Public Defender Forum

[purr se]

This report (LinkRemoved) shows which states have state-based systems and which have county-based.

This is really interesting. Thanks for sharing!

[Ded Precedent]

If you are hired in a state that has a state-based system you may be able to transfer out of the rural area, but obviously not if you are hired by a county PD.

This report (LinkRemoved) shows which states have state-based systems and which have county-based.

Know anybody who has done this? How long do you typically work in the rural area before transferring?

[coldshoulder]

What is typically the career of someone who starts out as a PD? Where do you go from there?

[FlanAl]

What is typically the career of someone who starts out as a PD? Where do you go from there?

a lot of people do it for life. if you work at a preftigous pd office you can lateral out to lit boutiques because you'll have way more courtroom experience than other people who've been practicing as long as you.

[eandy]

If you are hired in a state that has a state-based system you may be able to transfer out of the rural area, but obviously not if you are hired by a county PD.

This report (LinkRemoved) shows which states have state-based systems and which have county-based.

Know anybody who has done this? How long do you typically work in the rural area before transferring?

I don't know about PDs specifically, but I know prosecutors typically require you to commit at least three years.

[seatown12]

If you are hired in a state that has a state-based system you may be able to transfer out of the rural area, but obviously not if you are hired by a county PD.

Know anybody who has done this? How long do you typically work in the rural area before transferring?

You probably need to talk to someone from whatever office you're considering, since it most likely depends on the state policy and need/attrition. I met an attorney who did I think two years in a rural Missouri county and then transferred to Saint Louis City.

[molomloch]

mmm, i was thinking more along the lines of "i'm harvey dent" and "i'm doing the right thing" v. defending someone who you might not like and raped two girls or something.

The OP shouldn't worry about the difficulty of PD programs cause she'll fail the initial phone interview saying things like that.

First of all PD offices want you to want to help poor people. Second of all they want and DEMAND that you are 100% willing to defend rapists, etc. 90% of people are guilty (it's called probable cause for a reason), many of very, very reprehensible acts. Defending someone who you might not like who raped two girls IS DOING THE RIGHT THING . . . if you don't agree with this statement you have 0 chance of getting a PD job in anything resembling a legitimate PD office. (Note, more legit generally equals higher paying in the world of indigent defense.)

Secondly, I'm in the top 1/3rd of a T10 school and will be competing with you for all the PD jobs. DA jobs are more desirable huh? Maybe USAO jobs . . . there's in any case a lot of people going to much better schools, with presumably much better GPAs, who actually have a passion for indigent defense fighting tooth and nail for all of the desirable PD offices.

[Void]

mmm, i was thinking more along the lines of "i'm harvey dent" and "i'm doing the right thing" v. defending someone who you might not like and raped two girls or something.

The OP shouldn't worry about the difficulty of PD programs cause she'll fail the initial phone interview saying things like that.

First of all PD offices want you to want to help poor people. Second of all they want and DEMAND that you are 100% willing to defend rapists, etc. 90% of people are guilty (it's called probable cause for a reason), many of very, very reprehensible acts. Defending someone who you might not like who raped two girls IS DOING THE RIGHT THING . . . if you don't agree with this statement you have 0 chance of getting a PD job in anything resembling a legitimate PD office. (Note, more legit generally equals higher paying in the world of indigent defense.)

Secondly, I'm in the top 1/3rd of a T10 school and will be competing with you for all the PD jobs. DA jobs are more desirable huh? Maybe USAO jobs . . . there's in any case a lot of people going to much better schools, with presumably much better GPAs, who actually have a passion for indigent defense fighting tooth and nail for all of the desirable PD offices.

I agree with everything you said except the bolded. WTF is a "more legit" public defender job, and why would it pay more based upon its legitimacy? Smells a lot like warm, steamy bullshit to me.

[molomloch]

Hi Void . . . Hi

First of all I didn't ever refer to anything as a "legit public defender job" ... the word legit in parenthesis simply refers to a "legit public defender's office" as mentioned in the previous sentence.

