2013 Vault Rankings Forum

[Magnificent]

My point was less that no one at YLS goes to firms or that even the future SCOTUS clerks weren't going, it was that prestige of law firms is not exactly their concern. No potential SCOTUS clerk/AUSA/Prof candidate is going to have trouble in their career goals because they went to a V25 instead of Wachtell/W&C/lit boutique etc.

you obviously don't know many YLS folks

firm prestige (at least for 2L summer) matters.....the top students want to work at W&C......that is the universal top firm to get......after Williams its probably DC firms with great appellate practices like Wilmer/Mayer Brown/GDC/Jenner........and following thhat many of the top boutiques like Kellogg/Keker/Susman

[Anonymous User]

The only prestige that matters to me: My $200k-in-debt ass is going to be able to pay off my student loans with the MARKET SHATTERING BONUS and dat relatively-reasonable-COL that comes with being Kirkland-Chicago secure.

The only rankings that matter are the models & bottle (AKA "glorious, glorious $0 net worth) rankings:

Wachtell #1
Boise #2
Bartlit (why is everyone leaving them out?)/Keker/Susman tied for #3
K&E-Chicago #4

Lol this is pretty dumb... If you actually cared about getting rid of debt as fast as possible, all things considered then:

ALL market Texas firms >>> K&E Chicago by a huge margin. Its not even close once taxes/ expenses/ and similar CoL costs are factored in, and this is coming from someone going to NY.

[IAFG]

The only prestige that matters to me: My $200k-in-debt ass is going to be able to pay off my student loans with the MARKET SHATTERING BONUS and dat relatively-reasonable-COL that comes with being Kirkland-Chicago secure.

The only rankings that matter are the models & bottle (AKA "glorious, glorious $0 net worth) rankings:

Wachtell #1
Boise #2
Bartlit (why is everyone leaving them out?)/Keker/Susman tied for #3
K&E-Chicago #4

Lol this is pretty dumb... If you actually cared about getting rid of debt as fast as possible, all things considered then:

ALL market Texas firms >>> K&E Chicago by a huge margin. Its not even close once taxes/ expenses/ and similar CoL costs are factored in, and this is coming from someone going to NY.

Iono about this. Don't you have to own a car in TX?

[Anonymous User]

The only prestige that matters to me: My $200k-in-debt ass is going to be able to pay off my student loans with the MARKET SHATTERING BONUS and dat relatively-reasonable-COL that comes with being Kirkland-Chicago secure.

The only rankings that matter are the models & bottle (AKA "glorious, glorious $0 net worth) rankings:

Wachtell #1
Boise #2
Bartlit (why is everyone leaving them out?)/Keker/Susman tied for #3
K&E-Chicago #4

Lol this is pretty dumb... If you actually cared about getting rid of debt as fast as possible, all things considered then:

ALL market Texas firms >>> K&E Chicago by a huge margin. Its not even close once taxes/ expenses/ and similar CoL costs are factored in, and this is coming from someone going to NY.

Sure, but landing Texas as someone with zero Texas ties can be pretty difficult--even with grades that would get you into top firms. I know firsthand--tried for Texas and struck out. Plus, the culture/style of living difference between Texas and Chicago/NYC is, from what I gather, much greater than the difference between NYC and Chicago.

[Old Gregg]

Plus, you have to live in Texas.

[rayiner]

The only prestige that matters to me: My $200k-in-debt ass is going to be able to pay off my student loans with the MARKET SHATTERING BONUS and dat relatively-reasonable-COL that comes with being Kirkland-Chicago secure.

The only rankings that matter are the models & bottle (AKA "glorious, glorious $0 net worth) rankings:

Wachtell #1
Boise #2
Bartlit (why is everyone leaving them out?)/Keker/Susman tied for #3
K&E-Chicago #4

Lol this is pretty dumb... If you actually cared about getting rid of debt as fast as possible, all things considered then:

ALL market Texas firms >>> K&E Chicago by a huge margin. Its not even close once taxes/ expenses/ and similar CoL costs are factored in, and this is coming from someone going to NY.

