Asians in Big Law Forum

[de5igual]

those aren't the sites, i just mentioned google because i know plenty of academic studies have been done on this subject. but to answer your question, no, i don't think asians are disproportionately awkward because of studies i've read, but based on first hand experience. i've noticed, as have most people, that there are more socially awkward asians as a percentage than other groups. a lot of this has to do with the cultural upbringing. secondly, how is this making a "broad and unsubstantiated" stereotype? op made a claim about there being a disproportionate number of asians in firms. i offered this as a plausible explanation.

[Anonymous User]

asians are disproportionately socially awkward

This will drive tons of TLSers up the wall, but I think most law students would agree.

I would agree. Many of the summers in my SA class have actually talked (and laughed) quite a bit about this. We have 3.5 awkward asians in my SA class and they routinely bail on the SA+Associate casual group lunches because they are so awkward and finicky about lunch cuisine that they would rather eat their Trader Joe's ethnic items alone in their offices than chat with colleagues over lunch. I have nothing against them--they seem extremely bright and competent--but they are just, awkward.

[Anonymous User]

those aren't the sites, i just mentioned google because i know plenty of academic studies have been done on this subject. but to answer your question, no, i don't think asians are disproportionately awkward because of studies i've read, but based on first hand experience. i've noticed, as have most people, that there are more socially awkward asians as a percentage than other groups. a lot of this has to do with the cultural upbringing. secondly, how is this making a "broad and unsubstantiated" stereotype? op made a claim about there being a disproportionate number of asians in firms. i offered this as a plausible explanation.

I didn't know there are studies on being "awkward". And if you base this on first hand experience, I think a lot of people can disagree base on their first hand experience as well.

Anyways, OP's claim isn't that valid either. Asians are actually overrepresented in law schools and law firms (at least on associate level) --- at least in more diverse cities.

http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecare ... wyers.html

"In New York, Asians represent over 50 percent of all minority lawyers, reports The New York City Bar in its latest diversity study. Nationally, they make up about half of all minority associates, reports NALP in its January bulletin. Moreover, even during the economic turbulence, when minority lawyer figures declined from 19.67 percent in 2009 to 19.53 percent in 2010, Asian Americans actually saw their numbers increase, from 9.28 percent to 9.39 percent."

The bigger problem is at partner level. I think a more plausible explanation is that law firms, as a service industry with emphasis on networking, will tend to be more conservative in terms of accepting new members into the establishment. This seems to be true for not just Asians, but other minorities as well. Are they all socially awkward people? I highly doubt that.

For you, I guess what you have seen could be true. Perhaps the Asian students around you are bad at talking and working with other people. But I do detect a sense of prejudgment on your part about Asian-Americans. You know, they could be just awkward to you if you already made up your mind that they are awkward. Human minds unfortunately work like that from time to time.

[Master Tofu]

those aren't the sites, i just mentioned google because i know plenty of academic studies have been done on this subject. but to answer your question, no, i don't think asians are disproportionately awkward because of studies i've read, but based on first hand experience. i've noticed, as have most people, that there are more socially awkward asians as a percentage than other groups. a lot of this has to do with the cultural upbringing. secondly, how is this making a "broad and unsubstantiated" stereotype? op made a claim about there being a disproportionate number of asians in firms. i offered this as a plausible explanation.

So, I took your suggestion and ran the same search on google scholar and these are the top 5...ok, I will stop. Snark aside, I don't deny there are cultural issues with foreign born asians. These issues stem from them adjusting to a new country. I don't call this awkwardness -it is just friction between people with different cultures and practices. Tell me why asians born and raised here are awkward. How many of them do you know? Have you met awkward non-asians before?

With regard to your last point, you can re-read your post. It was conclusory, and not hypothetical. Explain why it is not broad. Or explain how it is substantiated.

[Master Tofu]

asians are disproportionately socially awkward

This will drive tons of TLSers up the wall, but I think most law students would agree.

I would agree. Many of the summers in my SA class have actually talked (and laughed) quite a bit about this. We have 3.5 awkward asians in my SA class and they routinely bail on the SA+Associate casual group lunches because they are so awkward and finicky about lunch cuisine that they would rather eat their Trader Joe's ethnic items alone in their offices than chat with colleagues over lunch. I have nothing against them--they seem extremely bright and competent--but they are just, awkward.

