bottom quarter at davis/hastings...what kind of jobs? advice Forum

[Anonymous User]

Waiter at Cheese, Cake, & Factory or somewhere else in BIGrestaurant.

[General Tso]

Essentially, no job is foreclosed to you that wouldn't otherwise be just by virtue of you being at Davis ITE. . . IN CALIFORNIA.

I think Veyron is correct. Don't let your grades discourage you...people who are top 1/3, median, etc. are not in any better position than you. It's not like a small firm is going to hire a median Hastings person over you just on the basis of grades. If you meet some people and they like you, you will find a job eventually.

[Anonymous User]

yeah I was hearing that the economy is just so bad in general that even people at median aren't finding jobs...so there really isn't THAT much difference between someone at median or close to bottom 25 percent. It's rough for everyone. I guess this makes me feel a bit better.

[Anonymous User]

"Again, forget the resume. The solo has connections. State gov is a dead end in your situation unless it directly meshes with significant pre-LS W/E. Just fucking blow the guy away this summer. Work 12 hours a day, accept assignments due Monday on Sunday with no notice. Do everything you possibly can to make his life easy. Get the coffee, proof his briefs, double-check his contracts, have him be like "I don't even know how I lived without this kid."

AHHH...thanks a lot...best advice I've received on TLS in a long time.

I'm in my forties and when I started out, this advice was a given for all young people, not just those with some black marks on their resume. We didn't have this sense of entitlement that kids have today. I think you can look at this as a blessing. It will teach you to humbly bust your ass. And over the long run, you will be much better off.

Having said that my further advice would be not to settle. You seem to be accepting less after one semester of bad grades. Would you have made those statements the first day of class about how much salary was okay with you, etc.? Go get the OCI interviews. Even if you don't succeed you will be preparing yourself to make you case before the guy that will ultimately hire you.

Just reading the thread, I sense you have what it takes, although you are just a bit undirected. So the next step is to get better advice. Get some mentors. Ask for help. When people help you they become invested. And when you are grateful for their help, they stay vested. Get lawyers to help you, and they will later advocate for you.

If you have a problem, hang a lantern on it. I would go to my professors and argue my grades. Let them know that you are worried about your future and that you will do anything to succeed. Even if they don't improve your grades (they might), they may end up helping you get a job this summer.

Good luck. Commit to biglaw today. That is the big leagues for young lawyers. Say, I am going to find a way to offset this poor start. Even if it doesn't workout for biglaw, you will be better able to achieve something else.

*Is 40*

*Grew up when contributions to labor force desperately needed, made enough money to support self*

*Ironically, is also so out of touch with current entry level hiring that he believes the someone below median at Davis can still get biglaw if they try real hard*

*Complains about "Kids these days"*

*Will have no compunction about gulping up social security check from "kids these days" when the time comes*

Over 40

Also grew up when 23 yo thought they knew everything

Hires dozens of experienced professionals every year, understands job market

Complains about kids these days because he worked 80 hour weeks with a T20 MBA, summa cum laude, for 40k a year during the last major downturn in 93. Never bitched about how unfair life was. Lived through this exact thing. But you at 21 or whatever, know better.

Doesnt believe someone below median at Davis can get biglaw. Also doesnt believe kid has to stay below median or go biglaw. Thinks kid has to fight for biglaw so he will have some skills and abilities when he does present to the market.

But a sage unemployed tycoon like you can't read that into the comment. I know you dont need encouragement like this guy, bc your parents always told you that you can shit an ice cream cone. You are why people hate lawyers.

[Veyron]

Complains about kids these days because he worked 80 hour weeks with a T20 MBA, summa cum laude, for 40k a year during the last major downturn in 93. Never bitched about how unfair life was. Lived through this exact thing. But you at 21 or whatever, know better.

Adjusting for inflation, that's about 60k for 80 hours a week. Lots of T20 law school kids would kill for that right now, not call that something to bitch about. Also, your debt load was probably significantly less than what most T20 law students are carrying, tuition has far outpaced the rate of inflation.

