3L no job, is OK? Forum

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:50 am

Have a buddy who just graduated and took the Bar, but without a job lined up. Median at T50, no LR, no MC. I'm a long-time TLS lurker and always trying to convince her to be more proactive but she seems not to be worried---says will "send applications for DC fed gov jobs" when passes the bar. What's gonna happen here? Happy ending? No law job for a year? Ever? What can people in this position do?

dood · Post by **dood** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:53 am

Anonymous User wrote:Have a buddy who just graduated and took the Bar, but without a job lined up. Median at T50, no LR, no MC. I'm a long-time TLS lurker and always trying to convince her to be more proactive but she seems not to be worried---says will "send applications for DC fed gov jobs" when passes the bar. What's gonna happen here? Happy ending? No law job for a year? Ever? What can people in this position do?

lol, she prolly has a trust fund and no loans. otherwise, enjoy the breadline.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:59 am

Anonymous User wrote:Have a buddy who just graduated and took the Bar, but without a job lined up. Median at T50, no LR, no MC. I'm a long-time TLS lurker and always trying to convince her to be more proactive but she seems not to be worried---says will "send applications for DC fed gov jobs" when passes the bar. What's gonna happen here? Happy ending? No law job for a year? Ever? What can people in this position do?

I have a number of friends who are 3Ls and grads ranging from T14-TTTT in the same position and saying the same thing. I'm a 3L in a JD/LLM program without anything for next summer or after graduation and I'm terrified to the point of waking up screaming at night, yet my friends seem fully confident that a dream job will land in their laps once they pass the bar or "graduate and have time to look."

Aberzombie1892 · Post by **Aberzombie1892** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:17 am

While your friend should be more proactiv (ha) in the job search, things will ultimately be fine. Most graduates will find either (1) a legal job of some kind, (2) a non-legal job that they wouldn't have been able to get without the help of their JD or (3) start their own firm.

However, it is impossible to examine the value of each of the above potential outcomes for a particular candidate without having access to all of the following information: law school and corresponding rank/gpa/extracurricular activities, undergraduate school and corresponding rank/gpa.extracurricular activities, personal wealth/connections, family wealth/connections, pre/during-law school experience, personal attractiveness, publications, etc. Your friend may be in a great position or your friend may be delusional. None of us can say for sure.

Nicholasnickynic · Post by **Nicholasnickynic** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:33 am

[quote="Aberzombie1892"]While your friend should be more proactiv (ha) in the job search, things will ultimately be fine. Most graduates will find either (1) a legal job of some kind, (2) a non-legal job that they wouldn't have been able to get without the help of their JD or (3) start their own firm.

However, it is impossible to examine the value of each of the above potential outcomes for a particular candidate without having access to all of the following information: law school and corresponding rank/gpa/extracurricular activities, undergraduate school and corresponding rank/gpa.extracurricular activities, personal wealth/connections, family wealth/connections, pre/during-law school experience, personal attractiveness, publications, etc. Your friend may be in a great position or your friend ~~may~~be IS delusional. ~~None of us can say~~For sure.[/quote]

Most graduates will find either
(1) a legal job of some kind,
45k graduates, 30k jd required jobs, many of those are shit. If you are assuming he might get temporary doc review, then yeah.

(2) a non-legal job that they wouldn't have been able to get without the help of their JD
--> DOES NOT EXIST. NAME 1.

or
(3) start their own firm.
Incredibly hard to do.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:35 am

Anonymous User wrote:Have a buddy who just graduated and took the Bar, but without a job lined up. Median at T50, no LR, no MC. I'm a long-time TLS lurker and always trying to convince her to be more proactive but she seems not to be worried---says will "send applications for DC fed gov jobs" when passes the bar. What's gonna happen here? Happy ending? No law job for a year? Ever? What can people in this position do?

--ImageRemoved--

DoubleChecks · Post by **DoubleChecks** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:47 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:While your friend should be more proactiv (ha) in the job search, things will ultimately be fine. Most graduates will find either (1) a legal job of some kind, (2) a non-legal job that they wouldn't have been able to get without the help of their JD or (3) start their own firm.

