Prestigious PI? Forum

[itsirtou]

Well, we had our "let's talk about what classes to sign up for" meeting yesterday and now I think I'm in full-blown panic mode.

I knew going into law school that prestigious PI could be more difficult to get into than firm jobs, but I figured that going to a T10 and working really hard, I could break in. But I'm starting to get really worried. I came to law school (and maybe this is a dumb thing to say?) because I really want to do BIG CHANGE law. I think I heard it called impact litigation? Anyway, that's what I really want to do. Social change litigation, civil rights law, and things like that.

However, I'm starting to get...concerned that that area doesn't really exist.

I know that the ACLU exists, and I would do so many horrible things if I could get a job there. But from what I've heard here, not even my T10 status can get me there -- its really HYS, and CCN if they're lucky.

That's insanely depressing, but it is what it is. So does the field I want to work in even exist? If I could imagine my dream job, I would really want to work on gay and lesbian civil rights, or honestly just civil rights on a big scale. Maybe that doesn't exist. If it doesn't, I feel like I need to know NOW so I can change my plans.

I know appellant litigation exists at firms...is that what I should be looking at?

Any advice is appreciated a hell of a lot, especially if I'm being a naive idiot.

[vanwinkle]

Moved this to Legal Employment, where you may get more helpful answers thanks to the anon feature.

Civil rights litigation appears to be an extremely narrow field. There are two separate issues here:

1) Few job openings which usually go to folks at the top. Between the value of your credentials and the network you have access to, the T6 schools have significant advantages here. However, it's still entirely possible to make in-roads without that.

2) This is probably the more important point: Almost no civil rights organizations take fresh law grads. The ACLU wants experienced attorneys; GLAAD wants experienced attorneys; minority legal defense funds want experienced attorneys; and so on and so forth. They're organizations with limited funds that don't want to spend the money to train you, especially when there are so many experienced attorneys willing to take such jobs. There are a few places that do (See, e.g., DOJ Civil Rights Division) but because those opportunities are so rare, everybody wants them.

As a fresh grad you're going to have to do something to get experience, even if it's not exactly what you want to do right away. One good place to make a difference and get experience as a fresh law grad is a public defender's office; you'll be gaining courtroom experience while doing clearly valuable public service work. Public defense is really a kind of civil rights work since you're constantly standing up for the rights of the defendants at all stages of their arrest and trial, not just on their guilt or innocence, and it's possibly the hardest and most challenging place to do so. I just spoke last week to a practicing attorney at the ACLU of California and he started out as a public defender.

Alternatively, you can go work for a law firm and get training and experience there while you pay off your loans, and try to do pro bono work at organizations that you'd want to work at someday so you can build your own network there for when they have openings again.

(Oh, and for that matter, make sure you're doing lots of pro bono work and building connections now. The work you do even as a 1L can open doors for future internships which can open doors to later things down the road.)

Even if you don't get what you want right away, you can still get what you want down the road if you keep working toward it. Things like what you want are nearly impossible to get right away, even for folks at the T6 schools, but that doesn't mean they're impossible to get.

[itsirtou]

Thank you -- that does help. It's not the worst I could hear, even if it does suck a bit that I'll have to wait for what I really want (but everyone has to, I guess). As for experience and not being a fresh law grad, how much do you think clerking first would help? Or would I really still need to go into something first to get more experience beyond clerking experience?

Moved this to Legal Employment, where you may get more helpful answers thanks to the anon feature.

Civil rights litigation appears to be an extremely narrow field. There are two separate issues here:

1) Few job openings which usually go to folks at the top. Between the value of your credentials and the network you have access to, the T6 schools have significant advantages here. However, it's still entirely possible to make in-roads without that.

2) This is probably the more important point: Almost no civil rights organizations take fresh law grads. The ACLU wants experienced attorneys; GLAAD wants experienced attorneys; minority legal defense funds want experienced attorneys; and so on and so forth. They're organizations with limited funds that don't want to spend the money to train you, especially when there are so many experienced attorneys willing to take such jobs. There are a few places that do (See, e.g., DOJ Civil Rights Division) but because those opportunities are so rare, everybody wants them.

As a fresh grad you're going to have to do something to get experience, even if it's not exactly what you want to do right away. One good place to make a difference and get experience as a fresh law grad is a public defender's office; you'll be gaining courtroom experience while doing clearly valuable public service work. Public defense is really a kind of civil rights work since you're constantly standing up for the rights of the defendants at all stages of their arrest and trial, not just on their guilt or innocence, and it's possibly the hardest and most challenging place to do so. I just spoke last week to a practicing attorney at the ACLU of California and he started out as a public defender.

