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What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:48 pm
by lawgod
So I am working this summer (my 1L summer) in this huge corporation the size of an elephant.
I am doing little research projects for the general counsel's office, so far.
And I sit there and wonder: What am I costing these people in westlaw charges? I do these huge searches, and then sit there sorting through results. I try to download pages instead of reading online, but I still spend hours a day on westlaw.
Hmmmm.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:50 pm
by imchuckbass58
lawgod wrote:So I am working this summer (my 1L summer) in this huge corporation the size of an elephant.
I am doing little research projects for the general counsel's office, so far.
And I sit there and wonder: What am I costing these people in westlaw charges? I do these huge searches, and then sit there sorting through results. I try to download pages instead of reading online, but I still spend hours a day on westlaw.
Hmmmm.
It could easily be over $5000 per week if they're on a regular transactional plan. At firms large searches (e.g., allfeds) cost north of $200 each.
Take a cost-efficient research class. If you don't have the time, the basic gist is:
-Stop searching large databases because it's almost never necessary - use smaller ones.
-Don't redo searches. Start with a broad search, then filter/narrow within your results (this costs nothing, while re-searching costs as much as the original search) - I think it's called "locate in result."
-Use West Find and Print if you know the citation of what you're trying to find.
-If you're accessing a document you already viewed, access it through your research trail (free) instead of pulling the citation or redoing the search (costs money).
-Use digests/treatises to point you in the right direction instead of searching aimlessly.
You should also see if your employer has an hourly (rather than transactional) option for Westlaw. For the type of stuff you're doing it's probably cheaper.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:53 pm
by lawgod
I can't take a cost effective research class.
I'm working
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:58 pm
by Kilpatrick
lawgod wrote:So I am working this summer (my 1L summer) in this huge corporation the size of an elephant.
I am doing little research projects for the general counsel's office, so far.
And I sit there and wonder: What am I costing these people in westlaw charges? I do these huge searches, and then sit there sorting through results. I try to download pages instead of reading online, but I still spend hours a day on westlaw.
Hmmmm.
Does it cost money just to be on Westlaw? If so... shit. I thought only searches cost money
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:05 pm
by imchuckbass58
Kilpatrick wrote:
Does it cost money just to be on Westlaw? If so... shit. I thought only searches cost money
Depends if your employer has an hourly plan or transactional (some have both).
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:12 pm
by flcath
Is there anywhere that holds associates accountable for racking up too much Westlaw?
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:14 pm
by Kilpatrick
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Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:18 pm
by lawgod
imchuckbass58 wrote:lawgod wrote:So I am working this summer (my 1L summer) in this huge corporation the size of an elephant.
I am doing little research projects for the general counsel's office, so far.
And I sit there and wonder: What am I costing these people in westlaw charges? I do these huge searches, and then sit there sorting through results. I try to download pages instead of reading online, but I still spend hours a day on westlaw.
Hmmmm.
It could easily be over $5000 per week if they're on a regular transactional plan. At firms large searches (e.g., allfeds) cost north of $200 each.
Take a cost-efficient research class. If you don't have the time, the basic gist is:
-Stop searching large databases because it's almost never necessary - use smaller ones.
-Don't redo searches. Start with a broad search, then filter/narrow within your results (this costs nothing, while re-searching costs as much as the original search) - I think it's called "locate in result."
-Use West Find and Print if you know the citation of what you're trying to find.
-If you're accessing a document you already viewed, access it through your research trail (free) instead of pulling the citation or redoing the search (costs money).
-Use digests/treatises to point you in the right direction instead of searching aimlessly.
You should also see if your employer has an hourly (rather than transactional) option for Westlaw. For the type of stuff you're doing it's probably cheaper.
Thanks.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:19 pm
by Anonymous User
$13/minute for westlaw next...too lazy to find the link on their website now, but I'll post it tomorrow.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:21 pm
by lawgod
Anonymous User wrote:$13/minute for westlaw next...too lazy to find the link on their website now, but I'll post it tomorrow.
I think that is only if you don't have any plan.