*Will have no compunction about gulping up social security check from "kids these days" when the time comes*

Crickets chirp

But a sage unemployed tycoon like you can't read that into the comment. I know you dont need encouragement like this guy, bc your parents always told you that you can shit an ice cream cone. You are why people hate lawyers.

Good, if you're a lawyer and people don't hate you you are doing something wrong.

[Anonymous User]

Complains about kids these days because he worked 80 hour weeks with a T20 MBA, summa cum laude, for 40k a year during the last major downturn in 93. Never bitched about how unfair life was. Lived through this exact thing. But you at 21 or whatever, know better.

Adjusting for inflation, that's about 60k for 80 hours a week. Lots of T20 law school kids would kill for that right now, not call that something to bitch about. Also, your debt load was probably significantly less than what most T20 law students are carrying, tuition has far outpaced the rate of inflation.

*Will have no compunction about gulping up social security check from "kids these days" when the time comes*

Crickets chirp

But a sage unemployed tycoon like you can't read that into the comment. I know you dont need encouragement like this guy, bc your parents always told you that you can shit an ice cream cone. You are why people hate lawyers.

Good, if you're a lawyer and people don't hate you you are doing something wrong.

People will hate you because your a dick, not a good lawyer. And lots of great lawyers are respected and admired almost universally.

I wont need nor do I think SSI will be there for me. I am already retired. I dont want kids to pay for senior ssi, I would rather it was privatized or ended. But that is irrelevant.

The point is that things are tough sometimes. But assholes like you want to diminish everyone around you bc you think you have your ticket punched with your Penn admit, or whatever. You are a tiny little man. Im not going to Penn, but if I was I could pick you out in about 10 seconds. And anyone who calls themself Veyron is a jerk-off.

[Veyron]

Complains about kids these days because he worked 80 hour weeks with a T20 MBA, summa cum laude, for 40k a year during the last major downturn in 93. Never bitched about how unfair life was. Lived through this exact thing. But you at 21 or whatever, know better.

Adjusting for inflation, that's about 60k for 80 hours a week. Lots of T20 law school kids would kill for that right now, not call that something to bitch about. Also, your debt load was probably significantly less than what most T20 law students are carrying, tuition has far outpaced the rate of inflation.

*Will have no compunction about gulping up social security check from "kids these days" when the time comes*

Crickets chirp

But a sage unemployed tycoon like you can't read that into the comment. I know you dont need encouragement like this guy, bc your parents always told you that you can shit an ice cream cone. You are why people hate lawyers.

Good, if you're a lawyer and people don't hate you you are doing something wrong.

People will hate you because your a dick, not a good lawyer. And lots of great lawyers are respected and admired almost universally.

I wont need nor do I think SSI will be there for me. I am already retired. I dont want kids to pay for senior ssi, I would rather it was privatized or ended. But that is irrelevant.

The point is that things are tough sometimes. But assholes like you want to diminish everyone around you bc you think you have your ticket punched with your Penn admit, or whatever. You are a tiny little man. Im not going to Penn, but if I was I could pick you out in about 10 seconds. And anyone who calls themself Veyron is a jerk-off.

The fact that you think that a Penn admit "punches your ticket" anymore shows how out of touch you are. For anyone above the junior associate level, it is very difficult to grasp how much things have changed. Even many kids who went through OCI before 2008 don't get it. In any event, I should hope that you would be able to pick me out in a crowd.

And yes, there are "good" lawyers who are universally admired, but few great ones (except in transactional). Members of the bar like Joe Jamail, or Justices Scalia and Thomas for that matter, are widely loathed - indeed, derided as jerk-offs.

[Anonymous User]

Pissing contests aside, the problem with Mr. Super-Wise-Old-Guy here is that he's in love with a dead--long dead--system of loyalty advancement. When he was a child, 23 yos sacrificed themselves for then-Old-Guys like him. This is the mentor ideal. It pumps up old Old Guys in the crotch because it makes them feel powerful. Who doesn't want a desperate bitchboy to bring you coffee and praise you, work weekends and sacrifice their youth for you? But we just got scathed by mass layoffs, rescissions, and deferrals. Loyalty isn't rewarded. Networking is overrated. This isn't a matter of entitlement, it's just recognition that people will take your time and cost and will still f you over.