What is a legit public defender's office? You've proposed it's a steaming pile of shit. Fascinating...

What I was trying to say is that more "legitimate" public defenders offices (i.e. those that actually provide stellar representation for their clients), also tend to pay their attorneys the most. Why? There's a variety of reasons - higher salary, better applicants, etc., etc. Use the steaming pile of shit you call your brains Void and figure it out.

My broader point was that the only PD offices that would even consider an application from someone like the OP would be in a state / county where indigents receive inadequate legal services and where, more often than not, the PD's are also paid less. (No offense meant to the OP - - but yeah, no passion for the career + terrible grades at a lower ranked school = good luck getting a job at a good PD office.)

At a well-funded PD office full of passionate people, low GPA resumes from low ranked schools found in applications expressing a lack of interest in public defense are going to be immediately thrown in the trash in the exact same manner the OP's application was likely thrown wayside at OCI for lack of low grades.

Public Defender's offices, at least the well-functioning, legitimate ones, are not bastions for people who just barely were able to smuggle themselves through one of the more questionable back doors into the legal profession. Peoples lives are at stake here - the last thing the indigent accused needed are incompetent, lazy attorneys who only agreed to represent them due to a lack of more desirable options.

JUST IN CASE THIS ISN'T CLEAR: Look at the payscales of the most elite PD offices . . . (n.b.: their eliteness again stems from the fact that they are seen to be legitimately carrying out their mission of providing indigent defendants with the highest quality legal aid). What you should note is that the best of the best (See: PDS, San Francisco, etc., etc.), also compensate the best. The correlation might not hold true 100% or even 75% of the time, but I think the point I'm making is more than the excrement fermenting in the imagination of Mr. Void.

[Cinderella]

Hi Void . . . Hi

First of all I didn't ever refer to anything as a "legit public defender job" ... the word legit in parenthesis simply refers to a "legit public defender's office" as mentioned in the previous sentence.

What is a legit public defender's office? You've proposed it's a steaming pile of shit. Fascinating...

What I was trying to say is that more "legitimate" public defenders offices (i.e. those that actually provide stellar representation for their clients), also tend to pay their attorneys the most. Why? There's a variety of reasons - higher salary, better applicants, etc., etc. Use the steaming pile of shit you call your brains Void and figure it out.

My broader point was that the only PD offices that would even consider an application from someone like the OP would be in a state / county where indigents receive inadequate legal services and where, more often than not, the PD's are also paid less. (No offense meant to the OP - - but yeah, no passion for the career + terrible grades at a lower ranked school = good luck getting a job at a good PD office.)

At a well-funded PD office full of passionate people, low GPA resumes from low ranked schools found in applications expressing a lack of interest in public defense are going to be immediately thrown in the trash in the exact same manner the OP's application was likely thrown wayside at OCI for lack of low grades.

Public Defender's offices, at least the well-functioning, legitimate ones, are not bastions for people who just barely were able to smuggle themselves through one of the more questionable back doors into the legal profession. Peoples lives are at stake here - the last thing the indigent accused needed are incompetent, lazy attorneys who only agreed to represent them due to a lack of more desirable options.

JUST IN CASE THIS ISN'T CLEAR: Look at the payscales of the most elite PD offices . . . (n.b.: their eliteness again stems from the fact that they are seen to be legitimately carrying out their mission of providing indigent defendants with the highest quality legal aid). What you should note is that the best of the best (See: PDS, San Francisco, etc., etc.), also compensate the best. The correlation might not hold true 100% or even 75% of the time, but I think the point I'm making is more than the excrement fermenting in the imagination of Mr. Void.

You do realize that the elite PD's you're talking about either don't hire out of law school or are more or less beyond your range, even at a T-10, right? Chances are quite high that if you want to be a PD, you'll have to work at a less "legitimate" office first. So, you know, don't shit where you eat and stuff like that.