It's not so clear-cut. The tax differential isn't that big since Illinois has low state taxes. About $8k/year post-tax at $160k. Housing is a lot cheaper in Dallas or Houston than Chicago, but the need for a car really eats away at a lot of that. Sales tax is somewhat lower (8.25% in Houston versus 10% in Chicago) but not by dramatically much.

On the flip side, Texas firms (besides Susman), have very compressed salary scales. They start at $160k, but at e.g. Baker Botts, I don't think base exceeds $200k even for 7th/8th years. K&E Chicago meanwhile pays on the NY scale, which means 4th years are making $210k in base. Moreover, Texas firms historically did not match NYC bonus back when they were $30k+ for first years. While NYC firms aren't paying near that now, K&E is still paying 2-3x Cravath bonuses. And K&E makes you non-equity partner after 6th year, which comes with (reportedly large) profit-sharing bonuses.

Texas might still come out ahead, I'm not too familiar with the context of living, but you have to be aware that a mid-level at K&E Chicago is probably making $50k/year more than a mid-level at V&E Dallas.

[Anonymous User]

The only prestige that matters to me: My $200k-in-debt ass is going to be able to pay off my student loans with the MARKET SHATTERING BONUS and dat relatively-reasonable-COL that comes with being Kirkland-Chicago secure.

The only rankings that matter are the models & bottle (AKA "glorious, glorious $0 net worth) rankings:

Wachtell #1
Boise #2
Bartlit (why is everyone leaving them out?)/Keker/Susman tied for #3
K&E-Chicago #4

Lol this is pretty dumb... If you actually cared about getting rid of debt as fast as possible, all things considered then:

ALL market Texas firms >>> K&E Chicago by a huge margin. Its not even close once taxes/ expenses/ and similar CoL costs are factored in, and this is coming from someone going to NY.

It's not so clear-cut. The tax differential isn't that big since Illinois has low state taxes. About $8k/year post-tax at $160k. Housing is a lot cheaper in Dallas or Houston than Chicago, but the need for a car really eats away at a lot of that. Sales tax is somewhat lower (8.25% in Houston versus 10% in Chicago) but not by dramatically much.

On the flip side, Texas firms (besides Susman), have very compressed salary scales. They start at $160k, but at e.g. Baker Botts, I don't think base exceeds $200k even for 7th/8th years. K&E Chicago meanwhile pays on the NY scale, which means 4th years are making $210k in base. Moreover, Texas firms historically did not match NYC bonus back when they were $30k+ for first years. While NYC firms aren't paying near that now, K&E is still paying 2-3x Cravath bonuses. And K&E makes you non-equity partner after 6th year, which comes with (reportedly large) profit-sharing bonuses.

Texas might still come out ahead, I'm not too familiar with the context of living, but you have to be aware that a mid-level at K&E Chicago is probably making $50k/year more than a mid-level at V&E Dallas.

TBF, you should have loans paid off before you're into upper-mid-level territory, so the long-term issues (compressed salary scale being the main one) don't matter much.

[Anonymous User]

The only prestige that matters to me: My $200k-in-debt ass is going to be able to pay off my student loans with the MARKET SHATTERING BONUS and dat relatively-reasonable-COL that comes with being Kirkland-Chicago secure.

The only rankings that matter are the models & bottle (AKA "glorious, glorious $0 net worth) rankings:

Wachtell #1
Boise #2
Bartlit (why is everyone leaving them out?)/Keker/Susman tied for #3
K&E-Chicago #4

Lol this is pretty dumb... If you actually cared about getting rid of debt as fast as possible, all things considered then:

ALL market Texas firms >>> K&E Chicago by a huge margin. Its not even close once taxes/ expenses/ and similar CoL costs are factored in, and this is coming from someone going to NY.