[judgeholden]

Is the economy really that bad? So if I end up between median and bottom quarter...is it really going to be hard finding a small firm job(50-60k income)...?

Why are you asking this here?

You're in the school. You're walking the halls. Stop some 3L and ask him what his job prospects have been like. Ask him if he's got anything lined up and if his peers do. You will be in his exact shoes in 2 years and he can give you a significantly better idea than anyone here.


I will say this, though:
- The whole "work for a solo" thing is bunk. As others have mentioned, solos are far more likely to use you as cheap/free labor than anything else. We can bitch about "kids today" all we want, but need to also mention "adults today." Few are looking to help anyone other than themselves. I know people that clerked for judges that wouldn't lift a finger to help them out. I know people that worked 20 hours a week at small firms all during 2L and 3L, hurting their GPAs, without getting any career search help from it. These people were more common than others. Mind you, this was back in 06. You're better off putting that effort into your GPA. Yes, jobs are had based on who you know, but in this economy everyone looking to hire manages to know someone with fantastic grades. NJ superior court judges are hiring ivy grads...
- OCI is bunk. Someone mentioned to you to see how OCI goes. Sorry, you're not going to get any OCI interest other than maybe the DEA asking you to do drug busts. It's possible you'll get a few interviews but they'll be token. You have 0 OCI chance. I'd guess you have 0 chance at anything other than doc review unless you're lucky, but again talk to some 3Ls.
- Top 20 MBA is horribly unimpressive these days. As bad as '93 was, that wasn't very true then.

[Veyron]

^ TBF, I would go for the DEA job, thats near the top of the heap ITE for a Davis grad- trial work + government hours, benifits, security = win. I'm suprised you think OP has a shot.

Also, then OP could use LRAP for any non-tuition loans after 10 years.

[judgeholden]

^ TBF, I would go for the DEA job, thats near the top of the heap ITE for a Davis grad- trial work + government hours, benifits, security = win. I'm suprised you think OP has a shot.

Also, then OP could use LRAP for any non-tuition loans after 10 years.

No, you misunderstood me. The interview wouldn't be to be a DEA attorney but DEA agent.


It happened to me. It was the OCI interview I was most excited about. Turned out that the DEA didn't want me for legal work but to run around with a gun busting drug deals. They did the interviews 2L not because they wanted you that summer but because they wanted you to have plenty of time to pass their fitness test. Then they'd put you on two 12 month rotations in which you had no pick of city. To run around with a gun doing absolutely nothing legal.

[Veyron]

^ TBF, I would go for the DEA job, thats near the top of the heap ITE for a Davis grad- trial work + government hours, benifits, security = win. I'm suprised you think OP has a shot.

Also, then OP could use LRAP for any non-tuition loans after 10 years.

No, you misunderstood me. The interview wouldn't be to be a DEA attorney but DEA agent.


It happened to me. It was the OCI interview I was most excited about. Turned out that the DEA didn't want me for legal work but to run around with a gun busting drug deals. They did the interviews 2L not because they wanted you that summer but because they wanted you to have plenty of time to pass their fitness test. Then they'd put you on two 12 month rotations in which you had no pick of city. To run around with a gun doing absolutely nothing legal.

Oh shit. Why would they recruit at a law school?

[judgeholden]

--LinkRemoved--

One of the "OR"s is "LL.B. or J.D. degree with prosecutorial experience."


I think it's because you end up in court quite often, but it's been so long I don't recall.
The FBI and SS recruit heavily at MBA programs now, which reminded me of this, but those are for actual business and project management positions. This was a field one.


Haha, their FAQ has "What is your drug use policy?"

[TigerBeer]

"Again, forget the resume. The solo has connections. State gov is a dead end in your situation unless it directly meshes with significant pre-LS W/E. Just fucking blow the guy away this summer. Work 12 hours a day, accept assignments due Monday on Sunday with no notice. Do everything you possibly can to make his life easy. Get the coffee, proof his briefs, double-check his contracts, have him be like "I don't even know how I lived without this kid."

