Top Law Schools

.

It sounds like they are trying to tell you that some firms won't hire you simply because of your background. Otherwise, their advice doesn't make sense as you should be in at 99% of big firms. You should check nalp directory for the racial make up of their recent summer class. If a firm on your list didn't hire 1 URM from you background last summer to be an SA, you should at least consider replacing them for a firm that did.

Anonymous User wrote:I've been talking to OCS but they've been relatively unhelpful. They keep telling me "I think you'll have a great cycle" but when I ask them what they think my safeties/targets/reaches are, I get the feeling they're dancing around things to avoid hurting my feelings (they keep on noting how selective some of the firms I mention are, but don't suggest any safeties)

It's like, damn, there's nothing you can say that will hurt more than if I overreach and get nothing.

So, what should I be looking at for DC? Are there any Chambers Band 1 or 2 litigation firms that would be targets as URM top 33%?

1. Williams & Connolly, LLP (Washington, DC)
2. Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP (Washington, DC)
3. Covington & Burling (Washington, DC)
4. Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Washington, DC)
5. Jenner & Block LLP (Washington, DC)
7. Hogan Lovells (Washington, DC)
8. WilmerHale (Washington, DC)
9. Sullivan & Cromwell LLP (Washington, D.C. and NY)
10. Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP (New York, NY)

Are all these firms extreme reaches or do I have a good shot at getting at least one of them? How about Cleary or Steptoe? Thanks.

EDIT: I should mention that I have multiple instances of legal work experience on my resume(3-4 distinct places)

You likely have very strong chances at every firm on your list with the exception of Williams & Connolly. I speak from my own experience as a URM who did EIP last summer with very similar stats, and got callbacks and offers from several top DC firms and nearly every NYC V10 I interviewed with. (Note: Wachtell was not among them, and I don't think you have that great of a shot there, if that matters.) Things like the strength of your undergraduate program and any graduate degrees might add to your chances. I can't say with certainty whether it matters exactly what kind of URM you are, so I'm not sure about that aspect. Of course, always keep in mind that it's about more than just grades/school, and interview skills will come into play. But as I said, you're in a great position.

ETA: If you're interested in DC, consider adding Arnold & Porter to your list. It's generally considered to be up there with Covington and Wilmer. Also, for the sake of having safeties, your bid list should be more than 10 firms long. I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of practice areas, so take that into account when adding firms, but maybe consider adding between 5 and 10 more or so just to feel safe. Ideally NYC firms with big summer classes, just because DC can be a tough market even for the best candidates, so you don't want to put nearly all of your eggs into that basket. But, generally, I don't see a need for you to go below V20 or V25 when seeking safeties unless you want to.

Sorry, I didn't post my whole bidlist because it had some secondary markets that would provide some identifying information. I hit pretty much every relatively high "ranked" ( I hate using Vault as if its Usnews but it provides an easy way to sort) firm in DC. So I do have Sidley, King and Spaulding, OMM, etc.

Arnold and Porter is on my list, but I think I may have it too low. My undergrad isn't Ivy but it's a well regarded state school.

I have Wachtell at the very bottom of my list. Really have no interest in what they do (have minimal interest in NY, but would strongly consider Cravath/Paul Weiss, of course, because of their litigation strength)

It sounds like they are trying to tell you that some firms won't hire you simply because of your background.

that would suck if that was what was going on, I think (hope) that I wouldn't come across as assuming that.

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:I've been talking to OCS but they've been relatively unhelpful. They keep telling me "I think you'll have a great cycle" but when I ask them what they think my safeties/targets/reaches are, I get the feeling they're dancing around things to avoid hurting my feelings (they keep on noting how selective some of the firms I mention are, but don't suggest any safeties)

It's like, damn, there's nothing you can say that will hurt more than if I overreach and get nothing.

So, what should I be looking at for DC? Are there any Chambers Band 1 or 2 litigation firms that would be targets as URM top 33%?

