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Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:19 pm
by Veyron
Self explanatory - is midlaw defined by pay, size?
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:21 pm
by MrPapagiorgio
It has always seemed to me that the TLS stance on Midlaw is that it is mostly a myth.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:22 pm
by Veyron
MrPapagiorgio wrote:It has always seemed to me that the TLS stance on Midlaw is that it is mostly a myth.
Maybe in NYC.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:25 pm
by Aqualibrium
A combination of pay/size/location.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:26 pm
by thesealocust
The defining characteristic of biglaw is high stakes and high values invoked, which almost always means corporate - though some white collar, investment, and T&E work sneaks in for ultra high networth individuals. Various things like large size and 'prestige' all trickle down from the kernel of high stakes / high value legal work.
"mid law" is thus whatever exists a step down. Corporate law for smaller corporations with lower stakes, private law for lower networth individuals, etc. There's no bright line as to where it exists.
Not much else this thread can do.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:27 pm
by MrPapagiorgio
Veyron wrote:MrPapagiorgio wrote:It has always seemed to me that the TLS stance on Midlaw is that it is mostly a myth.
Maybe in NYC.
If so, and primary markets are devoid of Midlaw, perhaps Midlaw is heartland Biglaw? Or is that obnoxious pro-coast trolling?
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:29 pm
by BarbellDreams
Between 20-50 attorneys paying at minimum 70k starting.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:30 pm
by ndirish2010
I think that is what people think of when they mean midlaw- regional biglaw. Firms in secondary/tertiary markets aren't as big and don't have as high profile clients, but many pay "market" for that location.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:32 pm
by JusticeHarlan
It's a totality of the circumstances thing: size, pay, practice area, city, etc all have a role.
Also, it's not a binary distinction.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:32 pm
by Glock
ndirish2010 wrote:I think that is what people think of when they mean midlaw- regional biglaw. Firms in secondary/tertiary markets aren't as big and don't have as high profile clients, but many pay "market" for that location.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:35 pm
by merc280
Glock wrote:ndirish2010 wrote:I think that is what people think of when they mean midlaw- regional biglaw. Firms in secondary/tertiary markets aren't as big and don't have as high profile clients, but many pay "market" for that location.
Is that like Vinson and Elkins in Texas?
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:36 pm
by Veyron
How about a firm that pays 6figs in a 2ndary market (but not market) and has an SA program. Midlaw for sure?
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:37 pm
by thesealocust
Veyron wrote:How about a firm that pays 6figs in a 2ndary market (but not market) and has an SA program. Midlaw for sure?
It doesn't matter. The term only has meaning in broad strokes. Most people would consider just about any entry level / SA arrangement with the promise of a 6-figure biglaw though.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:44 pm
by dood
Veyron wrote:How about a firm that pays 6figs in a 2ndary market (but not market) and has an SA program. Midlaw for sure?
yea i think so. plenty of mid law gigs even in secondary-ish markets like DC or LA that pay $100-$145.
examples:
Watt, Tieder, Hoffar & Fitzgerald, L.L.P, / 59 lawyers / $140K
nossaman llp / 139 lawyers / $130K
BEST BEST & KRIEGER LLP / 200 lawyers / $100K
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:48 pm
by Veyron
thesealocust wrote:Veyron wrote:How about a firm that pays 6figs in a 2ndary market (but not market) and has an SA program. Midlaw for sure?
It doesn't matter. The term only has meaning in broad strokes. Most people would consider just about any entry level / SA arrangement with the promise of a 6-figure biglaw though.
Even if the firm is, itself, small?
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:54 pm
by thesealocust
Veyron wrote:thesealocust wrote:Veyron wrote:How about a firm that pays 6figs in a 2ndary market (but not market) and has an SA program. Midlaw for sure?
It doesn't matter. The term only has meaning in broad strokes. Most people would consider just about any entry level / SA arrangement with the promise of a 6-figure biglaw though.