Refusing to eat lunch with you is not a sign of awkwardness.

[glitched]

this will not end well...


also... http://dearsociallyawkwardroommates.tumblr.com/ <-- this guy might just be the biggest d-bag in the entire world.

[Anonymous User]

Repeatedly refusing to eat a free (and often elegant and delicious) lunch with a combination of mid-levels, juniors, and other SAs from your firm is indeed awkward. Especially when one of your goals is (or should be) to show people you are a likable person who people won't mind spending extended periods of time with (and years down the road, could schmooze (with others besides asians) and bring in business for the firm).

Sorry if this is a sensitive subject for you, but it's true. That was me who posted anony a couple of minutes ago.

[rayiner]

I don't know what is the point of this thread. It was predicated on the idea that asians have a disadvantage in legal hiring. People put up stats showing asians are overrepresented by a factor of 2 among NLJ lawyers (10% of lawyers while only 5% of the population is asian).

/thread

[Anonymous User]

Repeatedly refusing to eat a free (and often elegant and delicious) lunch with a combination of mid-levels, juniors, and other SAs from your firm is indeed awkward. Especially when one of your goals is (or should be) to show people you are a likable person who people won't mind spending extended periods of time with (and years down the road, could schmooze (with others besides asians) and bring in business for the firm).

Sorry if this is a sensitive subject for you, but it's true. That was me who posted anony a couple of minutes ago.

I thought awkward just means you literally can't talk to people without making the other side feel uncomfortable. I didn't realize keeping to oneself means someone is automatically awkward. They are adults. They can choose who they want to eat lunch with. I am sure if they made it to your law firm as SAs, they are more than enough sociable comparing to a lot of other law students. I actually find the SAs who would "laugh" about this quite immature. I doubt mocking your coworkers behind their backs is a good way to make meaningful connections with others. I don't know what is going on at your law firm, just my impression (since we are all generalizing here anyways).

[Master Tofu]

Repeatedly refusing to eat a free (and often elegant and delicious) lunch with a combination of mid-levels, juniors, and other SAs from your firm is indeed awkward. Especially when one of your goals is (or should be) to show people you are a likable person who people won't mind spending extended periods of time with (and years down the road, could schmooze (with others besides asians) and bring in business for the firm).

Sorry if this is a sensitive subject for you, but it's true. That was me who posted anony a couple of minutes ago.

Introversion is not awkwardness. It may not be optimal for their careers but it doesn't mean they are awkward.

I am sensitive to this to the extent that people make broad generalizations from a few data points, and to the extent that people paint as negative traits in asians what would be neutral traits in non-asians. The non-novel point that I will end with is this: people who look different are always easier to classify and ostracize. Just be mindful of that.

[Anonymous User]

I am sensitive to this to the extent that people make broad generalizations from a few data points, and to the extent that people paint as negative traits in asians what would be neutral traits in non-asians. The non-novel point that I will end with is this: people who look different are always easier to classify and ostracize. Just be mindful of that.

That is true in some Asian countries as well. In Japan, foreigners are stereotyped as rude, uncultured and arrogant. It all comes down to prejudging people based on their looks and apply the stereotypes.

And I noticed that the member above speculated his/her Asian coworkers refused to eat lunch with others because they are "finicky about lunch cuisine that they would rather eat their Trader Joe's ethnic items". Unless this member actually checks his/her coworkers' trash cans every day after work, I have no idea how he/she comes to such conclusions without applying some sort of prejudice.

[de5igual]

http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-am ... ndex5.html

for the record, i'm asian. so it's not about ostracizing someone different than me; just a casual observation about those that look like me and how they have difficulty fitting in. i don't disagree that the awkwardness is usually more prevalent among FOBs and first generation immigrants, although many second-generation ones (usually those raised around major Asian epicenters–LA, NYC, SF, etc) also have some of these social limitations. again, i'm stressing that it's the culture, and that they're only socially awkward in a more american, non-asian setting.

