Below Median at t10 school Forum

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BruceWayne

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by BruceWayne » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:32 am

vanwinkle wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:^ In his defense Rd and the anonymous posters are basically saying the same thing. And since you had really high grades will you ever really know if what they're saying isn't true!? Maybe you could purposely bomb the rest of 2L and apply for a clerkship next year so you can find out for us! :lol:
There's a huge difference between saying "don't give up, you can still overcome below median grades" and saying "no one is evaluated differently, and bottom third and median are really the same thing".

Yeah that is a bit extreme.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by rdt854 » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:35 am

vanwinkle wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:^ In his defense Rd and the anonymous posters are basically saying the same thing. And since you had really high grades will you ever really know if what they're saying isn't true!? Maybe you could purposely bomb the rest of 2L and apply for a clerkship next year so you can find out for us! :lol:
There's a huge difference between saying "don't give up, you can still overcome below median grades" and saying "no one is evaluated differently, and bottom third and median are really the same thing".
From the way firms look at it, I really don't think there's much of a difference between bottom 3rd and median. They understand the razor thin curve at top schools... I had just as many callbacks with a 3.21 as most people I knew with 3.3's. It depends a lot on where you are in the bottom third and what the other parts of your resume look like. And again, if you have a few A's sprinkled in, I honestly feel like it elevates you above someone with a higher GPA that has no A's.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by Veyron » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:36 am

TBF I was talking about middle third but below median. If I'm bottom 1/3, thats a whole 'nuther ballgame - I feel like I definately made a lot of mistakes but its hard for me to immagine ending the year that low given the amount of work I'm doing and that I feel like I'm figuring out the game.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by $$$$$$ » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:41 am

is it really that different? I know kids with gpas in the 3.2's with better offers then kids with 3.4. A 3.2 and a 3.3 are so close numerically but on a B+ curve, probably separated by a decent amount statistically. At the end of the day, a B instead of a B+, or an A- instead of a B+ can raise/lower you that .1. I dont think most employers really care about this distinction. Again, im not talking about the really great firms out there, im talking about most nalp firms. And yea, im just a 1l, but ive talked to quite few hiring partners about this from firms ranging V5 - nalp 250 and to them grades are just part of the package and how great tat package has to be depends on the firm.

also, the interviews are the same. Whether you have a 3.8 or a 3.2, its the same interview, thats what i meant by evaluation, i didnt mean they are looked at the same way in the eyes of the firm's hiring commitee. And i never said bottom 3rd and median are the same. I dont even know if a 3.2 is bottom third. But I cannot imagine a 3.3 getting an offer over a 3.2 kid soley because of that .1 difference in GPA.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by GreenHeels » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:42 am

I can't believe the naivete. 1Ls posting about the job market and such.

33% of Harvard students didn't get anything out of OCI this year. Do you understand what that means? How shit things are? My favorite post was the one from UVA who came in below his median and "got 7 offers," ostensibly because he's so charming and baller in interviews. Anecdotal evidence ftw, apparently.

Trust me, if your grades suck (and believe me, B- sucks right now, if it ever didn't), you are going to have it rough. Period. t10, wherever. You'll get OCI interviews, because most schools use some kind of random selection process for interviews. Whether anything comes of them is straight blind luck. Your interview skills are not going to overcome grades, you're just going to make a connection with someone or not. And they will be a junior associate with no ability to shoe-horn you in or they will be the senior partner who gets whatever he wants. You cannot control or predict it.

The only things that are within your control? Grades and social skills. Outside of that, there's a certain amount of hustle that will could get you somewhere that others fail to reach. But grades and social skills. And they are no guarantee. The one guarantee? Shitty grades or social skills doom you.

So don't get anymore B-s.

Good luck,

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Veyron

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by Veyron » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:46 am

^ TBF, though I am a major pessimist, I have good reason to believe the UVA story.

Also, OCI isn't the end-all to be all. I'd be perfectly content working for a midsized firm in my low col secondary market. They hire SAs but don't do OCI outside of the state. At the point where my all-in is close to 100k, I'm a happy, happy camper.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by $$$$$$ » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:53 am

Veyron wrote:^ TBF, though I am a major pessimist, I have good reason to believe the UVA story.

