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Is this place as bad as its reputation says it is? Seemed a bit like a sweatshop when I did my CB (for various reasons), but does anyone know firsthand?

Anonymous User wrote:Is this place as bad as its reputation says it is? Seemed a bit like a sweatshop when I did my CB (for various reasons), but does anyone know firsthand?

I'm also very curious as to Cravath culture generally. I clicked with nearly everyone I met and didn't at all get a pretentious vibe, which shocked me. I'm tempted to cancel my other callbacks because I liked it, but I don't want to sell my soul. Is it really worse than the other V5/10?

I don't think that the people at Cravath are awful, I just think that you're expected to work more than you would at any other V10, save Wachtell. And when you're not being paid Wachtell dollars, a lot of people opt for places with more humane expectations. Also, give some serious thought to what it would be like to have a partner essentially keeping tabs on you at all times, as opposed to more of doing your own thing.

Anonymous User wrote:Is this place as bad as its reputation says it is? Seemed a bit like a sweatshop when I did my CB (for various reasons), but does anyone know firsthand?

Depends what you want. It's not a good firm for quality of life, but certainly it is prestigious with excellent exit options.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Is this place as bad as its reputation says it is? Seemed a bit like a sweatshop when I did my CB (for various reasons), but does anyone know firsthand?

Depends what you want. It's not a good firm for quality of life, but certainly it is prestigious with excellent exit options.

Does it really have better exit options than, say, DPW? On the one hadn, Cravath is Cravath. On the other hand, quibbling about prestige points at this level is silly.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Is this place as bad as its reputation says it is? Seemed a bit like a sweatshop when I did my CB (for various reasons), but does anyone know firsthand?

Depends what you want. It's not a good firm for quality of life, but certainly it is prestigious with excellent exit options.

Does it really have better exit options than, say, DPW? On the one hadn, Cravath is Cravath. On the other hand, quibbling about prestige points at this level is silly.

No. Your experience and the skills you have developed at that point will matter far more significantly than the name on your business card. Some firms do have institutional connections and well-greased pipelines that may help obtaining certain positions, though.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Is this place as bad as its reputation says it is? Seemed a bit like a sweatshop when I did my CB (for various reasons), but does anyone know firsthand?

Depends what you want. It's not a good firm for quality of life, but certainly it is prestigious with excellent exit options.

Does it really have better exit options than, say, DPW? On the one hadn, Cravath is Cravath. On the other hand, quibbling about prestige points at this level is silly.

No. Your experience and the skills you have developed at that point will matter far more significantly than the name on your business card. Some firms do have institutional connections and well-greased pipelines that may help obtaining certain positions, though.

But that won't matter if deciding between CSM and DPW.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Is this place as bad as its reputation says it is? Seemed a bit like a sweatshop when I did my CB (for various reasons), but does anyone know firsthand?

Depends what you want. It's not a good firm for quality of life, but certainly it is prestigious with excellent exit options.

Does it really have better exit options than, say, DPW? On the one hadn, Cravath is Cravath. On the other hand, quibbling about prestige points at this level is silly.

No. Your experience and the skills you have developed at that point will matter far more significantly than the name on your business card. Some firms do have institutional connections and well-greased pipelines that may help obtaining certain positions, though.

Yep. Cravath will give you a well-greased pipeline, that's for sure. If not, the experience there would be all the more painful.

I worked there as a paralegal before law school. While my pov isn't nearly as informed as an attorney's, I've always found the negative aspects of the rep to be amusing and overhyped. Speaking generally, your experience as a junior attorney at CSM would not very be different from S&C NY or Skadden NY (or many other NY firms, for that matter. Newsflash: they are all sweatshops). Quibbling or not, the prestige factor is nice. Even having just worked there as a paralegal, the CSM luster has seemed to open doors for me and has proved helpful in various situations. Lawyers tend to be fascinated by the firm in a way that they aren't regarding its peers (WLRK excepted, if that's considered a peer for purposes of this discussion).

I'm happy to answer PMs about the firm but don't have all that much to say beyond the above.

BigLaw is BigLaw. Cravath is great if you are happy with BigLaw hours and you like the people there. If you won't be happy with BigLaw hours, and/or you have reason to believe that you won't like the people at Cravath, then don't go to Cravath.

The internetz need fodder for conversation, so they invent or exaggerate characteristics of firms. A lot of partners at Cravath will work you very, very hard. So will a lot of partners at Goodwin Procter. Moreover, general statements about diverse groups of 500+ people are generally pretty pointless.