[seatown12]

You do realize that the elite PD's you're talking about either don't hire out of law school or are more or less beyond your range, even at a T-10, right? Chances are quite high that if you want to be a PD, you'll have to work at a less "legitimate" office first. So, you know, don't shit where you eat and stuff like that.

That's not true at all. San Fran might not hire straight out these days but almost all offices do, including PDS.

[Cinderella]

You do realize that the elite PD's you're talking about either don't hire out of law school or are more or less beyond your range, even at a T-10, right? Chances are quite high that if you want to be a PD, you'll have to work at a less "legitimate" office first. So, you know, don't shit where you eat and stuff like that.

That's not true at all. San Fran might not hire straight out these days but almost all offices do, including PDS.

Yeah, I know PDS does, but they have a markedly strong preference for HYS and NYU grads. Combined with the relative scarcity of openings at elite offices, these jobs are really hard to get even coming from a lower T-10 school.

Not that it's not possible. I just think molomloch is being a bit too condescending given his position.

[molomloch]

Yes, I did realize that. Thanks for the info Cinderella, but I too can read the job info .pdf's. I personally plan to work at what I consider to be a "mid-tier" PD office - low paying (about that of a typical metropolitan DA's office), but known for training new attorneys, being well organized and providing effective representation.

I'm sorry but some states / counties just do not have real PD offices. Then again, some do - even despite not being on the level of San Francisco, etc. I aspire to work in a functional, well-funded, non-elite office and settle in for a long-term career.

I just tried to summarize the reasons why the OP should drop the idea of using PD offices as a fall back. The only offices that accept Lionel Hutz characters are going to be in backwater / economically blighted areas without properly functioning PD offices. (See The Rust Belt and Select Portions of the South East.) These same offices probably are not very ideal employers in terms of quality of life, long-term salary prospects, etc...because they're totally bankrupt! That's really all I was saying - if it sounded otherwise, it's because I was driven mad by this was absolutely enraging thread (enraging both before and after my entrance into the shit storm).

P.S. As long as you're jumping to conclusions, I'd love to know what my "position" is. (I really would - heck I don't even know what it is!) I'm a stranger on a web-forum. For all you know I'm some left-wing politician's child and have a position lined up for me through a family connect.

Last time I ever feed the trolls (see the OP and about half the other people talking utter nonsense on this thread).

[Cinderella]

Your "position" is that you go to a T-10 (I thought you said you were good at reading...). And, since you essentially just admitted that you don't have your hypothetical connections, I guess I wasn't jumping to conclusions.

[Void]

Hi Void . . . Hi

First of all I didn't ever refer to anything as a "legit public defender job" ... the word legit in parenthesis simply refers to a "legit public defender's office" as mentioned in the previous sentence.

What is a legit public defender's office? You've proposed it's a steaming pile of shit. Fascinating...

What I was trying to say is that more "legitimate" public defenders offices (i.e. those that actually provide stellar representation for their clients), also tend to pay their attorneys the most. Why? There's a variety of reasons - higher salary, better applicants, etc., etc. Use the steaming pile of shit you call your brains Void and figure it out.

My broader point was that the only PD offices that would even consider an application from someone like the OP would be in a state / county where indigents receive inadequate legal services and where, more often than not, the PD's are also paid less. (No offense meant to the OP - - but yeah, no passion for the career + terrible grades at a lower ranked school = good luck getting a job at a good PD office.)

At a well-funded PD office full of passionate people, low GPA resumes from low ranked schools found in applications expressing a lack of interest in public defense are going to be immediately thrown in the trash in the exact same manner the OP's application was likely thrown wayside at OCI for lack of low grades.

Public Defender's offices, at least the well-functioning, legitimate ones, are not bastions for people who just barely were able to smuggle themselves through one of the more questionable back doors into the legal profession. Peoples lives are at stake here - the last thing the indigent accused needed are incompetent, lazy attorneys who only agreed to represent them due to a lack of more desirable options.