Alternatively, you can go work for a law firm and get training and experience there while you pay off your loans, and try to do pro bono work at organizations that you'd want to work at someday so you can build your own network there for when they have openings again.

(Oh, and for that matter, make sure you're doing lots of pro bono work and building connections now. The work you do even as a 1L can open doors for future internships which can open doors to later things down the road.)

Even if you don't get what you want right away, you can still get what you want down the road if you keep working toward it. Things like what you want are nearly impossible to get right away, even for folks at the T6 schools, but that doesn't mean they're impossible to get.

[vanwinkle]

Thank you -- that does help. It's not the worst I could hear, even if it does suck a bit that I'll have to wait for what I really want (but everyone has to, I guess). As for experience and not being a fresh law grad, how much do you think clerking first would help? Or would I really still need to go into something first to get more experience beyond clerking experience?

What I've learned about clerking:

1) A year of clerking is often treated as a year of work experience, since you're gaining real-world research and writing experience.

2) Depending on where you clerk, it could be valuable on your resume in a way that no other work experience can accomplish. Federal clerkships especially are very highly regarded by any number of employers, especially civil rights litigators in particular since they'll often be dealing with issues of federal constitutional law and having insight into how federal judges handle such cases can be enormously valuable experience. Even if you need to get additional experience between the clerkship and your dream job, it'll still help you get your dream job down the road.

3) You might still need to go do something else first, but a clerkship would help you go do that something else too. Many law firms not only are happy to take on people with federal clerkships but will pay an automatic $50,000 bonus to people who go work there at the end of their clerkship. While the legal hiring market sucks right now, the number of federal clerks (and clerks at state supreme courts, which can also be valuable in the most prominent states) is constrained, meaning people who do those clerkships are still relatively rare and valuable.

All of these things make clerkships highly competitive, and even at a T10 you need really good grades, but they're achievable. Everyone I have ever spoken to about clerking has always responded with something along the lines of, "Clerk. There is so much to gain to and no reason not to." They could have a more nuanced discussion about it, but for 98% of people that's still the correct answer after a longer discussion.

[vicuna]

Would prospective law students interested in PI shut out at CCN be better off retaking and reapplying?

[Anonymous User]

Would prospective law students interested in PI shut out at CCN be better off retaking and reapplying?

Dude, you simply can't go into law school with that kind of narrow focus. There are so few jobs, and so few spots at the top, that it's an insane gamble to spend all that money in the hopes of landing a BIG_PI job. I'm not saying that you should go to T14 instead of waiting for CCN; I'm saying that unless you're independently wealthy, you shouldn't go to law school at all if your career focus is so defined.

[Bankhead]

I know a girl at a T30 who got ACLU internship 2L summer. She is top 5%, law review.

[vamedic03]

Well, we had our "let's talk about what classes to sign up for" meeting yesterday and now I think I'm in full-blown panic mode.

I knew going into law school that prestigious PI could be more difficult to get into than firm jobs, but I figured that going to a T10 and working really hard, I could break in. But I'm starting to get really worried. I came to law school (and maybe this is a dumb thing to say?) because I really want to do BIG CHANGE law. I think I heard it called impact litigation? Anyway, that's what I really want to do. Social change litigation, civil rights law, and things like that.

However, I'm starting to get...concerned that that area doesn't really exist.

I know that the ACLU exists, and I would do so many horrible things if I could get a job there. But from what I've heard here, not even my T10 status can get me there -- its really HYS, and CCN if they're lucky.

That's insanely depressing, but it is what it is. So does the field I want to work in even exist? If I could imagine my dream job, I would really want to work on gay and lesbian civil rights, or honestly just civil rights on a big scale. Maybe that doesn't exist. If it doesn't, I feel like I need to know NOW so I can change my plans.

I know appellant litigation exists at firms...is that what I should be looking at?

Any advice is appreciated a hell of a lot, especially if I'm being a naive idiot.

I'm assuming you're a 1L - if you want to do high end PI work - focus on getting good grades. I can tell you that the top of the class at MVP has essentially the same options as the top of the class at a T-6.

MVP places people every year into Skadden fellowships, COA clerkships, prestigious D.Ct. clerkships, etc.

