firm. Initially interested in litigation but at this point I am willing to do anything to chip away at this $200k debt, so I am open to M&A/capital markets work. I am just confused on how to approach firms. My school's career services office has been worthless. When and where should I start reaching out? I did the whole networking thing last fall and made some decent connections, but obviously did not follow through on landing a SA gig. I understand COVID screwed up the timeline a bit, so I was not sure when to start sending applications.
I’d also start practicing interview skills. Unless your GPA skyrocketed recently, I think it is somewhat weird that someone who is probably top 25% at a top 20 school couldn’t land an SA gig.
I was below median after 1L Fall and kept that gpa up until right before OCI, since 1L Spring went pass/fail. Killed it my 2L, so yeah pretty big jump. I don't think my interview skills were entirely terrible. It's not like I had nervous breakdowns or was totally awkward in my interviews (though who am I to judge myself). I did mock interviews and received feedback on how to approach answers and everything. I felt I unnecessarily restricted myself, by asking only for lit and in secondary markets I didn't have solid ties to (never targeted NY). In hindsight, I should have loaded my interview schedule with those firms. Definitely will practice more
If you were below median before, then that makes a lot more sense. Good job getting that gpa that high!
I appreciate it, but I don't really understand. Just to clarify, my school's OCI was in January, so firms took into account Fall 2L grades. Did firms really place a much higher weight on 1L Fall grades? I figured they looked merely at the number itself, and maybe a cursory glance at specific grades.Though my 2L classes weren't on as strict of a curve as 1L, they were still black letter. It's just frustrating knowing my credentials on paper are decent, but I still wasn't able to receive anything from biglaw. I guess the limiting factor has to be my interview skills, but I truly don't believe I royally screwed up the screeners. Got a few callbacks so that is a sign I'm doing something right, no? Is everyone else just blowing their interviews out of the water?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pm
I appreciate it, but I don't really understand. Just to clarify, my school's OCI was in January, so firms took into account Fall 2L grades. Did firms really place a much higher weight on 1L Fall grades? I figured they looked merely at the number itself, and maybe a cursory glance at specific grades.Though my 2L classes weren't on as strict of a curve as 1L, they were still black letter. It's just frustrating knowing my credentials on paper are decent, but I still wasn't able to receive anything from biglaw. I guess the limiting factor has to be my interview skills, but I truly don't believe I royally screwed up the screeners. Got a few callbacks so that is a sign I'm doing something right, no? Is everyone else just blowing their interviews out of the water?
Similar thing for me, don’t worry too too much about it. My 1L year I ended with a ~3.50 at T20, and I struck out for 2L SA. I got lots of OCI screeners, two outside OCI screeners, and ended up going 0/2 on total callbacks. I was targeting litigation in non-NY/DC.

2L year, I improved to mid 3.6X. Applied heavily for 3L hiring for BL lit and never got a single screener. Switched to applying for Corp last semester of 3L (covid delayed hiring to take into account though). Got something like 5-6 screeners, 3 callbacks, and 2 offers both V10.

I worried both years that it had to be my interviewing. Lots of classmates with lower GPAs did just fine. But, each year of law school I leaned heavily on CSO for cover letter reviews, transcript reviews, and mock interviews. I did 3+ mock interviews every single year. I did even more for clerkship purposes too. Ultimately, best I can guess based on final results is that it’s just a bit of a crap shoot, particularly for lit in secondary markets. I’m sure being a first-gen might have had a small impact, or maybe that I am young and I look it? I still sometimes worry there is something wrong with my materials due to my difficulty in even getting screeners for 3L BL and clerkships. But, if that’s the case I’m not sure what to do since my cover letter and resume have been through multiple reviews from CSO, mentors, and the clerkship program.

Tl;dr: I experienced similar doubt and worry about the weird process. Do everything you can to improve your materials and interviewing, but there are likely some intangibles beyond that too that you may never quite figure out.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:09 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:15 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:46 pm
I appreciate it, but I don't really understand. Just to clarify, my school's OCI was in January, so firms took into account Fall 2L grades. Did firms really place a much higher weight on 1L Fall grades? I figured they looked merely at the number itself, and maybe a cursory glance at specific grades.Though my 2L classes weren't on as strict of a curve as 1L, they were still black letter. It's just frustrating knowing my credentials on paper are decent, but I still wasn't able to receive anything from biglaw. I guess the limiting factor has to be my interview skills, but I truly don't believe I royally screwed up the screeners. Got a few callbacks so that is a sign I'm doing something right, no? Is everyone else just blowing their interviews out of the water?
Similar thing for me, don’t worry too too much about it. My 1L year I ended with a ~3.50 at T20, and I struck out for 2L SA. I got lots of OCI screeners, two outside OCI screeners, and ended up going 0/2 on total callbacks. I was targeting litigation in non-NY/DC.