AHHH...thanks a lot...best advice I've received on TLS in a long time.

I'm in my forties and when I started out, this advice was a given for all young people, not just those with some black marks on their resume. We didn't have this sense of entitlement that kids have today. I think you can look at this as a blessing. It will teach you to humbly bust your ass. And over the long run, you will be much better off.

Having said that my further advice would be not to settle. You seem to be accepting less after one semester of bad grades. Would you have made those statements the first day of class about how much salary was okay with you, etc.? Go get the OCI interviews. Even if you don't succeed you will be preparing yourself to make you case before the guy that will ultimately hire you.

Just reading the thread, I sense you have what it takes, although you are just a bit undirected. So the next step is to get better advice. Get some mentors. Ask for help. When people help you they become invested. And when you are grateful for their help, they stay vested. Get lawyers to help you, and they will later advocate for you.

If you have a problem, hang a lantern on it. I would go to my professors and argue my grades. Let them know that you are worried about your future and that you will do anything to succeed. Even if they don't improve your grades (they might), they may end up helping you get a job this summer.

Good luck. Commit to biglaw today. That is the big leagues for young lawyers. Say, I am going to find a way to offset this poor start. Even if it doesn't workout for biglaw, you will be better able to achieve something else.

*Is 40*

*Grew up when contributions to labor force desperately needed, made enough money to support self*

*Ironically, is also so out of touch with current entry level hiring that he believes the someone below median at Davis can still get biglaw if they try real hard*

*Complains about "Kids these days"*

*Will have no compunction about gulping up social security check from "kids these days" when the time comes*

Over 40

Also grew up when 23 yo thought they knew everything

Hires dozens of experienced professionals every year, understands job market

Complains about kids these days because he worked 80 hour weeks with a T20 MBA, summa cum laude, for 40k a year during the last major downturn in 93. Never bitched about how unfair life was. Lived through this exact thing. But you at 21 or whatever, know better.

Doesnt believe someone below median at Davis can get biglaw. Also doesnt believe kid has to stay below median or go biglaw. Thinks kid has to fight for biglaw so he will have some skills and abilities when he does present to the market.

But a sage unemployed tycoon like you can't read that into the comment. I know you dont need encouragement like this guy, bc your parents always told you that you can shit an ice cream cone. You are why people hate lawyers.

93 wasn't shit you pussy

try getting hired during a real recession, then maybe you can talk down

ps. i dont need viagra to get it up and girls still find me attractive for things besides my money and possessions

[thexfactor]

+1
all you have to do is check the unemployment rate in 93 vs 2010. The diff between this and any other recession is the length of unemployment.

we havent seen these kinds of numbers since the early 80s.

[Anonymous User]

so pretty much people are saying that median to bottom 25th at davis/hastings cant do OCI(which makes sense), can't get a paying firm job(above 50k), and will have trouble getting doc review...this is what I'm understanding so far....well it seems I'll have to work for this solo and bust my ass off, hoping he has some decent connections for my 2L year.

[theghostofDrewTate]

+1
all you have to do is check the unemployment rate in 93 vs 2010. The diff between this and any other recession is the length of unemployment.

we havent seen these kinds of numbers since the early 80s.

'93 was pretty bad for new entrants into the job market - they aren't counted in the unemployment numbers now and they weren't included in them then. My brother's a few years older than me and he entered the job market in '94. He started out as a server at a TGIFriday's in Times Square that took him months to land before getting a mundane job with terrible hours for around $25k with an insurance company in NYC. He has stuck with it and is now making pretty good money. I got very lucky and graduated college a few years later and had 4 job offers within a week of graduation and graduated from LS in the midst of a massive bull market, so I can't say I have ever been in a spot like you youngsters. But don't bash the old guys, a lot of them have been in a spot darn near as bad as the kids coming out today. Difference is they didn't get a ribbon for everything they ever participated in and told how special they were in some utterly failed effort at boosting the nation's collective self-esteem. I remember when there was no internets and then when it came out and modems were 14.4k - the day I upgraded to a 31.6k was like heaven. You guys today get flustered if the facebook is inaccessible from your iPhone for 20 minutes.