Also, OCI isn't the end-all to be all. I'd be perfectly content working for a midsized firm in my low col secondary market. They hire SAs but don't do OCI outside of the state. At the point where my all-in is close to 100k, I'm a happy, happy camper.
exactly, and this is exactly how im approaching it. Hustle my freaking ass off if my grades are not near the top quarter. Mid law firms (nalp) in the northeast pay pretty dam well and would love to take a personable t10 kid with a 3.2 and a good resume ive seen it happen and employers have straight up told me this. people on these boards overlook this way too often, and i know that grades are important, but ultimately the point is to get a job. how you get that job doesnt matter, just get the job.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by GreenHeels » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:02 am

Noone was saying the UVA story wasn't true. The reason it is hilarious is because the random, single instance of success against long odds shouldn't motivate others to take on the same challenge. It worked out for that kid; cool, great, wonderful. It. Doesn't. For. Most.

As to the mid-law thing:

If you don't have debt, great, go do your mid-law and love it. If you have debt (as in 150k+, which is where we start to reach the $2k/mo. repayment zone) and are making 80k/yr (random mid-lawish number. If you prefer 100k, use that instead), you're paying ~20k in taxes. You're then paying (assuming $2k/mo) ~30k in loans. This is now 50k. If you want a decent place to live, you're looking at 2k/mo (assuming an urban area, where most legal practices that are willing to pay 80-100k are going to be located; if you want an hour and a half commute or more to save some money on housing, move most, but perhaps not all, of your savings over to transportation costs), or another 30k/yr.

This leaves the average 80k/yr associate with 150k in debt at approximately 20k/yr of disposable income. Even assuming your job has benefits, this means car, food, clothing, utilities, etc. for the sweet, sweet tune of 1.8k/mo. Awesome. Totally worth the indentured servitude for the next decade or two paying off those loans. If you landed in that 100k range, don''t just add 20k to your total, because you've moved up tax brackets.

This is real math, people. It's not fiction, though it is an estimate. The point is, your mid-law existence is about the same as a first year public school teacher. Worth it? Perhaps for some. But if a lot of you kids really ask yourself if you want to be working with $20k/year after law school, you will easily answer in the negative. But, I know, YOU'RE special. YOU won't be one of the ones at the bottom. After all, why wouldn't your TTT be able to place you in a 160k job with your median GPA. Their brochure said 90% of kids were employed after graduation with a 135k income. Yo're at least median good, right?

Good luck.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by Veyron » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:42 am

GreenHeels wrote:Noone was saying the UVA story wasn't true. The reason it is hilarious is because the random, single instance of success against long odds shouldn't motivate others to take on the same challenge. It worked out for that kid; cool, great, wonderful. It. Doesn't. For. Most.

As to the mid-law thing:

If you don't have debt, great, go do your mid-law and love it. If you have debt (as in 150k+, which is where we start to reach the $2k/mo. repayment zone) and are making 80k/yr (random mid-lawish number. If you prefer 100k, use that instead), you're paying ~20k in taxes. You're then paying (assuming $2k/mo) ~30k in loans. This is now 50k. If you want a decent place to live, you're looking at 2k/mo (assuming an urban area, where most legal practices that are willing to pay 80-100k are going to be located; if you want an hour and a half commute or more to save some money on housing, move most, but perhaps not all, of your savings over to transportation costs), or another 30k/yr.

This leaves the average 80k/yr associate with 150k in debt at approximately 20k/yr of disposable income. Even assuming your job has benefits, this means car, food, clothing, utilities, etc. for the sweet, sweet tune of 1.8k/mo. Awesome. Totally worth the indentured servitude for the next decade or two paying off those loans. If you landed in that 100k range, don''t just add 20k to your total, because you've moved up tax brackets.

This is real math, people. It's not fiction, though it is an estimate. The point is, your mid-law existence is about the same as a first year public school teacher. Worth it? Perhaps for some. But if a lot of you kids really ask yourself if you want to be working with $20k/year after law school, you will easily answer in the negative. But, I know, YOU'RE special. YOU won't be one of the ones at the bottom. After all, why wouldn't your TTT be able to place you in a 160k job with your median GPA. Their brochure said 90% of kids were employed after graduation with a 135k income. Yo're at least median good, right?

Good luck.
Sometimes I feel bad for people who aren't from my state. I can get a perfectly nice apartment for 700k a month in an urban area [located within a 10 minute drive of the areas where the 80-100k firms are... or the BIGLAW firms for that matter]. That leaves me with 35k (assuming 80K all-in) a year in disposable income AFTER food, clothing, utilities, etc. + I get benefits. You know how great it would be to have 35k to play with. I could save 15-20k a year and still go out to bars with my friends, nice restaurants, cultural events, maybe even take a weekend trip to Central America every so often (which costs like 1000 bucks if you do it right). In addition, if I really needed to, IBR would let me pay just the interest at that income level, getting me an extra 5-7k leeway.