And yes, impact litigation does exist - and there are a lot of organizations who do it that you may never have heard of. (NYLAG for example has an affirmative litigation division)

[underdawg]

firm appellate lit is not what you want at all. sometimes they do big time pro bono, but i think david boies was criticized by others for hogging the prop 8 case. if that's true, then you're not getting shit to do as a young associate. so you'd got to figure that some glam ass impact litigation will be hoarded by the uber-elite in biglaw who want the pub, like boies. mostly firms do the same stuff they normally do except at the appellate level. if clients will pay, biglaw will come. your odds of defending an oil company at the appellate level are higher than doing civil rights do-goodery at a firm.

keep in mind that also that chi sends like 1-2 ppl/yr to PI jobs. so i'd really think that HYSCN have a big leg up here. HYS for obvious reasons, and CN because they are CCN - chicago, and also a lot of that stuff must happen in NYC. i'd also think that DC-centric schools will be better for networking (UVA, G-town) relative to their rank. this part is all idle blathering because i don't feel like reading

[Borhas]

there's something about the idea of "Prestigious" PI that irks me

oh I want to help my community but only if its oh so Prestigious

[Tanicius]

there's something about the idea of "Prestigious" PI that irks me

oh I want to help my community but only if its oh so Prestigious

Agreed.

Look, if you have trouble getting a job at the top right away, duke it out in the trenches with everyone else for a few years. It's not pretty work, but that's because these problems are very real and very challenging. If you're good at what you do, it really won't matter what school you went to at that point.

[vanwinkle]

there's something about the idea of "Prestigious" PI that irks me

oh I want to help my community but only if its oh so Prestigious

Agreed.

Look, if you have trouble getting a job at the top right away, duke it out in the trenches with everyone else for a few years. It's not pretty work, but that's because these problems are very real and very challenging. If you're good at what you do, it really won't matter what school you went to at that point.

An important point is that most people who are in "prestigious" PI positions had to go through the trenches. They did their time, put in their work, and earned their current spot. A couple weeks ago I got to talk to a guy working for the ACLU of California, he started out as a public defender and put in several years there before moving to impact litigation.

Especially ITE, when there are so many experienced attorneys filling up job slots that used to be left to new grads, you can't be too picky about your first job. Gaining legal experience of any sort is an important first step.

[Anonymous User]

What sort of 2L experience would you need to get a public defender job after graduation?

[Tanicius]

What sort of 2L experience would you need to get a public defender job after graduation?

Any kind of trial competition or clinic where you spend time in a courtroom. Exposure and experience are much more useful to a PD's office than high grades or law review. Federal level stuff might want more prestige, but if you're talking about a bustling state PD office, they want talent, not pedigree.

[Borhas]

An important point is that most people who are in "prestigious" PI positions had to go through the trenches. .

lol. bullshit.

I bet they love to say that, spending a summer at a PD office and then 'slugging' it out through through a federal clerkship so that you can work for the ACLU is not "going through the trenches"

yeah sure, ITE they may spend a couple years doing PD work AFTER their clerkship (the horror!) but that's oh so unprestigious

but yeah, they'll get their ACLU (or maybe a little less prestigious job) and then feel the smug warmth of that "going through the trenches" label that only a job with awesome exit options, loan forgiveness, and PI-cred could provide. All the benefits, none of the burdens...

there's nothing wrong with any of that per se, except for the false pretenses and feigned humanitarianism bits.

Let's be real, that's all I'm saying.

[vamedic03]

An important point is that most people who are in "prestigious" PI positions had to go through the trenches. .

lol. bullshit.

I bet they love to say that, spending a summer at a PD office and then 'slugging' it out through through a federal clerkship so that you can work for the ACLU is not "going through the trenches"

yeah sure, ITE they may spend a couple years doing PD work AFTER their clerkship (the horror!) but that's oh so unprestigious

but yeah, they'll get their ACLU (or maybe a little less prestigious job) and then feel the smug warmth of that "going through the trenches" label that only a job with awesome exit options, loan forgiveness, and PI-cred could provide. All the benefits, none of the burdens...

there's nothing wrong with any of that per se, except for the false pretenses and feigned humanitarianism bits.

Let's be real, that's all I'm saying.

So you want the best and brightest to ignore PI and just go for BigLaw or BigGov?

[Borhas]

An important point is that most people who are in "prestigious" PI positions had to go through the trenches. .

lol. bullshit.

I bet they love to say that, spending a summer at a PD office and then 'slugging' it out through through a federal clerkship so that you can work for the ACLU is not "going through the trenches"

yeah sure, ITE they may spend a couple years doing PD work AFTER their clerkship (the horror!) but that's oh so unprestigious

but yeah, they'll get their ACLU (or maybe a little less prestigious job) and then feel the smug warmth of that "going through the trenches" label that only a job with awesome exit options, loan forgiveness, and PI-cred could provide. All the benefits, none of the burdens...

there's nothing wrong with any of that per se, except for the false pretenses and feigned humanitarianism bits.