1. Williams & Connolly, LLP (Washington, DC)
2. Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP (Washington, DC)
3. Covington & Burling (Washington, DC)
4. Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Washington, DC)
5. Jenner & Block LLP (Washington, DC)
7. Hogan Lovells (Washington, DC)
8. WilmerHale (Washington, DC)
9. Sullivan & Cromwell LLP (Washington, D.C. and NY)
10. Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP (New York, NY)

Are all these firms extreme reaches or do I have a good shot at getting at least one of them? How about Cleary or Steptoe? Thanks.

EDIT: I should mention that I have multiple instances of legal work experience on my resume(3-4 distinct places)

You likely have very strong chances at every firm on your list with the exception of Williams & Connolly. I speak from my own experience as a URM who did EIP last summer with very similar stats, and got callbacks and offers from several top DC firms and nearly every NYC V10 I interviewed with. (Note: Wachtell was not among them, and I don't think you have that great of a shot there, if that matters.) Things like the strength of your undergraduate program and any graduate degrees might add to your chances. I can't say with certainty whether it matters exactly what kind of URM you are, so I'm not sure about that aspect. Of course, always keep in mind that it's about more than just grades/school, and interview skills will come into play. But as I said, you're in a great position.

ETA: If you're interested in DC, consider adding Arnold & Porter to your list. It's generally considered to be up there with Covington and Wilmer. Also, for the sake of having safeties, your bid list should be more than 10 firms long. I'm not sure what you're looking for in terms of practice areas, so take that into account when adding firms, but maybe consider adding between 5 and 10 more or so just to feel safe. Ideally NYC firms with big summer classes, just because DC can be a tough market even for the best candidates, so you don't want to put nearly all of your eggs into that basket. But, generally, I don't see a need for you to go below V20 or V25 when seeking safeties unless you want to.

You should have a great chance at almost any firm. I disagree that you don't have a good shot at Wachtell... At least if URM=AA. After having conversations with Wachtell's first black partner, I know they are making an effort with diversity hiring.

I'm also not sure about basing your bidding (as one poster suggested) on whether the firm had diversity in their last summer class. I know from a fact that my firm, while it doesn't have a great track record for success in diversity hiring, actively recruits URM applicants. They feel pretty bad about their poor track record for diversity, and are trying to get better.

Sorry to interfere with this thread, but can someone extrapolate on the point about firms not hiring people from certain backgrounds? If you are in the top quarter of students at Harvard, do firms honestly still care where you attended undergrad? If so, that's just depressing.

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to interfere with this thread, but can someone extrapolate on the point about firms not hiring people from certain backgrounds? If you are in the top quarter of students at Harvard, do firms honestly still care where you attended undergrad? If so, that's just depressing.

"background" =/= where you went to undergrad. HTH.

Aberzombie1892 wrote:It sounds like they are trying to tell you that some firms won't hire you simply because of your background. Otherwise, their advice doesn't make sense as you should be in at 99% of big firms. You should check nalp directory for the racial make up of their recent summer class. If a firm on your list didn't hire 1 URM from you background last summer to be an SA, you should at least consider replacing them for a firm that did.

I think its more that OCS offices always err on the side of being pessimistic. Much better to have a student feel that he "outperformed" what they thought he would than the other way around. DC can afford to be super picky. Additionally, law firm hiring is not like law school admissions where you can pretty much predict based on numbers how an applicant will fare. With some top NYC firms that give offers to most people above a certain GPA threshold, you might be able to predict, but not with DC.

You black?

rad lulz wrote:You black?

I hesitate to answer because I see a snarky comment coming but yes I am

Anonymous User wrote:

rad lulz wrote:You black?

I hesitate to answer because I see a snarky comment coming but yes I am

Awesome. That's the most desirable URM for hiring. OCS is lowballing you bro

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to interfere with this thread, but can someone extrapolate on the point about firms not hiring people from certain backgrounds? If you are in the top quarter of students at Harvard, do firms honestly still care where you attended undergrad? If so, that's just depressing.

"background" =/= where you went to undergrad. HTH.

Only Wachtell really cares... I had 10 Hs from HLS, did unique research-oriented paid extracurrics during law school and got offers from every V5 except them, as well as offers from every CB I went to for the remaining V10. Unfortunately I was only top of my class at a crappy foreign undergrad.