JUST IN CASE THIS ISN'T CLEAR: Look at the payscales of the most elite PD offices . . . (n.b.: their eliteness again stems from the fact that they are seen to be legitimately carrying out their mission of providing indigent defendants with the highest quality legal aid). What you should note is that the best of the best (See: PDS, San Francisco, etc., etc.), also compensate the best. The correlation might not hold true 100% or even 75% of the time, but I think the point I'm making is more than the excrement fermenting in the imagination of Mr. Void.

Hi! You're wrong about almost all of this. You're a 1L, right? LOL.

[molomloch]

You're a 2L? LOL

Do educate me !

Edit: Yes, sir. I am aware there's like no jobs for would-be PD's, and the chances of getting hired after graduation are slim to none. This doesn't really contradict anything I said - I aspire to be a PD after graduation . . . I never said how long after graduation

[bartleby]

well...i have a crim history. i've sorta turned it around. my best grades are in crim classes. i worked 2 years in the inner city to help gangster kids. at least that's how i would spin it. was thinking about taking a crim clinic this fall. i think i can say i could spin it so that i'd be "more passionate" than most. but it is good to see that there some gunners who are gunning for PD. can't beat the system

[seatown12]

well...i have a crim history. i've sorta turned it around. my best grades are in crim classes. i worked 2 years in the inner city to help gangster kids. at least that's how i would spin it. was thinking about taking a crim clinic this fall. i think i can say i could spin it so that i'd be "more passionate" than most. but it is good to see that there some gunners who are gunning for PD. can't beat the system

Let me break this down for you as simple as I can:

DA and PD jobs are equally competitive; neither rely heavily on grades in hiring; both look for passion for and commitment to the work.

With that in mind, since you believe "prosecution is where everyone wants to be" because it "is obviously a much more desirable job" because you "assumed (from tv and stuff)" that "P.D. was really bottom of the barrel" and you think "more along the lines of 'i'm harvey dent' and 'i'm doing the right thing' v. defending someone who you might not like and raped two girls or something," you should just try to get a DA job.

[rayiner]

mmm, i was thinking more along the lines of "i'm harvey dent" and "i'm doing the right thing" v. defending someone who you might not like and raped two girls or something.

A lot of people in law school hate prosecutors and want to defend people railroaded by our broken criminal justice system. I'd say among my friends PD is the more desired job. Also it's extremely competitive to get, though the focus isn't on grades.

[rayiner]

Hi Void . . . Hi

First of all I didn't ever refer to anything as a "legit public defender job" ... the word legit in parenthesis simply refers to a "legit public defender's office" as mentioned in the previous sentence.

What is a legit public defender's office? You've proposed it's a steaming pile of shit. Fascinating...

What I was trying to say is that more "legitimate" public defenders offices (i.e. those that actually provide stellar representation for their clients), also tend to pay their attorneys the most. Why? There's a variety of reasons - higher salary, better applicants, etc., etc. Use the steaming pile of shit you call your brains Void and figure it out.

My broader point was that the only PD offices that would even consider an application from someone like the OP would be in a state / county where indigents receive inadequate legal services and where, more often than not, the PD's are also paid less. (No offense meant to the OP - - but yeah, no passion for the career + terrible grades at a lower ranked school = good luck getting a job at a good PD office.)

At a well-funded PD office full of passionate people, low GPA resumes from low ranked schools found in applications expressing a lack of interest in public defense are going to be immediately thrown in the trash in the exact same manner the OP's application was likely thrown wayside at OCI for lack of low grades.

Public Defender's offices, at least the well-functioning, legitimate ones, are not bastions for people who just barely were able to smuggle themselves through one of the more questionable back doors into the legal profession. Peoples lives are at stake here - the last thing the indigent accused needed are incompetent, lazy attorneys who only agreed to represent them due to a lack of more desirable options.