At a minimum, be aware that TLS is not going to help you make this decision. Most of the people here are aspiring/current law students who know almost nothing relevant. There are some full-time associates here too, but Vault should tell you how useful associates' opinions of other firms are. For instance, notice how Cravath is ranked #9 in Products Liability on Vault, per the votes of current law firm associates from other firms? Problem: Cravath does virtually no Products Liability work.

alabamabound wrote:I worked there as a paralegal before law school. While my pov isn't nearly as informed as an attorney's, I've always found the negative aspects of the rep to be amusing and overhyped. Speaking generally, your experience as a junior attorney at CSM would not very be different from S&C NY or Skadden NY (or many other NY firms, for that matter. Newsflash: they are all sweatshops). Quibbling or not, the prestige factor is nice. Even having just worked there as a paralegal, the CSM luster has seemed to open doors for me and has proved helpful in various situations. Lawyers tend to be fascinated by the firm in a way that they aren't regarding its peers (WLRK excepted, if that's considered a peer for purposes of this discussion).

I'm happy to answer PMs about the firm but don't have all that much to say beyond the above.

Huh?

Anonymous User wrote:

alabamabound wrote:I worked there as a paralegal before law school. While my pov isn't nearly as informed as an attorney's, I've always found the negative aspects of the rep to be amusing and overhyped. Speaking generally, your experience as a junior attorney at CSM would not very be different from S&C NY or Skadden NY (or many other NY firms, for that matter. Newsflash: they are all sweatshops). Quibbling or not, the prestige factor is nice. Even having just worked there as a paralegal, the CSM luster has seemed to open doors for me and has proved helpful in various situations. Lawyers tend to be fascinated by the firm in a way that they aren't regarding its peers (WLRK excepted, if that's considered a peer for purposes of this discussion).

I'm happy to answer PMs about the firm but don't have all that much to say beyond the above.

Huh?

In my experience, CSM and WLRK are fascinating to the average lawyer in a way that S&C, Skadden etc. aren't. Sorry if that wasn't clear above, though it seems clear to me re-reading it.

alabamabound wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

alabamabound wrote:I worked there as a paralegal before law school. While my pov isn't nearly as informed as an attorney's, I've always found the negative aspects of the rep to be amusing and overhyped. Speaking generally, your experience as a junior attorney at CSM would not very be different from S&C NY or Skadden NY (or many other NY firms, for that matter. Newsflash: they are all sweatshops). Quibbling or not, the prestige factor is nice. Even having just worked there as a paralegal, the CSM luster has seemed to open doors for me and has proved helpful in various situations. Lawyers tend to be fascinated by the firm in a way that they aren't regarding its peers (WLRK excepted, if that's considered a peer for purposes of this discussion).

I'm happy to answer PMs about the firm but don't have all that much to say beyond the above.

Huh?

In my experience, CSM and WLRK are fascinating to the average lawyer in a way that S&C, Skadden etc. aren't. Sorry if that wasn't clear above, though it seems clear to me re-reading it.

I see. I think that's reasonably accurate. But that's not really a good factor in determining whether to accept an offer or not, believe it or not. Cravath probably isn't even in the top 5 of places that the top HLS students want to go. And that's not to say that it's not a great firm--far from it--but just something to keep in mind. Peer fascination isn't a good way to pick a job.

alabamabound wrote:I worked there as a paralegal before law school. While my pov isn't nearly as informed as an attorney's, I've always found the negative aspects of the rep to be amusing and overhyped. Speaking generally, your experience as a junior attorney at CSM would not very be different from S&C NY or Skadden NY (or many other NY firms, for that matter. Newsflash: they are all sweatshops). Quibbling or not, the prestige factor is nice. Even having just worked there as a paralegal, the CSM luster has seemed to open doors for me and has proved helpful in various situations. Lawyers tend to be fascinated by the firm in a way that they aren't regarding its peers (WLRK excepted, if that's considered a peer for purposes of this discussion).

I'm happy to answer PMs about the firm but don't have all that much to say beyond the above.

Out of curiosity, how are you so confident in saying that "[one's] experience at a junior attorney at CSM would not very be different from S&C NY or Skadden NY"? You were only a paralegal at one of those firms, correct? I know one person who has experience at DPW and Cravath, and another who has experience at Cleary and Cravath. The way they talked, the experience of junior associates is absolutely different, especially in terms of things like how easy it is to plan for vacations and not have to worry too much about canceling those plans.

alabamabound wrote:I worked there as a paralegal before law school. While my pov isn't nearly as informed as an attorney's, I've always found the negative aspects of the rep to be amusing and overhyped. Speaking generally, your experience as a junior attorney at CSM would not very be different from S&C NY or Skadden NY (or many other NY firms, for that matter. Newsflash: they are all sweatshops). Quibbling or not, the prestige factor is nice. Even having just worked there as a paralegal, the CSM luster has seemed to open doors for me and has proved helpful in various situations. Lawyers tend to be fascinated by the firm in a way that they aren't regarding its peers (WLRK excepted, if that's considered a peer for purposes of this discussion).