I don't mean to brag (I'm anonymous), but Wachtell cares where you went to undergrad and if you have ibanking or consulting experience -- typically gotten only from attending a top undergrad. Sucks to say, but that's how it is.

I think W&C is the same, but most of the other DC firms aren't so bad.

That said, if you're top 25-33% URM from Y, you should have a good shot at the W regardless. HS -- not so much.

Same could be said about Cov, WH, and A&P (maybe) in DC -- although everyone at Y loves DC, so you're less special there. W&C is still a long shot, but go for it.

Bump for more thoughts

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:Sorry to interfere with this thread, but can someone extrapolate on the point about firms not hiring people from certain backgrounds? If you are in the top quarter of students at Harvard, do firms honestly still care where you attended undergrad? If so, that's just depressing.

"background" =/= where you went to undergrad. HTH.

Only Wachtell really cares... I had 10 Hs from HLS, did unique research-oriented paid extracurrics during law school and got offers from every V5 except them, as well as offers from every CB I went to for the remaining V10. Unfortunately I was only top of my class at a crappy foreign undergrad.

I don't mean to brag (I'm anonymous), but Wachtell cares where you went to undergrad and if you have ibanking or consulting experience -- typically gotten only from attending a top undergrad. Sucks to say, but that's how it is.

I think W&C is the same, but most of the other DC firms aren't so bad.

Can this anon pm me please.

does URM still count even at firm stage? does that make sense?

It matters if your clients think it matters, or if the people you are trying to recruit think it matters. Also, most top firms are so unbelievably bad with diversity hiring and retention that they want to do at least something about it.

OP - I was referring to race when I said background. For example, if a firm has very few hispanic americans and did not take a hispanic american as a summer associate last summer, I probably wouldn't waste a bid on that firm if I was a hispanic american and there was a different firm that did do so. It may seem that I'm exaggerating, but some URMs strike out at HYS.

I was suggesting that the OCS may know that some firms are less likely to hire a URM from a particular background than others (regardless of grades), but they cannot actually say that in a professional environment.

As a side note, I believe that there is a ranking thing for diversity friendly firms. I would probably include some of those.

Are you referring to Vault's diversity rankings or is there another one? I'll take a look at vault but I kind of take all of their rankings with a grain of sault

Anonymous User wrote:I've been talking to OCS but they've been relatively unhelpful. They keep telling me "I think you'll have a great cycle" but when I ask them what they think my safeties/targets/reaches are, I get the feeling they're dancing around things to avoid hurting my feelings (they keep on noting how selective some of the firms I mention are, but don't suggest any safeties)

It's like, damn, there's nothing you can say that will hurt more than if I overreach and get nothing.

So, what should I be looking at for DC? Are there any Chambers Band 1 or 2 litigation firms that would be targets as URM top 33%?

1. Williams & Connolly, LLP (Washington, DC)
2. Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP (Washington, DC)
3. Covington & Burling (Washington, DC)
4. Kirkland & Ellis LLP (Washington, DC)
5. Jenner & Block LLP (Washington, DC)
7. Hogan Lovells (Washington, DC)
8. WilmerHale (Washington, DC)
9. Sullivan & Cromwell LLP (Washington, D.C. and NY)
10. Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP (New York, NY)

Are all these firms extreme reaches or do I have a good shot at getting at least one of them? How about Cleary or Steptoe? Thanks.

EDIT: I should mention that I have multiple instances of legal work experience on my resume(3-4 distinct places)

I had a friend with similar stats. Top 10-15% at CCN and he only got offers at about 25% of the DC firms you named. However he got offers at 50% of the V10 in NYC.

DC is notoriously difficult even for someone who killed it at school like you did. You should definitely add more NYC firms to that. Even if they are all V10 firms, you got a better chance getting an offer from the most prestigious NYC firms than a middle of the road DC firm.

Anonymous User wrote:Are you referring to Vault's diversity rankings or is there another one? I'll take a look at vault but I kind of take all of their rankings with a grain of sault

Building a Better Legal Profession (http://www.betterlegalprofession.org/) has some really good data on firm diversity.

Bump one more time