An 1800 billable hour requirement doesn't seem like indentured servitude to me, kids are billing 3k in NYC right now [not that I would mind doing that for 160k]. Seems like a pretty sweet deal, certainly much better than a first year public school teacher pulling down 30k total. Plus, I'll be practicing law which is, you know, what I want to do. Also, salaries go up.

G-d I can't believe that I wrote something so optimistic. Ok, here - the problem is that the north east is a bit more prestige whoreish and a bit less grades focused then my market, I would still have to land such a mid-law job.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by vanwinkle » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:09 am

Veyron wrote:I can get a perfectly nice apartment for 700k a month in an urban area
:shock: :shock: :shock:

What urban area is that, Central Park West?

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by Veyron » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:11 am

vanwinkle wrote:
Veyron wrote:I can get a perfectly nice apartment for 700k a month in an urban area
:shock: :shock: :shock:

What urban area is that, Central Park West?
Yes, very west so to speak.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by dooood » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:14 pm

-
Last edited by dooood on Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by TigerBeer » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:23 pm

dooood wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:You are overreacting. This would be like someone asking what law schools they could get into based on one section of the LSAT. We need the total score to give a meaningful answer.

Actually this is rather like all those threads where people ask based on practice LSAT scores. The only appropriate answer here is "find out what your GPA is and come back and we'll tell you."
Yeah dude just chill out a bit. I was freaking out just like you at this time last year (B-'s for my first two grades), and figured life was essentially over. Needless to say, I ended up doing fine in my other classes, and despite having a 3.21 (below median at my school) at the end of 1L year, ended up landing a job at a V15 firm. Point is, grades are important, however they will neither make nor break you when it comes to job time. Good interview skills can completely compensate for a few bad grades, however good grades will NEVER compensate for poor interview/social skills. My advice would be to do the best you can and understand that no grades mathematically eliminate you, even in this market.
This is a great accomplishment, and it makes me happy to hear a success story, but this means that you were probably incredibly reckless with your bids, no? It's imprudent for a median-ish T10'er to bid on V20 firms, encouraging anecdotes notwithstanding. Especially given that many top firms absolutely have gpa cutoffs beyond which hiring partners, no matter how much an interviewer gelled with a certain candidate, are unwilling to budge.

Did you have any 1L extracurricular or 1L summer job that you think was a difference-maker in getting the job?
Read the "biggest OCI mistakes" thread from a few months ago. For a median T10 student throwing a few bids on V20s may have been exactly the correct strategy.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by XxSpyKEx » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:55 pm

GreenHeels wrote:Noone was saying the UVA story wasn't true. The reason it is hilarious is because the random, single instance of success against long odds shouldn't motivate others to take on the same challenge. It worked out for that kid; cool, great, wonderful. It. Doesn't. For. Most.

As to the mid-law thing:

If you don't have debt, great, go do your mid-law and love it. If you have debt (as in 150k+, which is where we start to reach the $2k/mo. repayment zone) and are making 80k/yr (random mid-lawish number. If you prefer 100k, use that instead), you're paying ~20k in taxes. You're then paying (assuming $2k/mo) ~30k in loans. This is now 50k. If you want a decent place to live, you're looking at 2k/mo (assuming an urban area, where most legal practices that are willing to pay 80-100k are going to be located; if you want an hour and a half commute or more to save some money on housing, move most, but perhaps not all, of your savings over to transportation costs), or another 30k/yr.

This leaves the average 80k/yr associate with 150k in debt at approximately 20k/yr of disposable income. Even assuming your job has benefits, this means car, food, clothing, utilities, etc. for the sweet, sweet tune of 1.8k/mo. Awesome. Totally worth the indentured servitude for the next decade or two paying off those loans. If you landed in that 100k range, don''t just add 20k to your total, because you've moved up tax brackets.

This is real math, people. It's not fiction, though it is an estimate. The point is, your mid-law existence is about the same as a first year public school teacher. Worth it? Perhaps for some. But if a lot of you kids really ask yourself if you want to be working with $20k/year after law school, you will easily answer in the negative. But, I know, YOU'RE special. YOU won't be one of the ones at the bottom. After all, why wouldn't your TTT be able to place you in a 160k job with your median GPA. Their brochure said 90% of kids were employed after graduation with a 135k income. Yo're at least median good, right?

