TFA and Law School Forum

[mcat4life87]

SBL, you seem to have a pretty crappy attitude about teaching and about your students. How did you convince your TFA screeners that you were passionate about teaching?

[IAFG]

SBL, you seem to have a pretty crappy attitude about teaching and about your students. How did you convince your TFA screeners that you were passionate about teaching?

lol

[arism87]

SBL, you seem to have a pretty crappy attitude about teaching and about your students. How did you convince your TFA screeners that you were passionate about teaching?

Sad part is, he probably was

[20160810]

SBL, you seem to have a pretty crappy attitude about teaching and about your students. How did you convince your TFA screeners that you were passionate about teaching?

I was a lot more passionate before I discovered what a farce those 2 years would be. Also lying. There was definitely some lying.

I'd feel bad, but the lies I told (mainly "I'm super fired up about closing the achievement gap!") paled in comparison to the lies TFA recruiters told ("It will help you get into a top law school" "This is an elite and prestigious program" "This is worth 2 years you'll never get back" "Corps members are never physically assaulted by students." "Credible death threats? I've never heard of one of those made against a CM!" "Nobody gets their tires slashed by students, don't be silly!" etc.)

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad program. It's probably great for people who want to teach. I just think most people who think they want to teach (especially in a TFA context) come to discover QUICKLY that they should have just gone to law school.

And here's the kicker: As a program, TFA works. TFA teachers are almost universally better than the lifetime union folks who staff those sinking ships. But part of the reason it works is because so many TFA Corps Members are humorless, workaholic boners that I couldn't stand being stuck with for 2 years.

I could even see myself donating money to the program down the line; I just don't want to socialize with the majority of people I met there ever again.

[arism87]

But part of the reason it works is because so many TFA Corps Members are humorless, workaholic boners that I couldn't stand being stuck with for 2 years.

I could even see myself donating money to the program down the line; I just don't want to socialize with the majority of people I met there ever again.

So law students aren't humorless workaholic boners? *sigh of relief*

[20160810]

But part of the reason it works is because so many TFA Corps Members are humorless, workaholic boners that I couldn't stand being stuck with for 2 years.

I could even see myself donating money to the program down the line; I just don't want to socialize with the majority of people I met there ever again.

So law students aren't humorless workaholic boners? *sigh of relief*

No, no, law students are the second-worst group of people in the world.

But compared to rural region CMs, law students have social skills galore. Seriously.

[Anonymous User]

And here's the kicker: As a program, TFA works. TFA teachers are almost universally better than the lifetime union folks who staff those sinking ships. But part of the reason it works is because so many TFA Corps Members are humorless, workaholic boners that I couldn't stand being stuck with for 2 years.

Short-term, yes. But after going through it, I'm a bit skeptical. TFAers were almost universally better than other teachers, but the vast majority left after 2-3 years. A life-time teacher works, say, 30-35 years. That means there would need to be around 15 TFAers to replace a single teacher in the long run. Factor in the cost of training, the displacement of long-term teachers as a result... while TFA's numbers look good, I'm not sure the numbers tell the whole story.

Also, SBL, did your fellow CMs talk only about teaching? I couldn't believe how most people ONLY talked about teaching. Ever. I would always try to bring up other topics, anything--sports, personal life, the news--and ultimately every conversation would go back to teaching.

[20160810]

And here's the kicker: As a program, TFA works. TFA teachers are almost universally better than the lifetime union folks who staff those sinking ships. But part of the reason it works is because so many TFA Corps Members are humorless, workaholic boners that I couldn't stand being stuck with for 2 years.

Short-term, yes. But after going through it, I'm a bit skeptical. TFAers were almost universally better than other teachers, but the vast majority left after 2-3 years. A life-time teacher works, say, 30-35 years. That means there would need to be around 15 TFAers to replace a single teacher in the long run. Factor in the cost of training, the displacement of long-term teachers as a result... while TFA's numbers look good, I'm not sure the numbers tell the whole story.