[A'nold]

+1
all you have to do is check the unemployment rate in 93 vs 2010. The diff between this and any other recession is the length of unemployment.

we havent seen these kinds of numbers since the early 80s.

'93 was pretty bad for new entrants into the job market - they aren't counted in the unemployment numbers now and they weren't included in them then. My brother's a few years older than me and he entered the job market in '94. He started out as a server at a TGIFriday's in Times Square that took him months to land before getting a mundane job with terrible hours for around $25k with an insurance company in NYC. He has stuck with it and is now making pretty good money. I got very lucky and graduated college a few years later and had 4 job offers within a week of graduation and graduated from LS in the midst of a massive bull market, so I can't say I have ever been in a spot like you youngsters. But don't bash the old guys, a lot of them have been in a spot darn near as bad as the kids coming out today. Difference is they didn't get a ribbon for everything they ever participated in and told how special they were in some utterly failed effort at boosting the nation's collective self-esteem. I remember when there was no internets and then when it came out and modems were 14.4k - the day I upgraded to a 31.6k was like heaven. You guys today get flustered if the facebook is inaccessible from your iPhone for 20 minutes.

This was so awesome.

[General Tso]

25k was not that bad in 1993. That is nearly 40k in today's dollars and NYC did not get crazy expensive until the late 90s/00s.

[thexfactor]

+1
all you have to do is check the unemployment rate in 93 vs 2010. The diff between this and any other recession is the length of unemployment.

we havent seen these kinds of numbers since the early 80s.

'93 was pretty bad for new entrants into the job market - they aren't counted in the unemployment numbers now and they weren't included in them then. My brother's a few years older than me and he entered the job market in '94. He started out as a server at a TGIFriday's in Times Square that took him months to land before getting a mundane job with terrible hours for around $25k with an insurance company in NYC. He has stuck with it and is now making pretty good money. I got very lucky and graduated college a few years later and had 4 job offers within a week of graduation and graduated from LS in the midst of a massive bull market, so I can't say I have ever been in a spot like you youngsters. But don't bash the old guys, a lot of them have been in a spot darn near as bad as the kids coming out today. Difference is they didn't get a ribbon for everything they ever participated in and told how special they were in some utterly failed effort at boosting the nation's collective self-esteem. I remember when there was no internets and then when it came out and modems were 14.4k - the day I upgraded to a 31.6k was like heaven. You guys today get flustered if the facebook is inaccessible from your iPhone for 20 minutes.

Yea it was 7% vs 9. +2% more unemployment is a lot of jobs missing. At the peak of the 93 recession the unemployment rate was 7.6%. The current recession peak is well over 10%. Check the length of the recession too. The 93 recession went up to 7% for a while then went back down immediately a year or 2 later. This recession has been long and is projected to last for at least another 4-5 years before there is normal unemployment. I think their definition of "normal is 5-6%. The 93 recession never lasted that long.
--LinkRemoved--

Lastly, check the kind of jobs that are getting cut. Unlike previous recessions which cut manufacturing, this recession hit financials especially hard. Unlike manufacturing jobs which are mostly HS level graduates, Financials hire a lot of college students.

I don't think people in your generation understand how hard it is for recent college graduates. You guys are in a much better position with work experience.

Yes we take the internet for granted the same way your generation took cable tv for granted. Would it be fair for your parents to say that they had problems with cable tv and that you take it for granted?
Or your if your grandparents said that your parents take TV for granted?

[General Tso]

I don't think people in your generation understand how hard it is for recent college graduates. You guys are in a much better position with work experience.

how CAN they understand? their tuition was $500 a semester and living costs were dirt cheap. they could put themselves through school by flipping burgers. not only do we face a shitty job market, we are often $100k+ in the hole from the get-go.