Good luck.
Actually that math forgets about social security, medicare, medicaid, etc. An $80k /year salary will put you closer to $53K /year in your hands if get hit with the same federal and state taxes, social security, medicare, and medicaid pay deductions as I did when I made ~$43k /year ($1,500-1,600 biweekly checks would typically leave me with just over $1,000 -1,100 on my check (and that didn’t include any form of retirement savings)). I haven’t really kept up with the law firm hiring thing, but the other year “midlaw” was just as competitive as biglaw, if not more competitive because there weren’t many “midlaw” jobs out there.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by uvahooo » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:57 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
GreenHeels wrote:Noone was saying the UVA story wasn't true. The reason it is hilarious is because the random, single instance of success against long odds shouldn't motivate others to take on the same challenge. It worked out for that kid; cool, great, wonderful. It. Doesn't. For. Most.

As to the mid-law thing:

If you don't have debt, great, go do your mid-law and love it. If you have debt (as in 150k+, which is where we start to reach the $2k/mo. repayment zone) and are making 80k/yr (random mid-lawish number. If you prefer 100k, use that instead), you're paying ~20k in taxes. You're then paying (assuming $2k/mo) ~30k in loans. This is now 50k. If you want a decent place to live, you're looking at 2k/mo (assuming an urban area, where most legal practices that are willing to pay 80-100k are going to be located; if you want an hour and a half commute or more to save some money on housing, move most, but perhaps not all, of your savings over to transportation costs), or another 30k/yr.

This leaves the average 80k/yr associate with 150k in debt at approximately 20k/yr of disposable income. Even assuming your job has benefits, this means car, food, clothing, utilities, etc. for the sweet, sweet tune of 1.8k/mo. Awesome. Totally worth the indentured servitude for the next decade or two paying off those loans. If you landed in that 100k range, don''t just add 20k to your total, because you've moved up tax brackets.

This is real math, people. It's not fiction, though it is an estimate. The point is, your mid-law existence is about the same as a first year public school teacher. Worth it? Perhaps for some. But if a lot of you kids really ask yourself if you want to be working with $20k/year after law school, you will easily answer in the negative. But, I know, YOU'RE special. YOU won't be one of the ones at the bottom. After all, why wouldn't your TTT be able to place you in a 160k job with your median GPA. Their brochure said 90% of kids were employed after graduation with a 135k income. Yo're at least median good, right?

Good luck.
Actually that math forgets about social security, medicare, medicaid, etc. An $80k /year salary will put you closer to $53K /year in your hands if get hit with the same federal and state taxes, social security, medicare, and medicaid pay deductions as I did when I made ~$43k /year ($1,500-1,600 biweekly checks would typically leave me with just over $1,000 -1,100 on my check (and that didn’t include any form of retirement savings)). I haven’t really kept up with the law firm hiring thing, but the other year “midlaw” was just as competitive as biglaw, if not more competitive because there weren’t many “midlaw” jobs out there.
THere is always working in TX.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by XxSpyKEx » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:02 pm

uvahooo wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
GreenHeels wrote:Noone was saying the UVA story wasn't true. The reason it is hilarious is because the random, single instance of success against long odds shouldn't motivate others to take on the same challenge. It worked out for that kid; cool, great, wonderful. It. Doesn't. For. Most.

As to the mid-law thing:

If you don't have debt, great, go do your mid-law and love it. If you have debt (as in 150k+, which is where we start to reach the $2k/mo. repayment zone) and are making 80k/yr (random mid-lawish number. If you prefer 100k, use that instead), you're paying ~20k in taxes. You're then paying (assuming $2k/mo) ~30k in loans. This is now 50k. If you want a decent place to live, you're looking at 2k/mo (assuming an urban area, where most legal practices that are willing to pay 80-100k are going to be located; if you want an hour and a half commute or more to save some money on housing, move most, but perhaps not all, of your savings over to transportation costs), or another 30k/yr.

This leaves the average 80k/yr associate with 150k in debt at approximately 20k/yr of disposable income. Even assuming your job has benefits, this means car, food, clothing, utilities, etc. for the sweet, sweet tune of 1.8k/mo. Awesome. Totally worth the indentured servitude for the next decade or two paying off those loans. If you landed in that 100k range, don''t just add 20k to your total, because you've moved up tax brackets.

This is real math, people. It's not fiction, though it is an estimate. The point is, your mid-law existence is about the same as a first year public school teacher. Worth it? Perhaps for some. But if a lot of you kids really ask yourself if you want to be working with $20k/year after law school, you will easily answer in the negative. But, I know, YOU'RE special. YOU won't be one of the ones at the bottom. After all, why wouldn't your TTT be able to place you in a 160k job with your median GPA. Their brochure said 90% of kids were employed after graduation with a 135k income. Yo're at least median good, right?