Also, SBL, did your fellow CMs talk only about teaching? I couldn't believe how most people ONLY talked about teaching. Ever. I would always try to bring up other topics, anything--sports, personal life, the news--and ultimately every conversation would go back to teaching.

Pretty much.

Also, we don't really need to "replace" every teacher out there. As long as there's a constant stream of fresh meat cycling in and out, we're good. Add to that the third or so (they say half, but I'm thinking third is better for 5+ years) who stay working in ed, and I really do think it will be a lasting movement.

Already TFA has the unions scared witless, which is good.

[OkieGirl]

TFA makes law school seem like undergrad.

SBL- stop being so cynical. If YOU didn't make a difference, that is your problem. Don't spread your negative opinion to other people. Change can happen, you just have to put in the work to make it happen.

[Anonymous User]

TFA makes law school seem like undergrad.

SBL- stop being so cynical. If YOU didn't make a difference, that is your problem. Don't spread your negative opinion to other people. Change can happen, you just have to put in the work to make it happen.

Did you do TFA?

[OkieGirl]

Yep. Houston '08. Just finished in May.

[IAFG]

TFA makes law school seem like undergrad.

SBL- stop being so cynical. If YOU didn't make a difference, that is your problem. Don't spread your negative opinion to other people. Change can happen, you just have to put in the work to make it happen.

can you make change happen? yeah. can you do it on a two-year stopover on your way to grad school? lol no

[20160810]

Yep. Houston '08. Just finished in May.

Houston is probably one of the best-run corps and some of the nicest people I knew in TFA were Houston 07.

That said, people like you are one of the reasons I hate the organization so much. I put in my 2 years. I even made significant muthafuckin gains (once). But every time I tried to discuss the negative aspects of TFA (and there were a lot, because I had a really shitty time, and almost every day I hated going to work) people like you just said it was my fault for not being sufficiently dedicated.

There are a shitload of people who felt just as pissed and disaffected as me, in no small part because we were LIED to, repeatedly, blatantly by RDs and induced to apply for the program. It's actually OK to dislike TFA because it's not fun - my thinking teaching sucked and that most of my students were assholes (true, by the way) has NOTHING to do with how good I was at the job.

[OkieGirl]

Yep. Houston '08. Just finished in May.

Houston is probably one of the best-run corps and some of the nicest people I knew in TFA were Houston 07.

That said, people like you are one of the reasons I hate the organization so much. I put in my 2 years. I even made significant muthafuckin gains (once). But every time I tried to discuss the negative aspects of TFA (and there were a lot, because I had a really shitty time, and almost every day I hated going to work) people like you just said it was my fault for not being sufficiently dedicated.

There are a shitload of people who felt just as pissed and disaffected as me, in no small part because we were LIED to, repeatedly, blatantly by RDs and induced to apply for the program. It's actually OK to dislike TFA because it's not fun - my thinking teaching sucked and that most of my students were assholes (true, by the way) has NOTHING to do with how good I was at the job.

So my placement wasn't challenging because the region was well organized? Wrong. What did you expect going into the experience? Cute little children who actually care about their education and pleasing their teacher? No. Suck it up. Stop crying and complaining about how bad your students were. People like you make me glad that TFA did allow us to sit around and have pity-parties about our experiences.

[20160810]

Yep. Houston '08. Just finished in May.

Houston is probably one of the best-run corps and some of the nicest people I knew in TFA were Houston 07.

That said, people like you are one of the reasons I hate the organization so much. I put in my 2 years. I even made significant muthafuckin gains (once). But every time I tried to discuss the negative aspects of TFA (and there were a lot, because I had a really shitty time, and almost every day I hated going to work) people like you just said it was my fault for not being sufficiently dedicated.

There are a shitload of people who felt just as pissed and disaffected as me, in no small part because we were LIED to, repeatedly, blatantly by RDs and induced to apply for the program. It's actually OK to dislike TFA because it's not fun - my thinking teaching sucked and that most of my students were assholes (true, by the way) has NOTHING to do with how good I was at the job.