I'm happy to answer PMs about the firm but don't have all that much to say beyond the above.

One associate told me 9am-9:30pm M-F, and at least one full day a weekend, was standard. Is that accurate, according to what you experienced while working there? Those hours just seem excessive without Wachtell pay.

Lots of people at DPW had turned down Cravath offers. The V5/V10ish firms are really, really similar and work on the same shit with each other all the time.

CSM and Wachtell by all counts have associates who put in more hours on average. No getting around that. But at every other V5/V10ish firm there will be associates who work more than the average at Cravath. It all depends.

Anonymous User wrote:Cravath probably isn't even in the top 5 of places that the top HLS students want to go. And that's not to say that it's not a great firm--far from it--but just something to keep in mind. Peer fascination isn't a good way to pick a job.

True---especially when the peer fascination always seems to be of the "God, why do they do that to themselves?" variety.

In my experience, CSM and WLRK are fascinating to the average lawyer in a way that S&C, Skadden etc. aren't.

Probably one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on this forum.

And I keep thinking to myself that it can't get any worse. But then someonone like you comes along and writes something like this.

Fresh Prince wrote:

In my experience, CSM and WLRK are fascinating to the average lawyer in a way that S&C, Skadden etc. aren't.

Probably one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on this forum.

And I keep thinking to myself that it can't get any worse. But then someonone like you comes along and writes something like this.

the dude said, "in my experience." So why don't you offer a different experience or GTFO. You are the fucking worst.

kwais wrote:

Fresh Prince wrote:

In my experience, CSM and WLRK are fascinating to the average lawyer in a way that S&C, Skadden etc. aren't.

Probably one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on this forum.

And I keep thinking to myself that it can't get any worse. But then someonone like you comes along and writes something like this.

the dude said, "in my experience." So why don't you offer a different experience or GTFO. You are the fucking worst.

You're almost as bad as this guy. How can you experience this??? You see some lawyer reading the WSJ and he sees CSM and says "wowwwww CSM," but doesn't react similarly to seeing DPW? Or better yet, you've worked at both places and see interviewers react differently? It's fucking hilarious to imagine.

Here's a different experience: CSM, DPW, S&C, CGSH, and STB are all regarded similiarly for 99% of the shit lawyers at those firms end up wanting to do. And it's insignificantly superior to WGM, C&B, K&E, D&P, and PW.

Edit: depends really on department. Exit options for litigators almost universally are shittier than exit options for corporate. Also depends on client base. STB for the fast track to KKR and S&C to the big banks, though they aren't mutually exclusive.

Cravath probably isn't even in the top 5 of places that the top HLS students want to go.

To the anonymous person who wrote that, what are the top 5 places that the top HLS students want to go? (You can PM me if you'd like.)
Thanks.

Crescat scientia wrote:

Cravath probably isn't even in the top 5 of places that the top HLS students want to go.

To the anonymous person who wrote that, what are the top 5 places that the top HLS students want to go? (You can PM me if you'd like.)
Thanks.

Other poster but I can almost guarantee that the answer is:

Williams and Connolly
Wachtell
Kellogg Huber/Susman/Bartlitt Beck/Keker
Govt (SG, OWHC, DOJ, etc..)
Clerkship -> Teaching

Anonymous User wrote:

Crescat scientia wrote:

Cravath probably isn't even in the top 5 of places that the top HLS students want to go.

To the anonymous person who wrote that, what are the top 5 places that the top HLS students want to go? (You can PM me if you'd like.)
Thanks.

Other poster but I can almost guarantee that the answer is:

Williams and Connolly
Wachtell
Kellogg Huber/Susman/Bartlitt Beck/Keker
Govt (SG, OWHC, DOJ, etc..)
Clerkship -> Teaching

TCR is probably four DC offices and WLRK, but yea.

I'm curious: Why are Harvard students so sold on WLRK but not Cravath? Is it just that the bonuses are bigger? presumably partner chances are just as minimal at WLRK?

jd20132013 wrote:I'm curious: Why are Harvard students so sold on WLRK but not Cravath? Is it just that the bonuses are bigger? presumably partner chances are just as minimal at WLRK?

WLRK offers higher chances of partnership and much higher pay. The added admiration of your peers is a bonus.