Where do contract / temp attorneys come from? Forum

[Heartford]

Lol, that's ironic. The people "owed" to in Churchill's speech were meant to be praised. The speech was also made to incite hope. Not the case here.

Oh, f'real? I thought that speech was about student loans and the great mortgage crash/subsequent recession/subsequent legal employment meltdown of 1940.

[Verity]

Lol, that's ironic. The people "owed" to in Churchill's speech were meant to be praised. The speech was also made to incite hope. Not the case here.

Oh, f'real? I thought that speech was about student loans and the great mortgage crash/subsequent recession/subsequent legal employment meltdown of 1940.

YAY!

[crossarmant]

Never before in our history have so many been in debt to so few, in exchange for so little.

Most aphoristic line on TLS.

Really? Because I remember a time in U.S. history when people were literally owned... or housed in company barracks and practically used as indentured labor for companies during the Industrial Revolution... Or thrown in prison for owing money... Maybe not so much the most aphoristic statement, but definitely one of the most hyperbolistic.

[Verity]

Never before in our history have so many been in debt to so few, in exchange for so little.

Most aphoristic line on TLS.

Really? Because I remember a time in U.S. history when people were literally owned... or housed in company barracks and practically used as indentured labor for companies during the Industrial Revolution... Or thrown in prison for owing money... Maybe not so much the most aphoristic statement, but definitely one of the most hyperbolistic.

In Europe things were generally tough for the average person during the IR, but in America living standards actually improved. Also, you're exaggerating: the percentage of people who actually went to debtor's prison was always very small in the U.S.

In any case, areyouinsane is talking about the value of the stuff you take debts for, which is historically at a low point, IMO. And people never borrowed in history like they borrow today. It's more widespread than ever.

[SchopenhauerFTW]

"Neither a borrower nor a lender be." -Shakespeare

[Bronte]

Too bad you can't pay off your student loans with credit cards/other loans and then declare bankrupcy on the discharable debt.

+1

I mean, if your credit's good enough to scoop up like 20 credit cards with ~$5000 limits, why not? Easier than paying $100,000. Absurd society of debt and priorities we live in.

Don't know if you guys are actually advocating this, but there would be a high probability that if you did this your bankruptcy petition would be dismissed and some chance you would be liable for criminal fraud.

[merc280]

Another non legal option might be to go into consulting. I know of a few companies in TX and FL that high people with either MBA's or JD's for management consulting jobs that usually start at $60K

[Renzo]

Too bad you can't pay off your student loans with credit cards/other loans and then declare bankrupcy on the discharable debt.

+1

I mean, if your credit's good enough to scoop up like 20 credit cards with ~$5000 limits, why not? Easier than paying $100,000. Absurd society of debt and priorities we live in.

Don't know if you guys are actually advocating this, but there would be a high probability that if you did this your bankruptcy petition would be dismissed and some chance you would be liable for criminal fraud.

If you put 100% of your normal purchases on credit, and funneled all your cash income to the loans, then made minimum payments for a while before defaulting, you could totally make it work.

[robotclubmember]

Another non legal option might be to go into consulting. I know of a few companies in TX and FL that high people with either MBA's or JD's for management consulting jobs that usually start at $60K

mgt consulting is almost as much of a prestige whore industry as law. they do hire jds they're looking for very specific kinds of jds, this isn't a realistic option for the vast majority of jds

[Bronte]

If you put 100% of your normal purchases on credit, and funneled all your cash income to the loans, then made minimum payments for a while before defaulting, you could totally make it work.

It could work, but it's unethical and probably illegal. Further, it could also not work, and you could end up with a criminal conviction at worst or with your bankruptcy petition dismissed, your lawyers fees down the drain, and your credit even further pwnt than it already is. There's a DOJ component called the U.S. Trustee's Office that reviews all consumer chapter 7 cases for abuse and fraud.

[Renzo]

If you put 100% of your normal purchases on credit, and funneled all your cash income to the loans, then made minimum payments for a while before defaulting, you could totally make it work.

It could work, but it's unethical and probably illegal. Further, it could also not work, and you could end up with a criminal conviction at worst or with your bankruptcy petition dismissed, your lawyers fees down the drain, and your credit even further pwnt than it already is. There's a DOJ component called the U.S. Trustee's Office that reviews all consumer chapter 7 cases for abuse and fraud.