So my placement wasn't challenging because the region was well organized? Wrong. What did you expect going into the experience? Cute little children who actually care about their education and pleasing their teacher? No. Suck it up. Stop crying and complaining about how bad your students were. People like you make me glad that TFA did allow us to sit around and have pity-parties about our experiences.

When did I suggest that your placement wasn't challenging? Usually when people use the phrase "That said," it means they're CHANGING topics. I was more just saying that I know a lot of cool people who did TFA in Houston.

Also guess what, people are allowed to not like the experience. Sort of like people are allowed not to like mint chip ice cream. Sort of like how people are allowed not to like being sodomized. It's a subjective reaction to an experience. I'm entitled to mine, and you're entitled to yours, but - and here's the kicker - our opinions are both equally valid. I suffered through 2 years of this shit, and I earned the right to express this opinion, thanks. I don't begrudge you yours, but jesus, let me reflect on my own experiences the way I damn well please.

Now are you ready to have your mind completely fucking blown? Stay tuned, sweetheart: The fact that I didn't like TFA doesn't mean I wasn't good at teaching. It doesn't mean I "did it wrong." It just means that, for whatever reason, getting up to go to that job every day made me really, really unhappy. And I'm entitled to that.

Oh, and just for good measure, let's play a game called "Uncomfortable Truths." TFA probably works, but do you know why it does? Because it takes (mostly) smart people with (theoretically) high earning potential and it tricks them into temporarily doing a shit job usually reserved for people who simply don't have the wherewithal to go into another profession and make the big bucks (and before you point out that there are a lot of amazing career teachers, go back and re-read the word "usually.")

I know, I know, I'm cynical, I'm mean, I'm just in it for the money, I just didn't understand how wonderful it is when children's eyes light up because they mastered an objective. But are you ready for the best part? As much as you like teaching: You're posting on a board for law school students right now. You're leaving too, and doing the exact same fucking thing I did. So save the sanctimonious bullshit for someone who's buying it, because you're no better than I am. I'm just the one who's being honest about why I left that profession.

[nealric]

Yep. Houston '08. Just finished in May.

Houston is probably one of the best-run corps and some of the nicest people I knew in TFA were Houston 07.

That said, people like you are one of the reasons I hate the organization so much. I put in my 2 years. I even made significant muthafuckin gains (once). But every time I tried to discuss the negative aspects of TFA (and there were a lot, because I had a really shitty time, and almost every day I hated going to work) people like you just said it was my fault for not being sufficiently dedicated.

There are a shitload of people who felt just as pissed and disaffected as me, in no small part because we were LIED to, repeatedly, blatantly by RDs and induced to apply for the program. It's actually OK to dislike TFA because it's not fun - my thinking teaching sucked and that most of my students were assholes (true, by the way) has NOTHING to do with how good I was at the job.

So my placement wasn't challenging because the region was well organized? Wrong. What did you expect going into the experience? Cute little children who actually care about their education and pleasing their teacher? No. Suck it up. Stop crying and complaining about how bad your students were. People like you make me glad that TFA did allow us to sit around and have pity-parties about our experiences.

You are just reinforcing his point there.

[arism87]

(Deleted)

...This it at what is considered a "good" school here. Try telling me it's easy.

Please don't quote this I'm going to remove it, just wanted to throw that out there. Love teaching or not, it's not hard to imagine why ANYONE would want to explore other options-- no matter what kind of person he/she is.

You can criticize or support TFA, but I hate seeing CMs knock each other.