2L year, I improved to mid 3.6X. Applied heavily for 3L hiring for BL lit and never got a single screener. Switched to applying for Corp last semester of 3L (covid delayed hiring to take into account though). Got something like 5-6 screeners, 3 callbacks, and 2 offers both V10.

I worried both years that it had to be my interviewing. Lots of classmates with lower GPAs did just fine. But, each year of law school I leaned heavily on CSO for cover letter reviews, transcript reviews, and mock interviews. I did 3+ mock interviews every single year. I did even more for clerkship purposes too. Ultimately, best I can guess based on final results is that it’s just a bit of a crap shoot, particularly for lit in secondary markets. I’m sure being a first-gen might have had a small impact, or maybe that I am young and I look it? I still sometimes worry there is something wrong with my materials due to my difficulty in even getting screeners for 3L BL and clerkships. But, if that’s the case I’m not sure what to do since my cover letter and resume have been through multiple reviews from CSO, mentors, and the clerkship program.

Tl;dr: I experienced similar doubt and worry about the weird process. Do everything you can to improve your materials and interviewing, but there are likely some intangibles beyond that too that you may never quite figure out.
Hey, thanks so much for this reply. I am glad I am not the only one who went through a similar ordeal during 2L OCI. Congrats on your offers! And yeah, it is frustrating knowing my classmates who probably have lesser grades were much more successful at OCI. I'm also a first-gen student (minority as well). I'm working with my CSO to at least clean up my application materials so those are prepared enough to send out. Will definitely schedule more mock interviews to target and work on my weak points.

Did you still target secondary markets for those corporate positions, or did you switch to NY/DC? Regardless, was your process what someone above mentioned, which was to basically massmail the V100 and their recruiters?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:09 pm
Hey, thanks so much for this reply. I am glad I am not the only one who went through a similar ordeal during 2L OCI. Congrats on your offers! And yeah, it is frustrating knowing my classmates who probably have lesser grades were much more successful at OCI. I'm also a first-gen student (minority as well). I'm working with my CSO to at least clean up my application materials so those are prepared enough to send out. Will definitely schedule more mock interviews to target and work on my weak points.

Did you still target secondary markets for those corporate positions, or did you switch to NY/DC? Regardless, was your process what someone above mentioned, which was to basically massmail the V100 and their recruiters?
Thank you, and happy to help. I continued applying to secondary markets in the same state as my school.

My strategy was very similar. I mass-mailed for lit positions at first, but I never saw any postings for lit first-years. When I finally admitted defeat, I started mass-mailing for corporate. I also found several (maybe 5-10) postings for corporate first-years throughout 3L year. Every interview I got was from mass-mailing as opposed to postings, and both offers came from cold emails to recruiters.

I know some people had luck emailing practice heads or partners directly, but I did not. I did 10-20 networking calls with partners and associates, but it never yielded anything worthwhile job-wise.

Ultimately, I think your best chance is just from putting in the work and blanketing firms with applications. The firms that did vs did not bite for me did not at all correlate to my interest in the firm or who I thought I had the best chance with based on gpa data or general notions of selectivity. Also make sure to specifically work on your narrative for what happened at OCI and why corporate. Those two questions came up in every interview I did 3L.

Good luck with your search!

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:26 pm

A couple entry level positions listed on my school's Symplicity page. Perhaps this is a sign that 3L hiring is up?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:46 pm

What firms have posted openings?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:04 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:46 pm
What firms have posted openings?
Kirkland and Morgan Lewis

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:05 pm

If top firms are hiring 3Ls for select practice groups, are they only looking at 3Ls who summered at other big law firms? I ask because I've heard the credential requirements don't really change.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by mwells_56 » Sat Jun 26, 2021 1:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:05 pm
If top firms are hiring 3Ls for select practice groups, are they only looking at 3Ls who summered at other big law firms? I ask because I've heard the credential requirements don't really change.
I landed a big law job as a 3L without firm experience, but I spent my 2L summer at a F100 company and had a connection at the firm. Also, by the time I got around to interviewing, my GPA had climbed up to the point where I was big law-qualified, whereas at OCI I was borderline.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:05 pm
If top firms are hiring 3Ls for select practice groups, are they only looking at 3Ls who summered at other big law firms? I ask because I've heard the credential requirements don't really change.
What do you mean by credential requirement? As in GPA and law review?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:06 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:05 pm
If top firms are hiring 3Ls for select practice groups, are they only looking at 3Ls who summered at other big law firms? I ask because I've heard the credential requirements don't really change.
Similar to above. Got Big Law job 3L year and several screeners and call backs from V50 firms. Worked in government after 2L. I will say grades improved fall 3L, but yeah it def is possible. Also note I am at T2 school.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:06 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:05 pm
If top firms are hiring 3Ls for select practice groups, are they only looking at 3Ls who summered at other big law firms? I ask because I've heard the credential requirements don't really change.
Similar to above. Got Big Law job 3L year and several screeners and call backs from V50 firms. Worked in government after 2L. I will say grades improved fall 3L, but yeah it def is possible. Also note I am at T2 school.
To piggy back off of this, I know of someone who recently got an offer at a v10. 3L at a T20 who did not summer. However, it looks like they had work experience directly related to the practice group. I unfortunately don't know more than that (e.g., gpa, class rank, etc.), but it looks like firms are active.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:37 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:05 pm
If top firms are hiring 3Ls for select practice groups, are they only looking at 3Ls who summered at other big law firms? I ask because I've heard the credential requirements don't really change.
Depends on the firm, but many BL firms right now are hiring on the corporate side because they need bodies. I'm not saying they're lowering their standards, but I don't think they're looking for people with prior BL experience. On the lit side it may be different, though, because lit is becoming much more competitive