I'd argue that it's no more unethical than taking $100K+ in tuition for a TTT legal education. However, I can't/won't speak to legal. But it seems to me that at worst, it would be treated as a preferential payment and clawed back into the estate, leaving you only slightly worse off than if you hadn't tried.

[Emma.]

Wow. Awesome writing skills, areyouinsane.

You remind me of a legal version of David Sedaris.

Also, stop arguing with him people. Let him continue to do his thing.

[Bronte]

If you put 100% of your normal purchases on credit, and funneled all your cash income to the loans, then made minimum payments for a while before defaulting, you could totally make it work.

It could work, but it's unethical and probably illegal. Further, it could also not work, and you could end up with a criminal conviction at worst or with your bankruptcy petition dismissed, your lawyers fees down the drain, and your credit even further pwnt than it already is. There's a DOJ component called the U.S. Trustee's Office that reviews all consumer chapter 7 cases for abuse and fraud.

I'd argue that it's no more unethical than taking $100K+ in tuition for a TTT legal education. However, I can't/won't speak to legal. But it seems to me that at worst, it would be treated as a preferential payment and clawed back into the estate, leaving you only slightly worse off than if you hadn't tried.

I think it is more unethical than simply taking out the loans because now you're trying not to pay them back. Presumably most people take them out at least intending to pay them back. As to the legal point you didn't make ( ), it's better characterized as an attempt to game the bankruptcy system than a preferential transfer. Admittedly, you could definitely get away with it, but, beyond the practical and legal hurtles, I think it's wrong.

[ToTransferOrNot]

If you put 100% of your normal purchases on credit, and funneled all your cash income to the loans, then made minimum payments for a while before defaulting, you could totally make it work.

It could work, but it's unethical and probably illegal. Further, it could also not work, and you could end up with a criminal conviction at worst or with your bankruptcy petition dismissed, your lawyers fees down the drain, and your credit even further pwnt than it already is. There's a DOJ component called the U.S. Trustee's Office that reviews all consumer chapter 7 cases for abuse and fraud.

I'd argue that it's no more unethical than taking $100K+ in tuition for a TTT legal education. However, I can't/won't speak to legal. But it seems to me that at worst, it would be treated as a preferential payment and clawed back into the estate, leaving you only slightly worse off than if you hadn't tried.

I think it is more unethical than simply taking out the loans because now you're trying not to pay them back. Presumably most people take them out at least intending to pay them back. As to the legal point you didn't make ( ), it's better characterized as an attempt to game the bankruptcy system than a preferential transfer. Admittedly, you could definitely get away with it, but, beyond the practical and legal hurtles, I think it's wrong.

People have tried this. The UST catches them 99% of the time - that's a big part of their job description.

[Bronte]

People have tried this. The UST catches them 99% of the time - that's a big part of their job description.

The UST may not be the sexiest program in the DOJ, but from what I understand they're pretty good at catching bankruptcy fraud. Debtors with five or six figures in credit card debt raise red flags.

[crossarmant]

If you put 100% of your normal purchases on credit, and funneled all your cash income to the loans, then made minimum payments for a while before defaulting, you could totally make it work.

It could work, but it's unethical and probably illegal. Further, it could also not work, and you could end up with a criminal conviction at worst or with your bankruptcy petition dismissed, your lawyers fees down the drain, and your credit even further pwnt than it already is. There's a DOJ component called the U.S. Trustee's Office that reviews all consumer chapter 7 cases for abuse and fraud.

I'd argue that it's no more unethical than taking $100K+ in tuition for a TTT legal education. However, I can't/won't speak to legal. But it seems to me that at worst, it would be treated as a preferential payment and clawed back into the estate, leaving you only slightly worse off than if you hadn't tried.

While my comment was said in jest, I don't see how something like this is anymore nefarious than half the shit done by security brokers that got us into this recession. Buying poor home loans looking to cash in interest or trading with others trying to scoop up the most money possible... Yet they get a slap on the wrist, maybe some unkind words, yet an individual trying to buy debt with other debt is somehow a criminal? Lovely society we live in.