Good luck.
Actually that math forgets about social security, medicare, medicaid, etc. An $80k /year salary will put you closer to $53K /year in your hands if get hit with the same federal and state taxes, social security, medicare, and medicaid pay deductions as I did when I made ~$43k /year ($1,500-1,600 biweekly checks would typically leave me with just over $1,000 -1,100 on my check (and that didn’t include any form of retirement savings)). I haven’t really kept up with the law firm hiring thing, but the other year “midlaw” was just as competitive as biglaw, if not more competitive because there weren’t many “midlaw” jobs out there.
THere is always working in TX.
I’m envious of your texas people and your no state taxes… I recall a conversation with one of my friends and how she was trying to argue that the state makes up for it in tax on real estate. When I asked her how much real estate tax is on a $200k house, she said some number that was lower than taxes on a $200k house where I’m at. Lol.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by Anonymous User » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:19 pm

GreenHeels wrote:I can't believe the naivete. 1Ls posting about the job market and such.

33% of Harvard students didn't get anything out of OCI this year. Do you understand what that means? How shit things are? My favorite post was the one from UVA who came in below his median and "got 7 offers," ostensibly because he's so charming and baller in interviews. Anecdotal evidence ftw, apparently.

Trust me, if your grades suck (and believe me, B- sucks right now, if it ever didn't), you are going to have it rough. Period. t10, wherever. You'll get OCI interviews, because most schools use some kind of random selection process for interviews. Whether anything comes of them is straight blind luck. Your interview skills are not going to overcome grades, you're just going to make a connection with someone or not. And they will be a junior associate with no ability to shoe-horn you in or they will be the senior partner who gets whatever he wants. You cannot control or predict it.

The only things that are within your control? Grades and social skills. Outside of that, there's a certain amount of hustle that will could get you somewhere that others fail to reach. But grades and social skills. And they are no guarantee. The one guarantee? Shitty grades or social skills doom you.

So don't get anymore B-s.

Good luck,
This post is accurate. Anecdotally, I got a B- and B my 1L year at a t10 and landed biglaw, but I did have a couple As to balance them out.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by Unemployed » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:34 pm

rdt854 wrote:Yeah I'm sure it serves the same purpose. Personally, I think a transcript with a few A's and a few B's/B-'s looks better to firms then a transcript with all B+'s (that have the same GPA)... Although I could be biased
I fully support this theory. This is especially true if you school does not calculate GPA and/or provide rank. Many interviewers won't even recognize that the two transcripts represent the same GPA...
vanwinkle wrote:
Veyron wrote:I can get a perfectly nice apartment for 700k a month in an urban area
:shock: :shock: :shock:

What urban area is that, Central Park West?
For 700k a month, you can buy a perfectly nice apartment in the Dakota... every year.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:18 pm

OP here--as some predicted, I was overreacting. After the B in Contracts, I ended up with a B+ in Civ Pro, and an A Torts. I am so relieved.

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:44 pm

nevermind- already been said

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by Kohinoor » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:43 am

Anonymous User wrote:OP here--as some predicted, I was overreacting. After the B in Contracts, I ended up with a B+ in Civ Pro, and an A Torts. I am so relieved.
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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by 005618502 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:24 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
Veyron wrote:I can get a perfectly nice apartment for 700k a month in an urban area
:shock: :shock: :shock:

What urban area is that, Central Park West?
Haha I dont think he meant to put the K after. I think he meant 700 dollars a month. Obviously not 700,000 a month....

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by kaiser » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:25 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Veyron wrote:I can get a perfectly nice apartment for 700k a month in an urban area
:shock: :shock: :shock:

What urban area is that, Central Park West?
Haha I dont think he meant to put the K after. I think he meant 700 dollars a month. Obviously not 700,000 a month....
Thank you for pointing that out 9 months after the fact

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by 005618502 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:27 pm

Anonymous User wrote:OP here--as some predicted, I was overreacting. After the B in Contracts, I ended up with a B+ in Civ Pro, and an A Torts. I am so relieved.
Congrats!

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Re: Below Median at t10 school

Post by 005618502 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:27 pm

kaiser wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Veyron wrote:I can get a perfectly nice apartment for 700k a month in an urban area
:shock: :shock: :shock:

What urban area is that, Central Park West?
Haha I dont think he meant to put the K after. I think he meant 700 dollars a month. Obviously not 700,000 a month....
Thank you for pointing that out 9 months after the fact
Forgot I was using the search function when I bumped into this :) haha. My bad!

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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