However, it is impossible to examine the value of each of the above potential outcomes for a particular candidate without having access to all of the following information: law school and corresponding rank/gpa/extracurricular activities, undergraduate school and corresponding rank/gpa.extracurricular activities, personal wealth/connections, family wealth/connections, pre/during-law school experience, personal attractiveness, publications, etc. Your friend may be in a great position or your friend may be delusional. None of us can say for sure.

lolwut. this is an incredibly misleading post. the whole issue with a lot of law schools today is that they often (over all law schools, avg. around 40-50% I believe that one study showed) do not result in permanent, legal jobs. i think NALP even reported 25% of legal jobs for grads were temporary (i.e. doc review). so yes, as the poster below you clarified, if you are counting those jobs, then yeah maybe.

i often hear some ppl talk about these jobs that you could not have gotten without a JD...do these even exist? and if they do, how rare are they? if it is an insignificant handful (which I imagine it to be), it isn't really useful advice. if, on the other hand, you mean having a JD will somehow help you in a very indirect way to gain an edge over competition in a non-legal field...this is both 1) incredibly hard to measure/value and 2) kinda bullshit because law school doesnt actually teach you anything...

starting one's own firm is also incredibly difficult to do. starting a business has a much greater chance of failure than success. if you were looking at it from a monetary perspective, it might be better to just take the $150k and bet it all on red at the roulette table lol.

Nicholasnickynic · Post by **Nicholasnickynic** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:49 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:While your friend should be more proactiv (ha) in the job search, things will ultimately be fine. Most graduates will find either (1) a legal job of some kind, (2) a non-legal job that they wouldn't have been able to get without the help of their JD or (3) start their own firm.

However, it is impossible to examine the value of each of the above potential outcomes for a particular candidate without having access to all of the following information: law school and corresponding rank/gpa/extracurricular activities, undergraduate school and corresponding rank/gpa.extracurricular activities, personal wealth/connections, family wealth/connections, pre/during-law school experience, personal attractiveness, publications, etc. Your friend may be in a great position or your friend may be delusional. None of us can say for sure.
lolwut. this is an incredibly misleading post. the whole issue with a lot of law schools today is that they often (over all law schools, avg. around 40-50% I believe that one study showed) do not result in permanent, legal jobs. i think NALP even reported 25% of legal jobs for grads were temporary (i.e. doc review). so yes, as the poster below you clarified, if you are counting those jobs, then yeah maybe.

i often hear some ppl talk about these jobs that you could not have gotten without a JD...do these even exist? and if they do, how rare are they? if it is an insignificant handful (which I imagine it to be), it isn't really useful advice. if, on the other hand, you mean having a JD will somehow help you in a very indirect way to gain an edge over competition in a non-legal field...this is both 1) incredibly hard to measure/value and 2) kinda bullshit because law school doesnt actually teach you anything...

starting one's own firm is also incredibly difficult to do. starting a business has a much greater chance of failure than success. if you were looking at it from a monetary perspective, it might be better to just take the $150k and bet it all on red at the roulette table lol.

Everything completely credited. Except the roulette table. I mean c'mon- bet on black

Aberzombie1892 · Post by **Aberzombie1892** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:04 pm

While I am well of aware of the state of the legal job market, it's impossible to come to conclusions concerning a particular student without looking at the circumstances surrounding that student.

Do non-legal jobs exist that a JD can help you attain? Yes, of course.

I've listed a couple of them in other threads, and posters in this forum seem to shoot them down by claiming they are difficult to get - which may be true - but most of them are no more difficult to obtain than an associate position at any law firm, as many (most?) career track jobs outside of those that require associates degrees or medical degrees are difficult to obtain in this economy.

bandenjamin · Post by **bandenjamin** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:10 pm

Nicholasnickynic wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:While your friend should be more proactiv (ha) in the job search, things will ultimately be fine. Most graduates will find either (1) a legal job of some kind, (2) a non-legal job that they wouldn't have been able to get without the help of their JD or (3) start their own firm.

However, it is impossible to examine the value of each of the above potential outcomes for a particular candidate without having access to all of the following information: law school and corresponding rank/gpa/extracurricular activities, undergraduate school and corresponding rank/gpa.extracurricular activities, personal wealth/connections, family wealth/connections, pre/during-law school experience, personal attractiveness, publications, etc. Your friend may be in a great position or your friend may be delusional. None of us can say for sure.
lolwut. this is an incredibly misleading post. the whole issue with a lot of law schools today is that they often (over all law schools, avg. around 40-50% I believe that one study showed) do not result in permanent, legal jobs. i think NALP even reported 25% of legal jobs for grads were temporary (i.e. doc review). so yes, as the poster below you clarified, if you are counting those jobs, then yeah maybe.