[Bronte]

While my comment was said in jest, I don't see how something like this is anymore nefarious than half the shit done by security brokers that got us into this recession. Buying poor home loans looking to cash in interest or trading with others trying to scoop up the most money possible... Yet they get a slap on the wrist, maybe some unkind words, yet an individual trying to buy debt with other debt is somehow a criminal? Lovely society we live in.

The fact that something is undercriminalized does not mean that something else is overcriminalized. Attempting to discharge debt in a manner proscribed by law amounts to stealing tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[cinephile]

In all seriousness, I'm not advocating fraud. But on a weird, semi-related note, I had a friend whose parents asked her to pay the last year of her undergrad, and for some reason she put it all (around 10k) on her credit card. I believe she intends to pay it back, but if at some point she can't . . .

[Bildungsroman]

In all seriousness, I'm not advocating fraud. But on a weird, semi-related note, I had a friend whose parents asked her to pay the last year of her undergrad, and for some reason she put it all (around 10k) on her credit card. I believe she intends to pay it back, but if at some point she can't . . .

Hope she enjoys getting fucked by that interest rate. And if someone did this with their law school debt the bar wouldn't admit them.

[thesealocust]

In all seriousness, I'm not advocating fraud. But on a weird, semi-related note, I had a friend whose parents asked her to pay the last year of her undergrad, and for some reason she put it all (around 10k) on her credit card. I believe she intends to pay it back, but if at some point she can't . . .

(1) You pay an extra 3% to pay tuition via CC

(2) Interest rates, which at the LOWEST are still around 8% and can be as high as 20%+++, are high and fluctuating

(3) Credit limits for even strong credit ratings are unlikely to be high enough to cover 3 years of tuition

(4) Other costs (rent) can be harder to pay via CC

(5) Bankruptcy isn't "LOL NO MORE DEBT" so much as it is "no more debt and a disaster of a credit rating."

[rcweedman]

Another non legal option might be to buy a fake identity and start over fresh. You could get a bachelors in pre-law in 2 years with a 4.0, retake the LSAT scoring 170+ and then breeze through a T6 law school with your full ride scholarship. They got your fingerprints on file but maybe you can work in canada or something.

How is this not a good plan?

[cinephile]

In all seriousness, I'm not advocating fraud. But on a weird, semi-related note, I had a friend whose parents asked her to pay the last year of her undergrad, and for some reason she put it all (around 10k) on her credit card. I believe she intends to pay it back, but if at some point she can't . . .

(1) You pay an extra 3% to pay tuition via CC

(2) Interest rates, which at the LOWEST are still around 8% and can be as high as 20%+++, are high and fluctuating

(3) Credit limits for even strong credit ratings are unlikely to be high enough to cover 3 years of tuition

(4) Other costs (rent) can be harder to pay via CC

(5) Bankruptcy isn't "LOL NO MORE DEBT" so much as it is "no more debt and a disaster of a credit rating."

Yeah, it's not a great plan. I don't think she understood how to get a loan.

[areyouinsane]

RE: paying off student loans on credit cards and then doing a Ch 7 def. will not work. Neither will taking a HELOC on a home and then defaulting on the payments and discharging the note/mortgage in bankruptcy. They do a pretty careful "look back" on even simple Ch. 7s and will catch this stuff easily. (Just google it and you can find stories of people who tried and failed).

Then you're on the hook for fraud/abuse of the system.

It's a disaster, and will only get worse as more formerly "good" jobs for highly educated people are shipped overseas by the boatload. And you do have to admit that never before in history have people in their early/mid 20s been saddled with such toxic and astronomical debt, nor with so few jobs paying a sufficient wage to service said debt. Making the debt 100% non-dischargable is another wild card never before seen in history. A bad decision at a very young age can and will haunt these kids for the rest of their lives. Only since 2005 have private loans been non-dischargable, and notice how tuitions started rocketing into the stratosphere not long after that bill became law. The schools, of course, risk nothing. They get paid in full a few days after your name is on the loan paperwork.