It's not so clear-cut. The tax differential isn't that big since Illinois has low state taxes. About $8k/year post-tax at $160k. Housing is a lot cheaper in Dallas or Houston than Chicago, but the need for a car really eats away at a lot of that. Sales tax is somewhat lower (8.25% in Houston versus 10% in Chicago) but not by dramatically much.

On the flip side, Texas firms (besides Susman), have very compressed salary scales. They start at $160k, but at e.g. Baker Botts, I don't think base exceeds $200k even for 7th/8th years. K&E Chicago meanwhile pays on the NY scale, which means 4th years are making $210k in base. Moreover, Texas firms historically did not match NYC bonus back when they were $30k+ for first years. While NYC firms aren't paying near that now, K&E is still paying 2-3x Cravath bonuses. And K&E makes you non-equity partner after 6th year, which comes with (reportedly large) profit-sharing bonuses.

Texas might still come out ahead, I'm not too familiar with the context of living, but you have to be aware that a mid-level at K&E Chicago is probably making $50k/year more than a mid-level at V&E Dallas.

There are several firms that pay on the NYC-scale in Texas, but the trade off is that you're at a satellite office of a NYC/DC/Chicago/Cali firm as opposed to a native firm.

[Anonymous User]

Also, at the high end of hours (i.e., what you'd have to bill at Susman anyways), K&E's bonuses are comparable.

[Anonymous User]

reportedly large) profit-sharing bonuses.

There is no profit sharing for NSPs, but their bonuses are big.

[rayiner]

TBF, you should have loans paid off before you're into upper-mid-level territory, so the long-term issues (compressed salary scale being the main one) don't matter much.

Compressed salary scale hits you probably 3rd/4th year hard enough to wipe out the income tax advantage, though you're right I'm talking more about long-term total compensation.

[Anonymous User]

I honestly don't know why TLS cares about Vault. Prestige doesn't compensate for the fact that you'll be bitched at for only billing 3,000 at K&E.

[Anonymous User]

I honestly don't know why TLS cares about Vault. Prestige doesn't compensate for the fact that you'll be bitched at for only billing 3,000 at K&E.

This is completely false, though I understand if you're being hyperbolic.

[keg411]

I honestly don't know why TLS cares about Vault. Prestige doesn't compensate for the fact that you'll be bitched at for only billing 3,000 at K&E.

FYI, this is not me. When I troll against K&E, I like to mention the no-offers .
Welcome, new anonymous Kirkland-hater. I like you already.

[Anonymous User]

can someone post the vault best firms to work for and the vault prestige rankings for northern and southern california? thanks

[Dignan]

can someone post the vault best firms to work for and the vault prestige rankings for northern and southern california? thanks

Just FYI, the regional rankings for 2013 aren't available yet. Despite what a previous poster suggested, the only 2013 ranking available right now is the overall vault 100. The other rankings are up on the site, but they're all for 2012. Vault, I assume, will release the other 2013 rankings over the next few weeks.

In any case, I think Chambers does a better job of assessing a firm's strength in different regions and practice areas. I'd look there for information on California.

[Anonymous User]

I honestly don't know why TLS cares about Vault. Prestige doesn't compensate for the fact that you'll be bitched at for only billing 3,000 at K&E.

This is completely false, though I understand if you're being hyperbolic.

Same anon. It's a little hyperbolic, but I *do* know a guy who was bitched at at K&E for only billing 2900.

[Anonymous User]

I honestly don't know why TLS cares about Vault. Prestige doesn't compensate for the fact that you'll be bitched at for only billing 3,000 at K&E.

This is completely false, though I understand if you're being hyperbolic.

Same anon. It's a little hyperbolic, but I *do* know a guy who was bitched at at K&E for only billing 2900.

Yeah, that happens from time to time, but reality is that if you do at least 2200 hours of quality work, you'll do fine. 2400 of quality is good enough to be partner-track.

[005618502]

Plus, you have to live in Texas.

This. Seriously. People who grew up here and never leave dont know any better. But people from CA/NY/DC wont love TX most of the time. There isnt anything good about it besides cheap housing....

[WhirledWorld]

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