i often hear some ppl talk about these jobs that you could not have gotten without a JD...do these even exist? and if they do, how rare are they? if it is an insignificant handful (which I imagine it to be), it isn't really useful advice. if, on the other hand, you mean having a JD will somehow help you in a very indirect way to gain an edge over competition in a non-legal field...this is both 1) incredibly hard to measure/value and 2) kinda bullshit because law school doesnt actually teach you anything...

starting one's own firm is also incredibly difficult to do. starting a business has a much greater chance of failure than success. if you were looking at it from a monetary perspective, it might be better to just take the $150k and bet it all on red at the roulette table lol.
Everything completely credited. Except the roulette table. I mean c'mon- bet on black

Anyone know the FASFA code for MGM Grand? If I can get that loan for the tables, I'm on the next flight!!

sebastian0622 · Post by **sebastian0622** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:12 pm

There are non-legal federal gov't jobs that list a J.D. as a qualification that can replace the work experience requirement. Quite a few of them, actually. I had one before law school. The problem is that HR and the local managers typically prefer the work experience, so the J.D. candidate is likely to lose out to a person with a four-year degree (or no degree at all!) who has the experience.

MrAnon · Post by **MrAnon** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:18 pm

sebastian0622 wrote:There are non-legal federal gov't jobs that list a J.D. as a qualification that can replace the work experience requirement. Quite a few of them, actually. I had one before law school. The problem is that HR and the local managers typically prefer the work experience, so the J.D. candidate is likely to lose out to a person with a four-year degree (or no degree at all!) who has the experience.

This is accurate. Virtually every employer will take someone who has experience in the field. It also begs the question, why did this person go to law school if he didnt want to be a lawyer. I would question their judgment and decision making skill.

As far as 3L no job, ok?....this is just kicking the can down the road. I imagine once you are at peace with the notion that there is no job for you in the near future it allows you to relax and enjoy 3L year a little more. You may as well because what comes next will be pretty life jarring.

keg411 · Post by **keg411** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:47 pm

Most people I know who graduated between 2009-2011 without a job ended up with something eventually (J.D.-required, not doc review; though not BigLaw either). Only one went to a TTT(T), the rest went to low T1/T2 schools. From the SSS of "people I know", the '09 grads had it the worst by a mile. The 2011 was a Tax LLM (NYU/Georgetown/UF) who got something about a month ago. (The only other 2011 is, I think, waiting for bar results; but she might/might not have something for after that... I don't know).

ETA: This is a small sample size of "people I know" and in no way endorses lawl skool as a good idea for 0L's. Just that 3L's with no job shouldn't start bridge jumping.

Post by **romothesavior** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:53 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:While I am well of aware of the state of the legal job market, it's impossible to come to conclusions concerning a particular student without looking at the circumstances surrounding that student.

And yet you did???

Aberzombie1892 wrote: things will ultimately be fine.

Things may be fine, but this individual student likely has a huge uphill battle to getting a full-time, JD-required job. I'd guess that for a median T50 student with no moot court or journal (or most importantly, no job leads), odds are probably pointing to temp work or no legal job. OP, your friend needs to get their ass in gear because they don't sound like they have a lot going for them right now.

reasonable_man · Post by **reasonable_man** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:56 pm

This thread is gonna be awesome. I can feel it.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:04 pm

OP here clarifying re: a few questions--

Said friend definitely is not a trust fund kid and does have substantial loans.

This isn't my only 4L (I'm a 2L) friend at my T50 who seems to just be oblivious to the situation in the legal market as it's commonly described on this site and even in the mainstream media now. I just don't understand how these kids can be so relaxed right now. Will the reality hit a few months into the post bar search?

I'm seriously confused because I would be scrambling knowing what I *think* I know and many have echoed ITT, but so many 4L's seem to just think it's a matter of time before that dream job comes up---they don't even seem to be worried about applying. Anybody know people with this attitude---do they end up OK? Is it not as bad as we think it is? I feel like it's not my place to issue a reality check--after all, if my/our suspicions are accurate, it's already too late to salvage.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:11 pm

A good friend of mine graduated from a low T2 in 2011, just passed the bar, and has no job. He has over $150k in debt. I'll ask him how the search is going, and he'll say something like, "There is this one job with X that sounds really cool, so I think I'm going to apply." I finally asked him a few weeks ago if he considered sending out resumes to basically EVERY surrounding county attorney's office and completely blanketing smaller firms with resumes as well. He apathetically remarked that he had considered that and "would probably be sending some more apps out soon." He isn't a trust fund baby, but I think his parents give him some money for living expenses, and he maintains a remarkably cheap/crappy lifestyle.