JUST IN CASE THIS ISN'T CLEAR: Look at the payscales of the most elite PD offices . . . (n.b.: their eliteness again stems from the fact that they are seen to be legitimately carrying out their mission of providing indigent defendants with the highest quality legal aid). What you should note is that the best of the best (See: PDS, San Francisco, etc., etc.), also compensate the best. The correlation might not hold true 100% or even 75% of the time, but I think the point I'm making is more than the excrement fermenting in the imagination of Mr. Void.

Hi! You're wrong about almost all of this. You're a 1L, right? LOL.

Eh. This person is right about a lot of this stuff. My friend just got a pretty cushy PD position (3L) and she really had the whole package: good school, good grades, all the trial extracirriculars. From what she was saying about interviewing, PD's offices in places you'd like to live are really serious about getting true believers. Like the interviews will jump on you for prosecution-related internships.

[Anonymous User]

In my own experience, good grades and advanced degrees seem to *hurt* unless directly related to PD. The same things that make generic firm partners nod appreciatively seem to make PD recruiters suspicious of one's commitment. I'm getting hoarse giving my "Road to Damascus" story to PDs only to be shot down. I've found the difficulty of getting a PD job to be vastly greater than getting Big Law (caveat: at Y/H/S).
And to echo an earlier commenter, among my circle of friends, no one admits to wanting to be a DA or AUSA, but plenty want PD gigs.

[leobowski]

Hi Void . . . Hi

First of all I didn't ever refer to anything as a "legit public defender job" ... the word legit in parenthesis simply refers to a "legit public defender's office" as mentioned in the previous sentence.

What is a legit public defender's office? You've proposed it's a steaming pile of shit. Fascinating...

What I was trying to say is that more "legitimate" public defenders offices (i.e. those that actually provide stellar representation for their clients), also tend to pay their attorneys the most. Why? There's a variety of reasons - higher salary, better applicants, etc., etc. Use the steaming pile of shit you call your brains Void and figure it out.

My broader point was that the only PD offices that would even consider an application from someone like the OP would be in a state / county where indigents receive inadequate legal services and where, more often than not, the PD's are also paid less. (No offense meant to the OP - - but yeah, no passion for the career + terrible grades at a lower ranked school = good luck getting a job at a good PD office.)

At a well-funded PD office full of passionate people, low GPA resumes from low ranked schools found in applications expressing a lack of interest in public defense are going to be immediately thrown in the trash in the exact same manner the OP's application was likely thrown wayside at OCI for lack of low grades.

Public Defender's offices, at least the well-functioning, legitimate ones, are not bastions for people who just barely were able to smuggle themselves through one of the more questionable back doors into the legal profession. Peoples lives are at stake here - the last thing the indigent accused needed are incompetent, lazy attorneys who only agreed to represent them due to a lack of more desirable options.

JUST IN CASE THIS ISN'T CLEAR: Look at the payscales of the most elite PD offices . . . (n.b.: their eliteness again stems from the fact that they are seen to be legitimately carrying out their mission of providing indigent defendants with the highest quality legal aid). What you should note is that the best of the best (See: PDS, San Francisco, etc., etc.), also compensate the best. The correlation might not hold true 100% or even 75% of the time, but I think the point I'm making is more than the excrement fermenting in the imagination of Mr. Void.

Hi! You're wrong about almost all of this. You're a 1L, right? LOL.

Yeah molomloch really has no idea what he is talking about.

[molomloch]

Hi Void . . . Hi

First of all I didn't ever refer to anything as a "legit public defender job" ... the word legit in parenthesis simply refers to a "legit public defender's office" as mentioned in the previous sentence.

What is a legit public defender's office? You've proposed it's a steaming pile of shit. Fascinating...

What I was trying to say is that more "legitimate" public defenders offices (i.e. those that actually provide stellar representation for their clients), also tend to pay their attorneys the most. Why? There's a variety of reasons - higher salary, better applicants, etc., etc. Use the steaming pile of shit you call your brains Void and figure it out.

My broader point was that the only PD offices that would even consider an application from someone like the OP would be in a state / county where indigents receive inadequate legal services and where, more often than not, the PD's are also paid less. (No offense meant to the OP - - but yeah, no passion for the career + terrible grades at a lower ranked school = good luck getting a job at a good PD office.)