[Anonymous User]

http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-am ... ndex5.html

for the record, i'm asian. so it's not about ostracizing someone different than me; just a casual observation about those that look like me and how they have difficulty fitting in. i don't disagree that the awkwardness is usually more prevalent among FOBs and first generation immigrants, although many second-generation ones (usually those raised around major Asian epicenters–LA, NYC, SF, etc) also have some of these social limitations. again, i'm stressing that it's the culture, and that they're only socially awkward in a more american, non-asian setting.

To be honest, I have lived in a lot of countries. Asian-Americans as a minority by far have the most apologetic people among them. It is always something wrong with themselves. Bigots say Asians are ugly ---- "are we too short?" Bigots think Asians are hard to communicate ---- "do we speak horrible english?" Even praises like Asians do well academically --- "are we too nerdy?" The inferiority complex is just astonishing.

The truth is Asians do really well as a minority in America. They are already overrepresented in professional occupations, including lawyers. They are not the ones that cause most of the problems (poverty, crimes, etc). Why do people still pick on them? and why do they pick on themselves?

[rayiner]

http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-am ... ndex5.html

for the record, i'm asian. so it's not about ostracizing someone different than me; just a casual observation about those that look like me and how they have difficulty fitting in. i don't disagree that the awkwardness is usually more prevalent among FOBs and first generation immigrants, although many second-generation ones (usually those raised around major Asian epicenters–LA, NYC, SF, etc) also have some of these social limitations. again, i'm stressing that it's the culture, and that they're only socially awkward in a more american, non-asian setting.

My favorite quote from that whole article:

Yes, it is about picking up women. Yes, it is about picking up white women. Yes, it is about attracting those women whose hair is the color of the midday sun and eyes are the color of the ocean, and it is about having sex with them. He is not going to apologize for the images of blonde women plastered all over his website. This is what he prefers, what he stands for, and what he is selling...

[Grizz]

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[JSC4]

In my opinion, I don't think its because some kind of discrimination by the partners but rather the actual number of asians interested in law, as well as their ability to express themselves and well, become "likeable".

It is like if you went to India for example, and began looking for a career. Most likely you would seek a position that would not require an extensive understanding of the Indian language - like how lawyers here have an extensive understanding of the english language- and would resort to more technical jobs.

As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

[JSC4]

Oh and as for the lack of asian partners at major firms, I really don't know so if someone would like to shed some light on that...

[071816]

OP should rename this the "Let's talk out of our asses as we stereotype asians" thread.

[sundance95]

As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?

[JSC4]

As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?

No, but they are obviously under the heavy influence of there older relatives. When a lot of these families moved over to America from wherever they came from, they aren't going to completely leave everyone and everything behind. More often then not, you see grandparents or uncles or anybody coming along that are still under the influence of their respective cultures

[sundance95]

As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?

No, but they are obviously under the heavy influence of there older relatives. When a lot of these families moved over to America from wherever they came from, they aren't going to completely leave everyone and everything behind. More often then not, you see grandparents or uncles or anybody coming along that are still under the influence of their respective cultures

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Why don't you sit the next play out...stop talking for a while.

[bruinwang]

The former dean of Yale Law and current State Department Legal Adviser is a second-generation Korean American. Pres. Obama's nominee to be the next US Ambassador to China -- who is also the current Commerce Secretary and a former Governor of Washington -- is a third-generation Chinese American.

They must not have gotten the memo about how socially inept and unsuccessful Asian lawyers are supposed to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Hongju_Koh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Locke

[theturkeyisfat]

As time goes on, and we see more of the American born asians rather than the fresh off the boat type of asians, then we will see more asian attorneys, and we will see more social asians.

Serious question JSC - were you dropped on your head when you were an infant? Do you seriously think most Asians living in the US are recent arrivals or first generation?

No, but they are obviously under the heavy influence of there older relatives. When a lot of these families moved over to America from wherever they came from, they aren't going to completely leave everyone and everything behind. More often then not, you see grandparents or uncles or anybody coming along that are still under the influence of their respective cultures

JSC - Despite their supposed lack of an "extensive understanding" of the English language, I'm pretty sure most Asian lawyers know the difference between "there" and "their."

I don't usually call out grammatical mistakes, but thus dude was asking for it.

[ant5do]

I don't usually call out grammatical mistakes, but thus dude was asking for it.

might need a quick edit

[Trequartista]

Are South Asians included in the discussion in this thread?