Some people just don't get it. I'm not sure what else there is to say. I guess if I had to say one thing, it would be that more people should get real jobs for a period of time at SOME POINT prior to law school. Get a feel for what it takes to succeed in the real world instead of going straight through undergrad and law school and then trying to figure out how this whole job market thing really works.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:13 pm

Anonymous User wrote:A good friend of mine graduated from a low T2 in 2011, just passed the bar, and has no job. He has over $150k in debt. I'll ask him how the search is going, and he'll say something like, "There is this one job with X that sounds really cool, so I think I'm going to apply." I finally asked him a few weeks ago if he considered sending out resumes to basically EVERY surrounding county attorney's office and completely blanketing smaller firms with resumes as well. He apathetically remarked that he had considered that and "would probably be sending some more apps out soon." He isn't a trust fund baby, but I think his parents give him some money for living expenses, and he maintains a remarkably cheap/crappy lifestyle.

Some people just don't get it. I'm not sure what else there is to say. I guess if I had to say one thing, it would be that more people should get real jobs for a period of time at SOME POINT prior to law school. Get a feel for what it takes to succeed in the real world instead of going straight through undergrad and law school and then trying to figure out how this whole job market thing really works.

Yes, I hear the "this job sounds really awesome, I'm going to apply" all the time! I've heard of openings at small shops around town and even was asked by my summer employer to recommend a graduating 3L, and a friend of mine didn't even want to pass me their resume because "it didn't sound like what [they] wanted to do." -- It was a decently paying commercial lit. shop. I think they looked down on it b/c it was less than 5 lawyers at the firm. I'm just dumbfounded.

reasonable_man · Post by **reasonable_man** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A good friend of mine graduated from a low T2 in 2011, just passed the bar, and has no job. He has over $150k in debt. I'll ask him how the search is going, and he'll say something like, "There is this one job with X that sounds really cool, so I think I'm going to apply." I finally asked him a few weeks ago if he considered sending out resumes to basically EVERY surrounding county attorney's office and completely blanketing smaller firms with resumes as well. He apathetically remarked that he had considered that and "would probably be sending some more apps out soon." He isn't a trust fund baby, but I think his parents give him some money for living expenses, and he maintains a remarkably cheap/crappy lifestyle.

Some people just don't get it. I'm not sure what else there is to say. I guess if I had to say one thing, it would be that more people should get real jobs for a period of time at SOME POINT prior to law school. Get a feel for what it takes to succeed in the real world instead of going straight through undergrad and law school and then trying to figure out how this whole job market thing really works.
Yes, I hear the "this job sounds really awesome, I'm going to apply" all the time! I've heard of openings at small shops around town and even was asked by my summer employer to recommend a graduating 3L, and a friend of mine didn't even want to pass me their resume because "it didn't sound like what [they] wanted to do." -- It was a decently paying commercial lit. shop. I think they looked down on it b/c it was less than 5 lawyers at the firm. I'm just dumbfounded.

That's ok... In 5 weeks he will be down at the wall street occupation screaming about unjust loans and a lack of jobs.

Nicholasnickynic · Post by **Nicholasnickynic** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:21 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A good friend of mine graduated from a low T2 in 2011, just passed the bar, and has no job. He has over $150k in debt. I'll ask him how the search is going, and he'll say something like, "There is this one job with X that sounds really cool, so I think I'm going to apply." I finally asked him a few weeks ago if he considered sending out resumes to basically EVERY surrounding county attorney's office and completely blanketing smaller firms with resumes as well. He apathetically remarked that he had considered that and "would probably be sending some more apps out soon." He isn't a trust fund baby, but I think his parents give him some money for living expenses, and he maintains a remarkably cheap/crappy lifestyle.

Some people just don't get it. I'm not sure what else there is to say. I guess if I had to say one thing, it would be that more people should get real jobs for a period of time at SOME POINT prior to law school. Get a feel for what it takes to succeed in the real world instead of going straight through undergrad and law school and then trying to figure out how this whole job market thing really works.
Yes, I hear the "this job sounds really awesome, I'm going to apply" all the time! I've heard of openings at small shops around town and even was asked by my summer employer to recommend a graduating 3L, and a friend of mine didn't even want to pass me their resume because "it didn't sound like what [they] wanted to do." -- It was a decently paying commercial lit. shop. I think they looked down on it b/c it was less than 5 lawyers at the firm. I'm just dumbfounded.
That's ok... In 5 weeks he will be down at the wall street occupation screaming about unjust loans and a lack of jobs.

+1.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:23 pm

reasonable_man wrote:This thread is gonna be awesome. I can feel it.