[20160810]

Excellent post. I think we can criticize AND support TFA. That's kind of my point - the fact that I had a bad time doesn't mean it's a bad choice for everyone, it just means it was a bad choice for me. But I think there's an institutional culture that prevents people from airing out their grievances or--god forbid--just kinda coming to the conclusion that teaching isn't their thing. This is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to TFA CMs and alums talking to "outsiders" about their experience. I think anyone considering devoting 2 years of their lives to this program would do well to hear a multiplicity of opinions, and he shouldn't be told that the people who didn't enjoy it only felt that way because they somehow did it wrong or were insufficiently motivated.

[OkieGirl]

Yep. Houston '08. Just finished in May.

Houston is probably one of the best-run corps and some of the nicest people I knew in TFA were Houston 07.

That said, people like you are one of the reasons I hate the organization so much. I put in my 2 years. I even made significant muthafuckin gains (once). But every time I tried to discuss the negative aspects of TFA (and there were a lot, because I had a really shitty time, and almost every day I hated going to work) people like you just said it was my fault for not being sufficiently dedicated.

There are a shitload of people who felt just as pissed and disaffected as me, in no small part because we were LIED to, repeatedly, blatantly by RDs and induced to apply for the program. It's actually OK to dislike TFA because it's not fun - my thinking teaching sucked and that most of my students were assholes (true, by the way) has NOTHING to do with how good I was at the job.

So my placement wasn't challenging because the region was well organized? Wrong. What did you expect going into the experience? Cute little children who actually care about their education and pleasing their teacher? No. Suck it up. Stop crying and complaining about how bad your students were. People like you make me glad that TFA did allow us to sit around and have pity-parties about our experiences.

When did I suggest that your placement wasn't challenging? Usually when people use the phrase "That said," it means they're CHANGING topics. I was more just saying that I know a lot of cool people who did TFA in Houston.

Also guess what, people are allowed to not like the experience. Sort of like people are allowed not to like mint chip ice cream. Sort of like how people are allowed not to like being sodomized. It's a subjective reaction to an experience. I'm entitled to mine, and you're entitled to yours, but - and here's the kicker - our opinions are both equally valid. I suffered through 2 years of this shit, and I earned the right to express this opinion, thanks. I don't begrudge you yours, but jesus, let me reflect on my own experiences the way I damn well please.

Now are you ready to have your mind completely fucking blown? Stay tuned, sweetheart: The fact that I didn't like TFA doesn't mean I wasn't good at teaching. It doesn't mean I "did it wrong." It just means that, for whatever reason, getting up to go to that job every day made me really, really unhappy. And I'm entitled to that.

Oh, and just for good measure, let's play a game called "Uncomfortable Truths." TFA probably works, but do you know why it does? Because it takes (mostly) smart people with (theoretically) high earning potential and it tricks them into temporarily doing a shit job usually reserved for people who simply don't have the wherewithal to go into another profession and make the big bucks (and before you point out that there are a lot of amazing career teachers, go back and re-read the word "usually.")

I know, I know, I'm cynical, I'm mean, I'm just in it for the money, I just didn't understand how wonderful it is when children's eyes light up because they mastered an objective. But are you ready for the best part? As much as you like teaching: You're posting on a board for law school students right now. You're leaving too, and doing the exact same fucking thing I did. So save the sanctimonious bullshit for someone who's buying it, because you're no better than I am. I'm just the one who's being honest about why I left that profession.

WOW. Freak out. How was me calling you cynical not allowing you to express an opinion? Am I putting a label on your opinion? Totes. Was I really trying to get the point across that you can make a difference in two years regardless of what (some) former CMs say? Totes too. Did I say there was anything wrong with leaving after two years? Sure didn't.

ps- my bad if I took "Houston is probably one of the best-run corps" to mean something that you didn't.

[arism87]

How was me calling you cynical not allowing you to express an opinion?

I'm pretty sure this is you trying to tell him not to express his opinion:

If YOU didn't make a difference, that is your problem. Don't spread your negative opinion to other people. Change can happen, you just have to put in the work to make it happen.

[OkieGirl]

Haha. Oops.

[arism87]

Haha. Oops.