Let's be real, that's all I'm saying.

So you want the best and brightest to ignore PI and just go for BigLaw or BigGov?

No, not really.

"let's be real"=don't fool anyone, least of all yourself

there's a tremendous need for the "best and brightest" to fulfill their role in an honest and socially beneficial way

but, that is not about prestige, it's not about money. There's absolutely nothing wrong with Big Law in an objective sense. We need good people in EVERY role. Law firms fulfill an important role, we need skilled, honest lawyers at all levels of the legal profession, whether it's BigLaw or PI.

What I'm saying is, if you want to help your community great. Do it. Why chase "prestige?" That's even more empty than the monetary benefits of "Big"Law. At least with Big Law you have money to help the people around you. You have to ask yourself: do you want to be a good person, or do you want to fool yourself into being a good person?

It's one thing to say "my skills are best suited for complex legal problems" but it's a whole different thing to prestige whore. One is fulfilling your responsibilities in society, the other is pretending that you are.

[motiontodismiss]

An important point is that most people who are in "prestigious" PI positions had to go through the trenches. .

lol. bullshit.

I bet they love to say that, spending a summer at a PD office and then 'slugging' it out through through a federal clerkship so that you can work for the ACLU is not "going through the trenches"

yeah sure, ITE they may spend a couple years doing PD work AFTER their clerkship (the horror!) but that's oh so unprestigious

but yeah, they'll get their ACLU (or maybe a little less prestigious job) and then feel the smug warmth of that "going through the trenches" label that only a job with awesome exit options, loan forgiveness, and PI-cred could provide. All the benefits, none of the burdens...

there's nothing wrong with any of that per se, except for the false pretenses and feigned humanitarianism bits.

Let's be real, that's all I'm saying.

I don't know, federal PD work seems pretty prestigious....I met a PD (state) last year during my internship who graduated from Stanford, summered for Skadden and the joined the federal PD's office.

[vanwinkle]

An important point is that most people who are in "prestigious" PI positions had to go through the trenches.

lol. bullshit.

I bet they love to say that, spending a summer at a PD office and then 'slugging' it out through through a federal clerkship so that you can work for the ACLU is not "going through the trenches"

yeah sure, ITE they may spend a couple years doing PD work AFTER their clerkship (the horror!) but that's oh so unprestigious

WTF is this? The guy I was referring to had worked for a PD's office for 6 years before he got his job with the ACLU, and he's been there for a while. If you can't do the math, that means he had to do that pre-ITE. That's how it goes for a lot of people. The same thing is true for many government or "big PI" orgs; they want experienced people, and always have, because they don't have the resources to train you and they have a steady supply of expereinced lawyers applying. Even in a booming economy you couldn't just go to the ACLU and get a job.

And, honestly, doing a PD job is pretty damn "unprestigious" for the most part. You get shit for pay, judges treat you like crap, you have to deal with a wide range of unpleasant clients, and most random people on the street would randomly dislike you if they knew what you did because you defend criminals. Oh, and if you're in a really corrupt city, you can get the shit kicked out of you (and yes, I mean literally, sometimes) for actually standing up for your clients' rights loudly enough. And even in cities where the job is "easier" it's still a hard job that takes its toll on people.

I am being real. It sounds like you're the one being smug, especially when you play up the benefits and play down the burdens of PD work to such a ridiculous level to make your rather incorrect point.

[legends159]

An important point is that most people who are in "prestigious" PI positions had to go through the trenches. .

lol. bullshit.

I bet they love to say that, spending a summer at a PD office and then 'slugging' it out through through a federal clerkship so that you can work for the ACLU is not "going through the trenches"

yeah sure, ITE they may spend a couple years doing PD work AFTER their clerkship (the horror!) but that's oh so unprestigious

but yeah, they'll get their ACLU (or maybe a little less prestigious job) and then feel the smug warmth of that "going through the trenches" label that only a job with awesome exit options, loan forgiveness, and PI-cred could provide. All the benefits, none of the burdens...

there's nothing wrong with any of that per se, except for the false pretenses and feigned humanitarianism bits.

Let's be real, that's all I'm saying.

I don't know, federal PD work seems pretty prestigious....I met a PD (state) last year during my internship who graduated from Stanford, summered for Skadden and the joined the federal PD's office.

Federal defenders is uber prestigious. I'd argue more so than USAO simply b/c there are fewer spots. Federal defenders also get paid the same as AUSAs.

State PD is not as prestigious and don't get paid as well as their federal counterparts.

[worldtraveler]

You usually don't get your DREAM job straight out of school in any field. You have to work up to it. There are hundreds or organizations that do work on LGBT rights. If they're not "prestigious" enough for you, then something is wrong with your plans.