Eagerly waiting...

tlstlstls73 · Post by **tlstlstls73** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:26 pm

Recipe for awesome ITT:

A - Post stories about ppl out of touch with the legal job market.

B - What is appropriate response if they are a friend / are not.

Nicholasnickynic · Post by **Nicholasnickynic** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:A good friend of mine graduated from a low T2 in 2011, just passed the bar, and has no job. He has over $150k in debt. I'll ask him how the search is going, and he'll say something like, "There is this one job with X that sounds really cool, so I think I'm going to apply." I finally asked him a few weeks ago if he considered sending out resumes to basically EVERY surrounding county attorney's office and completely blanketing smaller firms with resumes as well. He apathetically remarked that he had considered that and "would probably be sending some more apps out soon." He isn't a trust fund baby, but I think his parents give him some money for living expenses, and he maintains a remarkably cheap/crappy lifestyle.

Some people just don't get it. I'm not sure what else there is to say. I guess if I had to say one thing, it would be that more people should get real jobs for a period of time at SOME POINT prior to law school. Get a feel for what it takes to succeed in the real world instead of going straight through undergrad and law school and then trying to figure out how this whole job market thing really works.
Yes, I hear the "this job sounds really awesome, I'm going to apply" all the time! I've heard of openings at small shops around town and even was asked by my summer employer to recommend a graduating 3L, and a friend of mine didn't even want to pass me their resume because "it didn't sound like what [they] wanted to do." -- It was a decently paying commercial lit. shop. I think they looked down on it b/c it was less than 5 lawyers at the firm. I'm just dumbfounded.

W.T.F.

Assuming this person does not have biglaw lined up, what are they planning on doing. Did you mention to them they'd get experience as well as $$, because its a JOB! While I believe you, this sort of thing really is incredible.

The same thing goes on at my school.

For instance:
I'm 2L @ t1, top quarter, worked for state doj during 1L summer, working at DA's office during 2L school year, have a few interviews lined up for DA's office for 2L summer (I want to be an ADA). And I'm constantly worried about getting a job upon graduation. I spend lots of time worrying that I'm not doing enough/resume not good enough/current internship not with a prestegious (sp plz) enough office.

I know 2Ls towards the bottom quarter of the class who did not work a legal job during 1L summer, are not working one now, and are involved in no extra curriculars. And they are certainly not doing OCI. And they don't care, unconcerned as can be.

I just want to be like: BE CONCERNED DAMNIT!

Oh well, better chances for those of us trying our hardest/having constant panic attacks.

Nicholasnickynic · Post by **Nicholasnickynic** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:37 pm

Fun Story:

I was talking to the externship/clinic direct at my school, and she was asking me if I felt like I could handle a full load and still intern for the DA's office (I'm not getting credit for it).

The reason she wanted to know was because there was a 3L who had the opportunity to work at a small law firm as intern, but she didn't want to do it with a full schedule- for fear her grades might drop.

I wanted to find the 3L and be like: SO WHAT IF YOUR GRADES DROP??
What good is getting good grades if you are not graduated upon employment? All the employers that are grade obsessed generally hire during OCI.

And this 3L was interest in private firm work- so no gov't.

I just want to find her and be like: as an unemployed 3L, YOUR GRADES DO NOT MATTER MORE THAN MAKING A CONNECTION AND GETTING LEGAL EXPERIENCE!

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Its like people don't understand.

I feel like she must think that if she keeps up her good grades, a medium sized firm will hire her for her good grades? I just... *sigh.*

Noval · Post by **Noval** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:33 pm

MrAnon wrote:
sebastian0622 wrote:There are non-legal federal gov't jobs that list a J.D. as a qualification that can replace the work experience requirement. Quite a few of them, actually. I had one before law school. The problem is that HR and the local managers typically prefer the work experience, so the J.D. candidate is likely to lose out to a person with a four-year degree (or no degree at all!) who has the experience.
This is accurate. Virtually every employer will take someone who has experience in the field. It also begs the question, why did this person go to law school if he didnt want to be a lawyer. I would question their judgment and decision making skill.

As far as 3L no job, ok?....this is just kicking the can down the road. I imagine once you are at peace with the notion that there is no job for you in the near future it allows you to relax and enjoy 3L year a little more. You may as well because what comes next will be pretty life jarring.

There's Lawyers working as Bankers and Consultants, but they often had a shit ton of experience in Law, contacts and a really good story in order to make the switch.
It's possible indeed, but if you're aiming these careers and think law school will be your way to it, then you're making a mistake.

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