Top Law Schools

Hi TLS.

There seems to be a lot of talk on here about T14 schools OCI and what-not, and I wanted to give a different perspective on what the job market is like for non-top 14rs.

My story:

A year ago, had to decide between a T10 school in a city I did not want to be, and a T30 NY school (duh) on basically a full scholarship. Took the T30 for family reasons plus my aversion to debt. Worked pretty hard, finished in the top 20% plus secondary journal. OCI came: 7 interviews, 1 callback, no offers. Honestly, did not feel as if I had a real shot at biglaw, and I have numerous classmates in the same position.

Any questions?

Anonymous User wrote:Hi TLS.

There seems to be a lot of talk on here about T14 schools OCI and what-not, and I wanted to give a different perspective on what the job market is like for non-top 14rs.

My story:

A year ago, had to decide between a T10 school in a city I did not want to be, and a T30 NY school (duh) on basically a full scholarship. Took the T30 for family reasons plus my aversion to debt. Worked pretty hard, finished in the top 20% plus secondary journal. OCI came: 7 interviews, 1 callback, no offers. Honestly, did not feel as if I had a real shot at biglaw, and I have numerous classmates in the same position.

Any questions?

Did you mass-mail the shit out of every firm big, medium, and small? Did you call up alums to get their advice and see if they could push along your resume? Did you look beyond NY to secondary markets?

You said you finished in the Top 20%. What was your standing during OCI? Seems like top 20% at Fordham striking out would be part of the few exceptions, and not the rule.

ETA: in all honesty, how well do you think you interviewed?

What percentage of students usually get big law at your school and did you have an WE?

PS: I am sorry to hear about your OCI experience.

Did you mass-mail the shit out of every firm big, medium, and small? Did you call up alums to get their advice and see if they could push along your resume? Did you look beyond NY to secondary markets?[/quote]

Mass-mailed about 80 firms with tailored cover letters. About 40 rejections and 40 silence. Spoke to many alumni and actually do have some informational interviews set up for end of the month so not done yet. Yes, looked at NJ and Connecticut.

Well, you will probably end up in the same/better situation than a lot of students at T14. Yeah, you missed out at starting at BigLaw, but so has about 50% of T14 students depending on what T14 school you're at. Many of the T14 students are paying sticker, have no BigLaw jobs (or any jobs), and will end up with $175k+ in debt.

MrPapagiorgio wrote:You said you finished in the Top 20%. What was your standing during OCI? Seems like top 20% at Fordham striking out would be part of the few exceptions, and not the rule.

ETA: in all honesty, how well do you think you interviewed?

Fordham's cut-off is TOP 25% so I was in that percentile but well into it so I would estimate about Top 20%.

I cannot say for sure how I interviewed. Went through all the mock interviews and got good feedback and actually contacted some screening interviewers who claimed that the issue was GPA and not the interview. That may have been because they did not want to give a reasons. Who knows.

Anonymous User wrote:Well, you will probably end up in the same/better situation than a lot of students at T14. Yeah, you missed out at starting at BigLaw, but so has about 50% of T14 students depending on what T14 school you're at. Many of the T14 students are paying sticker, have no BigLaw jobs (or any jobs), and will end up with $175k+ in debt.

This is correct. However, I speak for many of my classmates who are in the same boat employment-wise but have taken out the money to pay for school. Striking out at OCI is a terrible feeling and I can see it having an extreme effect on someone who is going to be 200,000 dollars in debt come graduation. And the stories are direct from classmates and not just something I overheard.

shoeshine wrote:What percentage of students usually get big law at your school and did you have an WE?

PS: I am sorry to hear about your OCI experience.

As is well-known, the percentage of students at Fordham that get biglaw varies from year to year. From 44 percent or so several years ago, to about 15 percent more recently. This year, it seems like law review people are doing extraordinarily well, while below top 15% or so without law review dont have the edge that Fordham portrays itself as giving you.

Had about 2 years of solid, law-related work experience.

Moral of the story is not to go to Fordham for $200k+? I'm not really sure what we're being cautioned against.

Helmholtz wrote:Moral of the story is not to go to Fordham for $200k+? I'm not really sure what we're being cautioned against.

Just trying to provide some perspective on what its like outside the T14, as most of the OCI related threads seem to give a lot of info about people from HYS getting multiple V5 offers, which doesn't exactly pertain to the world at large.

With no debt, who cares about big law?

I'd wager <10% of people who go to law school aspire to be big law lawyers, and that may be being generous.

Are you really one of those people?

Anonymous User wrote:

Helmholtz wrote:Moral of the story is not to go to Fordham for $200k+? I'm not really sure what we're being cautioned against.

Just trying to provide some perspective on what its like outside the T14, as most of the OCI related threads seem to give a lot of info about people from HYS getting multiple V5 offers, which doesn't exactly pertain to the world at large.

You must be new here.

I think a lot of ppl around TLS acknowledge how hard it is to get big law even at top schools.

See: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0&t=166321, for an example (and also for lulz)

Objection wrote:With no debt, who cares about big law?

I'd wager <10% of people who go to law school aspire to be big law lawyers, and that may be being generous.

Are you really one of those people?