[JG Hall]

An important point is that most people who are in "prestigious" PI positions had to go through the trenches. .

lol. bullshit.

I bet they love to say that, spending a summer at a PD office and then 'slugging' it out through through a federal clerkship so that you can work for the ACLU is not "going through the trenches"

yeah sure, ITE they may spend a couple years doing PD work AFTER their clerkship (the horror!) but that's oh so unprestigious

but yeah, they'll get their ACLU (or maybe a little less prestigious job) and then feel the smug warmth of that "going through the trenches" label that only a job with awesome exit options, loan forgiveness, and PI-cred could provide. All the benefits, none of the burdens...

there's nothing wrong with any of that per se, except for the false pretenses and feigned humanitarianism bits.

Let's be real, that's all I'm saying.

I don't know, federal PD work seems pretty prestigious....I met a PD (state) last year during my internship who graduated from Stanford, summered for Skadden and the joined the federal PD's office.

Federal defenders is uber prestigious. I'd argue more so than USAO simply b/c there are fewer spots. Federal defenders also get paid the same as AUSAs.

State PD is not as prestigious and don't get paid as well as their federal counterparts.

I wanna get paiddddd.

John G. Roberts Jr., chief justice, US Supreme Court, $223,500; associate justices, $213,900.

Deborah K. Chasanow, chief justice, US District Court for the District of Maryland, $174,000.

Gerald Bruce Lee, judge, US District Court, Alexandria, $174,000.

Ronald C. Machen Jr., US Attorney for the District of Columbia, $155,500.

Richard E.Trodden, Commonwealth’s Attorney, Arlington County, $163,717.

Glenn Ivey, State’s Attorney, Prince George’s County, $124,000.

Avis Buchanan, director, DC Public Defender Service, $155,000. DC public defenders start at $66,630.

Melinda Douglas, chief public defender, Alexandria, $109,294. Public defenders in Northern Virginia start at $54,059.

Leslie M. Alden, judge, Fairfax Circuit Court, $158,134.

Donald Haddock Jr., judge, General District Court, Alexandria, $142,329.

Robert Bell, chief judge, Maryland Court of Appeals, Annapolis, $181,352.

Patrick Woodward, judge, Maryland Court of Special Appeals, Montgomery County, $149,552.

Patrick Ridgeway Duley, judge, District Court of Maryland, Prince George’s County, $127,252.

Lee Satterfield, chief judge, DC Superior Court, $174,500.

Eric Washington, chief judge, DC Court of Appeals, $185,000.

http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/17313.html

[Borhas]

And, honestly, doing a PD job is pretty damn "unprestigious" for the most part. You get shit for pay, judges treat you like crap, you have to deal with a wide range of unpleasant clients, and most random people on the street would randomly dislike you if they knew what you did because you defend criminals. Oh, and if you're in a really corrupt city, you can get the shit kicked out of you (and yes, I mean literally, sometimes) for actually standing up for your clients' rights loudly enough. And even in cities where the job is "easier" it's still a hard job that takes its toll on people.

I am being real. It sounds like you're the one being smug, especially when you play up the benefits and play down the burdens of PD work to such a ridiculous level to make your rather incorrect point.

I am being smug, but I never said PD work was Prestigious or not, in fact most of my post was regarding the stupid "prestigious" label tossed around. I was commenting on how people that aim for Prestige, often use other career paths as stepping stones (like you were implying OP do) and then complain how hard it was... Yeah no shit it was hard, you had no interest in doing that sort of work, you were using it as a stepping stone. Apparently it's a very common tactic... Do a Fed Clerkship, "slug it out" at a State PD office then move on to the ACLU, a couple of Stanford grads did that at the SFPD office.

The state PD's I've met actually love their jobs, many of them have been doing it for decades. It's "slugging it out" if you have your eyes set on a oh so prestigious ACLU legal research position. If you actually wanted to be a criminal trial lawyer it wouldn't be slugging it out, in fact you'd probably love your job and do it gladly.

Also, nevermind if your friend did Federal PD work, that's a whole different thing than state PD. It's even much less "slugging it out"

And no, they don't get beat up in the streets that's fucking absurd, maybe it happened to your guy, but let's not go down this anecdotal road where you claim X said this, and I say well ABCD said this blah blah blah

[linkx13]

RISEEEE

user has been outed for anon abuse, and warned for necro'ing an ancient thread to post something completely incomprehensible

[Pneumonia]

At least to me it does not seem incomprehensible that someone could be simultaneously motivated to do something both prestigious and in the public interest.