[HITeacher2]

You will not "reach" kids. You will not inspire them. You will not change lives. You will not turn a kid away from gangs and towards books. You will mainly just grade papers, do paperwork for your administration and get called a [homophobic language redacted] a lot by illiterate children. If this does not discourage you (btw, don't start thinking "Well MY experience will be different!" - we all thought that, yours won't be different, it will be shitty), then do TFA.

That's funny, maybe it was just because I taught in a "good" region, but I genuinely felt like I did reach kids and turn their lives around. And I wasn't the only one, I would say the vast majority of CMs at the school I taught at, and the majority of CMs in the region I was in felt the same way. There's a difference between sharing your own experience "eg: I did not reach kids, I just graded papers and got called a [homophobic language redacted] all day and now I'm bitter" and telling someone else they'll have the same experience. You don't speak for me and you don't speak for anyone else but yourself.

The lying you did to get into TFA came back and bit you in the ass. If the organization knew what kind of person you really were, you wouldn't have gotten in and it would have turned out better for you, for TFA, and most importantly for the kids you taught. This just underscores how important it is to be honest when applying for jobs. If you don't want to sacrifice your work/life balance and work 100 hours a week so you can make $160k a year, you shouldn't say you do in the BigLaw or IBanking interview. Similarly, if you aren't 100% passionate about closing the achievement gap and don't want to make the sacrifice to do it in your classroom, don't say you are in the TFA interview. You don't sign up for a "cushy" job at TFA, you sign up to change kids lives because it's the right thing to do - you have to believe that, or just like SBL you'll just end up miserable and lash out at other people because of your own lack of confidence.

There are plenty of people who are willing to make the sacrifices necessary for those "elite" jobs in the "elite' firms, be they TFA, Goldman Sachs, Wachtell or McKinsey. You know because you've met them, they made you feel sorry about yourself, and now you lash out telling people at the door that they'll "never make it." To anybody considering lying during the interview process for these jobs, know that you're going to be miserable when they're your peers and you just can't cut it. The people who speak honestly during interviews are the people who end up happy in their careers.

That said, OP, if you have to come to a forum and ask anonymously whether you should do TFA, you really shouldn't be doing TFA. How can one go to an interview and talk for hours about how committed they are to the mission of closing the achievement gap and how unfair it is that kids don't all have access to an excellent education, then not even have enough confidence to say yes without asking an online forum of strangers. Say no and save the students you would have taught two years of of a miserable teacher.

[Anonymous User]

You will not "reach" kids. You will not inspire them. You will not change lives. You will not turn a kid away from gangs and towards books. You will mainly just grade papers, do paperwork for your administration and get called a [homophobic language redacted] a lot by illiterate children. If this does not discourage you (btw, don't start thinking "Well MY experience will be different!" - we all thought that, yours won't be different, it will be shitty), then do TFA.

That's funny, maybe it was just because I taught in a "good" region, but I genuinely felt like I did reach kids and turn their lives around. And I wasn't the only one, I would say the vast majority of CMs at the school I taught at, and the majority of CMs in the region I was in felt the same way. There's a difference between sharing your own experience "eg: I did not reach kids, I just graded papers and got called a [homophobic language redacted] all day and now I'm bitter" and telling someone else they'll have the same experience. You don't speak for me and you don't speak for anyone else but yourself.

The lying you did to get into TFA came back and bit you in the ass. If the organization knew what kind of person you really were, you wouldn't have gotten in and it would have turned out better for you, for TFA, and most importantly for the kids you taught. This just underscores how important it is to be honest when applying for jobs. If you don't want to sacrifice your work/life balance and work 100 hours a week so you can make $160k a year, you shouldn't say you do in the BigLaw or IBanking interview. Just like SBL you'll just end up miserable and lash out at other people because of your own lack of confidence. There are plenty of people who are willing to make those sacrifice that would do much better in those "elite" jobs at those "elite" firms, be they TFA, Goldman Sachs, Wachtell or McKinsey.