Mine has a plan. I know because I occasionally click on something and it says "that is outside your plan, do you want to proceed" (not exact quote)
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 11:25 pm
by Grizz
I'm working for the feds, so your tax dollars are paying me to search hilariously inefficiently
lolololololololololololololol
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:49 am
by Unitas
I have started using google to come up with cases then using westlaw only to check the status of them or find more cases that cited that case.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:14 am
by Anonymous User
Doing a split internship with DOJ and another gov entity at the same time, they told me it's charged by the minute but not to worry about it because they never see the bill
Nice that I don't have to worry about it, but someone is paying for it.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:18 am
by TTH
Anonymous User wrote:Doing a split internship with DOJ and another gov entity at the same time, they told me it's charged by the minute but not to worry about it because they never see the bill
Nice that I don't have to worry about it, but someone is paying for it.
Paul Ryan would not be amused.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 10:07 am
by LurkerNoMore
You should not be using Westlaw if you don't know what you are looking for.
Start with a combination of Google and Wikipedia to figure out the basics of the field. Get a lay of the land, terms of art. You might be able to get treatises and cases through here too (of course this shouldn't be the end of the line -- you still need to run them through Westlaw once you figure out if they are on point).
After you've figured out what the question really is, then you can move on to Westlaw. Click through your secondary sources and search for databases to see if there are practitioner guides on the topic you've been assigned. Run searches in these smaller databases.
Only hit up cases when you really know what fine points of law you are looking for.
Number one rule for cost effective research: search the smallest database set you can with the broadest search terms you can think of (that won't pull over the 3,000 or whatever hits). Once you have that search run, you can search within it for free (assuming that you are transactional and not time based).
Basically, Westlaw should only be used if you know the database and search terms you are looking for.
Oh, another thing: since you are working in a GC's office, I'm guessing that you might be researching some pretty fresh issues. Try googling "client alert" and the topic you've been given. Law firms send out all sorts of practical materials discussing coming laws or or changes in regs and other timely issues. They are often online and can be treasure troves of information.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 5:23 pm
by lawgod
LurkerNoMore wrote:You should not be using Westlaw if you don't know what you are looking for.
Oh, another thing: since you are working in a GC's office, I'm guessing that you might be researching some pretty fresh issues. Try googling "client alert" and the topic you've been given. Law firms send out all sorts of practical materials discussing coming laws or or changes in regs and other timely issues. They are often online and can be treasure troves of information.
Thanks. That last bit is a real good idea.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 7:31 pm
by Anonymous User
i'm assuming using your school westlaw account during your summer job is not allowed?
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:01 pm
by Anonymous User
My firm pays a fixed monthly amount to Westlaw (as long as you don't go off plan). The only reason that the transactional costs are relevant is if the firm wants to bill them to a client in order to recover some of the Westlaw costs. So technically, I am not costing the firm anything when I search. If I bill it to the client, then I am costing the client something but saving the firm something. This was not clearly explained to me at first, and I am not sure if everybody at the firm even understands how it works.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:05 pm
by 3ThrowAway99
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:07 pm
by 3ThrowAway99
Kilpatrick wrote:God I hope it's transactional, I spent all day on Westlaw today. I don't even think I signed off when I went to lunch
Don't you mean you hope it's NOT transactional? Or am I missing something here...
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:12 pm
by 3ThrowAway99
I'm in a PI job so my West access is just an extension of my regular law school access... I imagine the contract rate (which is pretty ridiculous) for the school stays the same for the year regardless of how many students are taking advantage of the summer PI option.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 8:19 pm
by Kilpatrick
.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:29 pm
by Anonymous User
Anonymous User wrote:My firm pays a fixed monthly amount to Westlaw (as long as you don't go off plan). The only reason that the transactional costs are relevant is if the firm wants to bill them to a client in order to recover some of the Westlaw costs. So technically, I am not costing the firm anything when I search. If I bill it to the client, then I am costing the client something but saving the firm something. This was not clearly explained to me at first, and I am not sure if everybody at the firm even understands how it works.
This is true at almost all of the big law firms.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:38 pm
by 03121202698008
Some tips from cost effective class:
You pay for searches but not locates. So, run the largest search you'll need, then use the locate feature to retrieve smaller groups matching whatever terms. (Instead of running actual searches for them.)
In class, you don't pay to print if you right click on case and select Print from the browser. You pay if you click the print icon.
Re: What Am I Costing Them in Westlaw?
Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 10:19 pm
by YourCaptain
rad law wrote:I'm working for the feds, so your tax dollars are paying me to search hilariously inefficiently
lolololololololololololololol