[theghostofDrewTate]

I don't think people in your generation understand how hard it is for recent college graduates. You guys are in a much better position with work experience.

how CAN they understand? their tuition was $500 a semester and living costs were dirt cheap. they could put themselves through school by flipping burgers. not only do we face a shitty job market, we are often $100k+ in the hole from the get-go.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm probably only 10-12 years older than most of the people on here and I readily admitted the job market was totally awesome both when I got out of UG and LS. I went to Iowa - the tuition when I went was around $10k a year and now it is close to 3 times that - there has been massive inflation - I have told a lot of kids (on this board and in real life) to reconsider going there unless it was free because I don't see the value in going that far into debt for such a marginal degree in a flooded field. I think a lot of older people who speak to the economic realities facing a lot of the younger people on this board are frowned upon, so please don't lump me into the scambloggers camp. If you guys are smart enough to go to a T14 LS, you have the ability to go get some scutwork job at an insurance company or something and work your way up the ladder with patience (note - many people in those businesses aren't that smart and if you have the resume to get into HLS, you would have the ability to rise up the ranks in darn near any business in this country). But the work sucks and the pecuniary payday that everyone thinks they see by going to a T14/top law school isn't there 3 years later - that path is not linear. But the debt isn't there either. That debt is a decision you made - you could go to CC and then state school or to a lower ranked school on scholly to avoid the UG debt.

I specifically chose Iowa even though I got into higher ranked schools because it was very cheap. I took a MAJOR risk with my tuition payments and it paid off. Anyone with $100k in debt took a major risk, too, but not all of those risks pay off. If you've got that kind of debt, there's no magical solution - you've gotta get some kind of office job and follow it up as a ticket taker at a cinema on the weekends or something. Life ain't gonna be fun.

With tuition as ridiculous as it is, a lot of people who are borrowing money for LS need to look at the first semester/year as an option - drop out if you are at the bottom of the class and will incur another $80+k in debt to graduate. It's simply not worth it if you are looking for a large economic payout (obviously irrelevant at T6 or so - jobs should be plentiful for those folks). Get that crappy job at a company and be the hardest working guy there - you'll get noticed and move up. Sorry to be repetitive, but anyone who can get into a good LS would be just fine in corporate America - it's a competitive world but I have confidence in some of the kids who are younger (some, not all). Look at all the idiots around, then look at yourself, ask yourself who the boomers would rather put in charge when they set sail on retirement - some idiot with gauged ears and neck tattoos (plenty of those kids around) or the clean, well spoken guy who's smart enough to get into a good law school. I think Gen Y has a serious crisis of confidence, but I don't blame you guys, I blame the parents who started overcoddling the mid-late 80's and 90's babies and who have embedded this idea of the need to play the higher ed game forever. Good luck dudes. USA #1.

[Veyron]

but anyone who can get into a good LS would be just fine in corporate America

Lol, MOST Law Firm partners wouldn't even be fine in corporate America.

[thexfactor]

Interesting article on the global youth unemployment problem..


http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... 743638.htm

"What's more, when jobs do come back, employers might choose to reach past today's unemployed, who may appear to be damaged goods, and pick from the next crop of fresh-faced grads. Starting one's career during a recession can have long-term negative consequences. Lisa B. Kahn, an economist at the Yale School of Management, estimates that for white, male college students in the U.S., a 1 percentage point increase in the unemployment rate at the time of graduation causes an initial wage loss of 6 percent to 7 percent—and even after 15 years the recession graduates earn about 2.5 percent less than they would have if they had not come out of school during a downturn. There's a psychological impact as well. "Individuals growing up during recessions tend to believe that success in life depends more on luck than on effort, support more government redistribution, but are less confident in public institutions," conclude Paola Giuliano of UCLA's Anderson School of Management and Antonio Spilimbergo of the International Monetary Fund in a 2009 study. Downturns, the study suggests, breed self-doubting liberals."

[General Tso]

"Individuals growing up during recessions tend to believe that success in life depends more on luck than on effort, support more government redistribution, but are less confident in public institutions," conclude Paola Giuliano of UCLA's Anderson School of Management and Antonio Spilimbergo of the International Monetary Fund in a 2009 study. Downturns, the study suggests, breed self-doubting liberals."

guilty as charged...I was a republican in high school