Even if the firm is, itself, small?
It doesn't matter.
In the alternative:
There is no answer.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:56 pm
by keg411
I generally think "mid-law" is basically regional biglaw. Start at usually between 70-110k (depending on the market), firms either hire through SA's or post-clerkship (mostly state clerkships, though they probably pull some D.Ct. people as well who prefer to stay in market). Size doesn't really matter; some firms are bigger than others.
This does NOT include branch offices of V100's.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:29 pm
by Grizz
It's whatever you want it to be, seriously bro
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:48 pm
by Younger Abstention
If it pays close to six figures, but I haven't ever heard of it, then it's midlaw.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:35 pm
by Oban
MrPapagiorgio wrote:It has always seemed to me that the TLS stance on Midlaw is that it is mostly a myth.
There defenitely firms with about 40-60 attourneys and pay 80-100K, several in Chicago and a lot in NYC/LA etc.
The thing is they still make you bill 1800+ hours. Many only hire 1-2 SA or don't have programs.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:36 pm
by Richie Tenenbaum
merc280 wrote:Glock wrote:ndirish2010 wrote:I think that is what people think of when they mean midlaw- regional biglaw. Firms in secondary/tertiary markets aren't as big and don't have as high profile clients, but many pay "market" for that location.
Is that like Vinson and Elkins in Texas?
Defining bigtex (which pays market) as midlaw is weird. I would think the firms that pay 120-140k would fit better into the midlaw description. But it seems like the more I learn about firms, the less I know about what midlaw means--so I won't pretend to know.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:38 pm
by Anonymous User
Hmmmm. I think that there is a divergence between the way TLSers define mid law and the way practicing attorneys define it. First of all, I've never met a single practicing attorney who refers to "big law," the preferred nomenclature is a "New York Firm," regardless of the firm's actual location (be it DC, LA, Chicago...). The distinction between a New York Firm and a Mid Level firm has more to do with an individuals chance at making partner, the work environment, and the billable hours expectation. This has nothing to do with the prestige or affluence of the clientele.
In Nashville-health-care law mecca-Bass, Berry and Sims would be considered a New York (Big Law) firm while Waller Lansden Dortch and Davis would be considered Mid Law. This has more to do with firm atmosphere and billable hours expectation than the firms reputations or clientele. For instance, Waller is arguably the better firm (HCA as client, among others), though they are not a "New York firm."
It is similar in Louisville:
Frost Brown Todd, Stites and Harbison, and Wyatt, Tarrant and Combs would be considered Mid Law, and Greenebaum Doll & McDonald would be considered a NY Firm....but Stites or FBT are clearly the better firms.
Edit: to clarify, there are firms that are on the nlj250 or v100 that are midlaw, and firms that are not on these lists which are NY Firms (big law). It's about culture, billable hours, and the associate to partner ratio.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:44 pm
by gradesmatter
It's those firms in New Jersey that pay around 100k that you settle on after getting dinged by the big firms in NYC.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:11 pm
by ndirish2010
In Indianapolis: Baker & Daniels, Barnes & Thornberg,
Frost Brown Todd, etc...pay market. B&D is the only NLJ250 firm based in Indiana though.
Re: Define Midlaw
Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:38 pm
by de5igual
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:merc280 wrote:Glock wrote:ndirish2010 wrote:I think that is what people think of when they mean midlaw- regional biglaw. Firms in secondary/tertiary markets aren't as big and don't have as high profile clients, but many pay "market" for that location.
Is that like Vinson and Elkins in Texas?
Defining bigtex (which pays market) as midlaw is weird. I would think the firms that pay 120-140k would fit better into the midlaw description. But it seems like the more I learn about firms, the less I know about what midlaw means--so I won't pretend to know.
i would consider v&e, h&b, akin gump, f&j, bracewell giuliani as BigTex
midlaw would be more like thompson&knight, jackson walker, gardere -- which all do pay close to market