That said, OP, if you have to come to a forum and ask anonymously whether you should do TFA, you really shouldn't be doing TFA. How can one go to an interview and talk for hours about how committed they are to the mission of closing the achievement gap and how unfair it is that kids don't all have access to an excellent education, then not even have enough confidence to say yes without asking an online forum of strangers. Say no and save the students you would have taught two years of of a miserable teacher.

I'm only anonymous b/c law schools do look at this site and don't want to get rejected b/c they know i'll defer them. I am asking here, in a forum full of random people, because I want to hear what other people think of TFA and what their experiences have been, and my original question, which you may not have understood, or maybe i phrased it wrong... what I'm trying to figure out is if I should defer law school and do tfa, or just reject every law school and apply later on after I'm done with TFA, not if I should do TFA or not. Thanks for your input though.

Edit: Also I'm being smart and doing some research instead of jumping into something without knowing what it is. Don't know why you hatin HITeacher

[worldtraveler]

You will not "reach" kids. You will not inspire them. You will not change lives. You will not turn a kid away from gangs and towards books. You will mainly just grade papers, do paperwork for your administration and get called a [homophobic language redacted] a lot by illiterate children. If this does not discourage you (btw, don't start thinking "Well MY experience will be different!" - we all thought that, yours won't be different, it will be shitty), then do TFA.

That's funny, maybe it was just because I taught in a "good" region, but I genuinely felt like I did reach kids and turn their lives around. And I wasn't the only one, I would say the vast majority of CMs at the school I taught at, and the majority of CMs in the region I was in felt the same way. There's a difference between sharing your own experience "eg: I did not reach kids, I just graded papers and got called a [homophobic language redacted] all day and now I'm bitter" and telling someone else they'll have the same experience. You don't speak for me and you don't speak for anyone else but yourself.

The lying you did to get into TFA came back and bit you in the ass. If the organization knew what kind of person you really were, you wouldn't have gotten in and it would have turned out better for you, for TFA, and most importantly for the kids you taught. This just underscores how important it is to be honest when applying for jobs. If you don't want to sacrifice your work/life balance and work 100 hours a week so you can make $160k a year, you shouldn't say you do in the BigLaw or IBanking interview. Similarly, if you aren't 100% passionate about closing the achievement gap and don't want to make the sacrifice to do it in your classroom, don't say you are in the TFA interview. You don't sign up for a "cushy" job at TFA, you sign up to change kids lives because it's the right thing to do - you have to believe that, or just like SBL you'll just end up miserable and lash out at other people because of your own lack of confidence.

There are plenty of people who are willing to make the sacrifices necessary for those "elite" jobs in the "elite' firms, be they TFA, Goldman Sachs, Wachtell or McKinsey. You know because you've met them, they made you feel sorry about yourself, and now you lash out telling people at the door that they'll "never make it." To anybody considering lying during the interview process for these jobs, know that you're going to be miserable when they're your peers and you just can't cut it. The people who speak honestly during interviews are the people who end up happy in their careers.

That said, OP, if you have to come to a forum and ask anonymously whether you should do TFA, you really shouldn't be doing TFA. How can one go to an interview and talk for hours about how committed they are to the mission of closing the achievement gap and how unfair it is that kids don't all have access to an excellent education, then not even have enough confidence to say yes without asking an online forum of strangers. Say no and save the students you would have taught two years of of a miserable teacher.

It sounds like you're bashing somebody for trying to seek out information. How is asking for more information on a message board a negative thing? It sounds like you want someone to say yes immediately, without thinking through everything. Naive teachers aren't exactly effective, either. Part of the process of applying for a job is finding out exactly what it entails and researching it outside of what the employer itself tells you. Given the amount of law students who have done TFA, this is a fairly solid place to come and look for advice and varied viewpoints. Maybe the OP doesn't know anyone who did it, and anyone TFA refers him/her to talk to would obviously have had a positive experience. What is your problem with asking for information?