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:54 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:15 am

2L year, I improved to mid 3.6X. Applied heavily for 3L hiring for BL lit and never got a single screener. Switched to applying for Corp last semester of 3L (covid delayed hiring to take into account though). Got something like 5-6 screeners, 3 callbacks, and 2 offers both V10.
Curious how long it took for your offers/rejections to come in after your callbacks?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:08 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:37 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:05 pm
If top firms are hiring 3Ls for select practice groups, are they only looking at 3Ls who summered at other big law firms? I ask because I've heard the credential requirements don't really change.
Depends on the firm, but many BL firms right now are hiring on the corporate side because they need bodies. I'm not saying they're lowering their standards, but I don't think they're looking for people with prior BL experience. On the lit side it may be different, though, because lit is becoming much more competitive
Is this specific to any certain locations, or across the board?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:54 pm
Anonymous User wrote:
Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:15 am

2L year, I improved to mid 3.6X. Applied heavily for 3L hiring for BL lit and never got a single screener. Switched to applying for Corp last semester of 3L (covid delayed hiring to take into account though). Got something like 5-6 screeners, 3 callbacks, and 2 offers both V10.
Curious how long it took for your offers/rejections to come in after your callbacks?
The only callbacks I had were for corporate, but I received most answers within two business days. However, the offer I ended up accepting came 10 days (including a weekend) after CB.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:26 pm

Those of you that secured a 3L big law after striking out 2L year, did your gpa change drastically?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by mwells_56 » Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:50 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:26 pm
Those of you that secured a 3L big law after striking out 2L year, did your gpa change drastically?
I went from 3.26 -> 3.43, helped by a generous covid p/f policy at my school. Was a bit below median and ended up a bit above.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:30 pm

T-30, 3.46 (probably hair above median; unranked), substantial WE that shows I will stay put at one place but nothing useful like IB, rest of resume is mediocre, e.g., secondary journal.

I know this is a dumb question but do you think my stats can get me a 3L screener at the following firms?
K&E Chicago, L&W / W&C NY. I really want to go to a firm with an office abroad for personal reasons and most of those firms tend to be very elite. I am willing to hustle but is this even possible given I only have a year to build up my resume?

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by pikapika66666 » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:07 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:30 pm
T-30, 3.46 (probably hair above median; unranked), substantial WE that shows I will stay put at one place but nothing useful like IB, rest of resume is mediocre, e.g., secondary journal.

I know this is a dumb question but do you think my stats can get me a 3L screener at the following firms?
K&E Chicago, L&W / W&C NY. I really want to go to a firm with an office abroad for personal reasons and most of those firms tend to be very elite. I am willing to hustle but is this even possible given I only have a year to build up my resume?
I emailed W&C NY asking about 3L hiring and they said they cannot invite me to an interview atm. Not sure whether it's due to my qualifications or they are actually not hiring for 3Ls now. Just a data point.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:25 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:30 pm
T-30, 3.46 (probably hair above median; unranked), substantial WE that shows I will stay put at one place but nothing useful like IB, rest of resume is mediocre, e.g., secondary journal.

I know this is a dumb question but do you think my stats can get me a 3L screener at the following firms?
K&E Chicago, L&W / W&C NY. I really want to go to a firm with an office abroad for personal reasons and most of those firms tend to be very elite. I am willing to hustle but is this even possible given I only have a year to build up my resume?
I hear that L&W has a strict 3.65 gpa cutoff. Don't know about other firms though

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:21 pm

I understand Quinn Emanuel does a lot of 3L hiring but what about for applicants without a 2L SA on their resume? Got a screener for the LA office and was unsure if it was worth doing considering that glaring omission.

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Re: The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls)

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:39 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:21 pm
I understand Quinn Emanuel does a lot of 3L hiring but what about for applicants without a 2L SA on their resume? Got a screener for the LA office and was unsure if it was worth doing considering that glaring omission.
Law firms typically will not waste their time with screeners--they would not offer you one if they were not at least a little bit interested in hiring you.

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