I think so.

Objection wrote:With no debt, who cares about big law?

I'd wager <10% of people who go to law school aspire to be big law lawyers, and that may be being generous.

Are you really one of those people?

Who cares what they aspired to be when they went to law school. Once they get to law school and either discover what biglaw is and how much it pays or realize how much debt they are going to be in >80% then aspire to be big law lawyers. If you think less than 10% of students at any top 50 school are aspiring to be in biglaw you're a wrong.

Anonymous User wrote:Hi TLS.

There seems to be a lot of talk on here about T14 schools OCI and what-not, and I wanted to give a different perspective on what the job market is like for non-top 14rs.

My story:

A year ago, had to decide between a T10 school in a city I did not want to be, and a T30 NY school (duh) on basically a full scholarship. Took the T30 for family reasons plus my aversion to debt. Worked pretty hard, finished in the top 20% plus secondary journal. OCI came: 7 interviews, 1 callback, no offers. Honestly, did not feel as if I had a real shot at biglaw, and I have numerous classmates in the same position.

Any questions?

Were your 7 screeners about the average number for someone of your rank, or do you think your bidding may have shortchanged you any? Someone around top 20% with a secondary at BC would probably have a few more than that. I know someone who meets that criteria at BC that got 10 interviews in NYC through our NYC off-campus program with BU, before counting anything in Boston for on-campus.

There have been a number of threads that discuss taking the money at a lower ranked school vs full freight at a higher ranked school. This is the first thread, that I am aware of, where the poster is not happy with the decision.

IBMTal

Look, you KNEW the risks you took when you made that choice, and as others have pointed out there are lots of people at T10s who are striking out at OCI too.

I go to a lower ranked school than you and I know people with 10+ call backs and multiple offers from top firms.

Anonymous User wrote:Hi TLS.

There seems to be a lot of talk on here about T14 schools OCI and what-not, and I wanted to give a different perspective on what the job market is like for non-top 14rs.

My story:

A year ago, had to decide between a T10 school in a city I did not want to be, and a T30 NY school (duh) on basically a full scholarship. Took the T30 for family reasons plus my aversion to debt. Worked pretty hard, finished in the top 20% plus secondary journal. OCI came: 7 interviews, 1 callback, no offers. Honestly, did not feel as if I had a real shot at biglaw, and I have numerous classmates in the same position.

Any questions?

I don't see why this is a cautionary tale. This should be entitled, "What You Expect to Happen if You Don't Make Law Review at Fordham"

I turned down various scholarship offers at "better" ranked school to go to Fordham, because I knew if I did well it'd give me the best show at big law in NY out of those schools (no t14). BUT, I knew that I needed to make law review to do that. That's no secret. Two years ago 15% of students got jobs out of OCI. Since about 10% of the class is on law review, it doesn't take a statistician to figure out where most of those students are coming from. Not the boldest move, but life is a gamble, I did well, made law review, and now have a v10 SA job lined up.

As for the OP, you need to work on your interview skills/reconsider your bid strategy for 3L OCI. I have four friends in the same exact boat as you, some on pretty low ranked journals, ALL who received big law offers. Not the best firms around, but V75-V100. I have one friend about top 25%, secondary journal who got 15 screeners and 8 cbs. You need to figure out what went wrong for you before providing others with your "cautionary tale."

DR GUANO SAYS, HA HA

...THE MOOSE!

A cautionary tale is a perfect title for this thread. The past 2 years, this board has been filled with the "Fordham crusaders" who defend Fordham to the death implying that Top 20% is a LOCK for biglaw. OP is letting them/people considering Fordham at full boat know that's not true.

Bronx Bum wrote:A cautionary tale is a perfect title for this thread. The past 2 years, this board has been filled with the "Fordham crusaders" who defend Fordham to the death implying that Top 20% is a LOCK for biglaw. OP is letting them/people considering Fordham at full boat know that's not true.

It is no guarded secret that 15% of students at Fordham the last two years got jobs out of OCI. If people really think Top 20 is a LOCK for big law then they simply aren't doing their homework. To make a $160K investment in something without doing your diligence is simply idiotic.

In the OPs case, however, I know plenty of people in the same boat who fared very well. If you're a bad interviewer to begin with, it doesn't matter where you fall in the class - your options will be limited.

But as I stated before, there is a bidding strategy to Fordham. Four friends with what appear to be identical #s to the OPs, all with big law offers after pulling in between 10-15 screeners. The way they did it? Smart bidding strategies. Not as prestigious firms but firms that had big Fordham connections/historically select from Fordham/big summer classes, etc. You can't sit in the top 20%, non-lr, and expect to be competitive at V50 firms.

Cautionary Tale - be realistic.

Bronx Bum wrote:A cautionary tale is a perfect title for this thread. The past 2 years, this board has been filled with the "Fordham crusaders" who defend Fordham to the death implying that Top 20% is a LOCK for biglaw. OP is letting them/people considering Fordham at full boat know that's not true.

Fordham is a great school if you are top 10%, on law review. Fordham is a good school if you are top 25%, secondary journal. After that, well, like most schools, Fordham ain't getting you much.

How about we just call it "A tale"?