I also gotta LOL at people counting on IBR and other programs. I think many of you are grossly underestimating how miserable life is with debt hanging over your head. To even be IBR eligible you have to meet criteria that pretty much doom you to a shitty, sub-poverty level lifestyle anyway. The question is why anyone would seek an education to "enjoy" a lower standard of living than someone with a GED? Do you really find law that fascinating? There are no "do-overs" in this business. A few shitty doc review gigs, maybe a stint or two in shitlaw, and in only a couple short years your resume is a huge 'red flag" that screams "LOSER."

Remember, a JD closes a lot more doors than it opens. It isn't a Swiss Army Knife, and lawyers aren't viewed as "MacGyvers" who can handle any corporate job by virtue of their "superior education" and "reasoning ability" and such. In this market HR departments want cookie cutter resumes with substantial and recent experience in specific business areas, not washout JD also-rans who can "synthesize appellate caselaw."

Hell, a JD actually makes it HARDER to get a lot of jobs. For example. I applied for a job as a high school English teacher in an impoverished NJ district and got an interview last year. But in NJ teachers are paid union scale based solely on their level of education. A JD counts as "Masters Plus 45 Credits" under the NJ union scale, so they'd have to pay me 8 K more than a BA holder. (55 K vs 47 K)
And my raises would be substantially more as well down the road. So I got dinged because the school districts are broke and want cheaper labor: the Principal told me he felt terrible and really wanted to offer me the job, but the good ole' JD screwed me over- the Superintendent of the district was pushing them to cut costs and not hire Masters/JD holders (and no, you can't just agree to work for less- this is a lockstep unionized position). I actually went home and tore my JD out of the frame and tossed it into the garbage not long afterwards. I did use the frame for a nice picture my fiancee' painted for me though.

Understanding how embarrassing it is to be a "failed" attorney is a hard thing to do. No one goes to law school expecting to end up in 35 K a year shitlaw, or working in a "glass gulag" cubicle at Discover Ready for $29 an hour sans health benefits, or worst yet being totally unemployed after months of sending out resumes. Yet it does happen, and happens very frequently nowadays. Non-lawyer friends and family all chuckle and say "wow, all that schoolin' really paid off" and things like that, all the teasing and other degrading shit you endure which only makes you feel worse. Watching others buy their first home, start families, and build a future while you drift from one dead-end temp gig or shitlaw office to the next, trying to pay loans, health ins. bar dues, CLE fees, etc.

I frequent a lot of ex-pat mssg boards (since I'm soon joining their ranks), and I'm amazed at how many kids are overseas solely to escape the student loan debt noose. Yes, you don't get paid a huge amount of $$$ to teach in Turkey, but you can have a decent little apartment, eat out a few nights a week/have drinks, travel a bit on your time off, etc. All things that I cannot and will not be able to do in the US. Plus my fiancee has already lived there and had friends and connections which could actually help me rebuild my life down the road. WTF I am going to do here in the US? Work in a glass box at Discover-Ready for $29 an hour until even the scraps of these shitjobs are outsourced to India, with Aunt Sallie Mae garnishing 30% or more of my paycheck? I'd rather just eat a gun now than face that kind of "life," if that's what you want to call it.

And just looking around the US, you can't help but see not a nation but an empire, an empire undergoing a terminal phase of decline. We jail more people than any country on Earth, have pointless wars raging in 3 theatres now (hello Libya), high & systemic unemployment, housing values that know no bottom, wages actually lower in adj. dollars than in 1973, crumbling roads and bridges, terrible public schools, wholesale outsourcing of jobs, and a political class composed of shysters and morons who are 100% owned by the Wall St "boyz" and act only to further their interests. I often tell people "the question isn't why I'm leaving, it's why the fuck you're STAYING?"

[Verity]

Turkey is very beautiful.

[ndirish2010]

And just looking around the US, you can't help but see not a nation but an empire, an empire undergoing a terminal phase of decline. We jail more people than any country on Earth, have pointless wars raging in 3 theatres now (hello Libya), high & systemic unemployment, housing values that know no bottom, wages actually lower in adj. dollars than in 1973, crumbling roads and bridges, terrible public schools, wholesale outsourcing of jobs, and a political class composed of shysters and morons who are 100% owned by the Wall St "boyz" and act only to further their interests. I often tell people "the question isn't why I'm leaving, it's why the fuck you're STAYING?"

LOL. Sorry, this is funny. It's not the country's fault.