At a well-funded PD office full of passionate people, low GPA resumes from low ranked schools found in applications expressing a lack of interest in public defense are going to be immediately thrown in the trash in the exact same manner the OP's application was likely thrown wayside at OCI for lack of low grades.

Public Defender's offices, at least the well-functioning, legitimate ones, are not bastions for people who just barely were able to smuggle themselves through one of the more questionable back doors into the legal profession. Peoples lives are at stake here - the last thing the indigent accused needed are incompetent, lazy attorneys who only agreed to represent them due to a lack of more desirable options.

JUST IN CASE THIS ISN'T CLEAR: Look at the payscales of the most elite PD offices . . . (n.b.: their eliteness again stems from the fact that they are seen to be legitimately carrying out their mission of providing indigent defendants with the highest quality legal aid). What you should note is that the best of the best (See: PDS, San Francisco, etc., etc.), also compensate the best. The correlation might not hold true 100% or even 75% of the time, but I think the point I'm making is more than the excrement fermenting in the imagination of Mr. Void.

Hi! You're wrong about almost all of this. You're a 1L, right? LOL.

Yeah molomloch really has no idea what he is talking about.

Care to back your rudeness up with some ideas? It's interesting that so far the people who have claimed to "disagree with me" have all been from less than stellar law schools. Why is a forum called top law schools flooded with a bunch of TTToilet trolls? Northwestern kid agrees with what I'm saying - T3-Lebowski / Mr. Uconn don't. Interesting pattern!

[dreakol]

Hi Void . . . Hi

First of all I didn't ever refer to anything as a "legit public defender job" ... the word legit in parenthesis simply refers to a "legit public defender's office" as mentioned in the previous sentence.

What is a legit public defender's office? You've proposed it's a steaming pile of shit. Fascinating...

What I was trying to say is that more "legitimate" public defenders offices (i.e. those that actually provide stellar representation for their clients), also tend to pay their attorneys the most. Why? There's a variety of reasons - higher salary, better applicants, etc., etc. Use the steaming pile of shit you call your brains Void and figure it out.

My broader point was that the only PD offices that would even consider an application from someone like the OP would be in a state / county where indigents receive inadequate legal services and where, more often than not, the PD's are also paid less. (No offense meant to the OP - - but yeah, no passion for the career + terrible grades at a lower ranked school = good luck getting a job at a good PD office.)

At a well-funded PD office full of passionate people, low GPA resumes from low ranked schools found in applications expressing a lack of interest in public defense are going to be immediately thrown in the trash in the exact same manner the OP's application was likely thrown wayside at OCI for lack of low grades.

Public Defender's offices, at least the well-functioning, legitimate ones, are not bastions for people who just barely were able to smuggle themselves through one of the more questionable back doors into the legal profession. Peoples lives are at stake here - the last thing the indigent accused needed are incompetent, lazy attorneys who only agreed to represent them due to a lack of more desirable options.

JUST IN CASE THIS ISN'T CLEAR: Look at the payscales of the most elite PD offices . . . (n.b.: their eliteness again stems from the fact that they are seen to be legitimately carrying out their mission of providing indigent defendants with the highest quality legal aid). What you should note is that the best of the best (See: PDS, San Francisco, etc., etc.), also compensate the best. The correlation might not hold true 100% or even 75% of the time, but I think the point I'm making is more than the excrement fermenting in the imagination of Mr. Void.

Hi! You're wrong about almost all of this. You're a 1L, right? LOL.

Yeah molomloch really has no idea what he is talking about.

Care to back your rudeness up with some ideas? It's interesting that so far the people who have claimed to "disagree with me" have all been from less than stellar law schools. Why is a forum called top law schools flooded with a bunch of TTToilet trolls? Northwestern kid agrees with what I'm saying - T3-Lebowski / Mr. Uconn don't. Interesting pattern!

oh what a detective

[leobowski]

..