Best Phoenix firm? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I find it funny that myself and other students from Phoenix at my T10 school have better shots at a V5 NYC than at S&W.

This has almost always been the case. Top firms are not impressed by median at T10 - they're looking for a lot more like top 5-10% at local school, or top 25% at a top school, in addition to a really good fit. I know of two people at S&W who turned down V10s to be there and I don't think either of them were unusual cases.

I think this is less the case nowadays than a few years ago.

[Anonymous User]

Also, has anyone heard anything about Greenberg's class for next summer? Have they filled it out yet?

Full. They generally have a mid-summer reception they pick people out of.

They are looking to hire 2-4. Why doesn't GT get more love on this thread for PHX? They were the 9th most profitable firm in the country last year, up 5.4%; 8th largest nationally in terms of # of attys, and Phx office is fairly large with 70 attys. They not only are expanding their summer class, but increasing the length of it by two weeks. GT seems poised in a great growth position. I do not understand why they are getting the shaft here when Fennemore and L&R are getting more attn.

[Anonymous User]

Also, has anyone heard anything about Greenberg's class for next summer? Have they filled it out yet?

Full. They generally have a mid-summer reception they pick people out of.

They are looking to hire 2-4. Why doesn't GT get more love on this thread for PHX? They were the 9th most profitable firm in the country last year, up 5.4%; 8th largest nationally in terms of # of attys, and Phx office is fairly large with 70 attys. They not only are expanding their summer class, but increasing the length of it by two weeks. GT seems poised in a great growth position. I do not understand why they are getting the shaft here when Fennemore and L&R are getting more attn.

More like 60 attorneys, including ones they split with other locations. Also, they were founded here on the bones of the O'Connor Cavanagh split, and not necessarily the best people.

Why not compare them to L&R and Fennemore? Because they are less than a third as big, for starters. National billing doesn't mean much when you are talking about local presence. This is subjective, but I would also note there are some really unimpressive partners at GT Phoenix.

There is also the fact that GT withdrew from OCI at local schools and has already hired everybody they are going to hire. That doesn't spawn much goodwill.

[Anonymous User]

Also, has anyone heard anything about Greenberg's class for next summer? Have they filled it out yet?

Full. They generally have a mid-summer reception they pick people out of.

They are looking to hire 2-4. Why doesn't GT get more love on this thread for PHX? They were the 9th most profitable firm in the country last year, up 5.4%; 8th largest nationally in terms of # of attys, and Phx office is fairly large with 70 attys. They not only are expanding their summer class, but increasing the length of it by two weeks. GT seems poised in a great growth position. I do not understand why they are getting the shaft here when Fennemore and L&R are getting more attn.

More like 60 attorneys, including ones they split with other locations. Also, they were founded here on the bones of the O'Connor Cavanagh split, and not necessarily the best people.

Why not compare them to L&R and Fennemore? Because they are less than a third as big, for starters. National billing doesn't mean much when you are talking about local presence. This is subjective, but I would also note there are some really unimpressive partners at GT Phoenix.

There is also the fact that GT withdrew from OCI at local schools and has already hired everybody they are going to hire. That doesn't spawn much goodwill.

Very subjective indeed. Wouldn't you (i.e. local schools) rather have them W/D from OCI than go through the motions interviewing students when there aren't slots open? Also, for anyone looking to possibly move to other markets, GT >>FC any day. SW is one of the only Phx-based firms that is well- known outside of the region (I go to a midwestern T-25).

[Anonymous User]

Very subjective indeed. Wouldn't you (i.e. local schools) rather have them W/D from OCI than go through the motions interviewing students when there aren't slots open? Also, for anyone looking to possibly move to other markets, GT >>FC any day. SW is one of the only Phx-based firms that is well- known outside of the region (I go to a midwestern T-25).

If I were local I would not want them to make hiring decisions until they've interviewed at my school. Withdraw if you've made the decision and everything, but making that early decision kind of sucks.

I am not sure about the moving to other markets prospects, but I don't doubt it. A TTT national firm like GT could be better than a strictly regional top firm. That isn't an argument one way or the other about quality.

Perkins Coie is the national firm in Phoenix that should be in consideration for top tier. They are impressing a lot of people and attracting some good talent, unlike GT.

[Anonymous User]

Perkins Coie is the national firm in Phoenix that should be in consideration for top tier. They are impressing a lot of people and attracting some good talent, unlike GT.

Someone sounds bitter re: attracting "good talent". Either that, or you must have ins with the hiring attorneys at each firm and access to the resumes that they've each been receiving. Bc I'm sure it's not the case that your assessments regarding the quality of each firm's SAs are pure speculation and come straight outta your arse.

[Anonymous User]

Perkins Coie is the national firm in Phoenix that should be in consideration for top tier. They are impressing a lot of people and attracting some good talent, unlike GT.

Someone sounds bitter re: attracting "good talent". Either that, or you must have ins with the hiring attorneys at each firm and access to the resumes that they've each been receiving. Bc I'm sure it's not the case that your assessments regarding the quality of each firm's SAs are pure speculation and come straight outta your arse.

Actually you just gave to read their bios and look at their incoming classes. I also know their respective classes from last summer. Thanks for playing though.

[Anonymous User]

Shouldn't Gallagher and Kennedy be on this list as well? Obviously they've decided to not have a SA program the past few years, but they probably warrant being in this discussion as well with the work they do.

[Anonymous User]

I think the question is - best for what? I think its clear that the overall most "prestigious" are Snell and OM but still worth turning those two down for another firm that is better in a different practice area.

IMHO-

Appeals litigation: OM
Corp, construction, public law: Snell
Trial Law/Products Liability: B&B
BK/place to be a partner: T&B

Not sure about other fields. This is not based on any set of rankings but is just my personal perception/based on the firm's profitability in the area.

The national firms don't even belong in the conversation except for PC but, then again, they merged with Brown and Bain which was already a killer local firm in its own right.

[Anonymous User]

Shouldn't Gallagher and Kennedy be on this list as well? Obviously they've decided to not have a SA program the past few years, but they probably warrant being in this discussion as well with the work they do.

G&K is on the list, they're just not receiving many votes...

[Anonymous User]

Here are the Chambers rankings for Arizona (I only included relatively "big" firms and firms that have been discussed in this thread - no boutiques):

Corporate/M&A:

Band 1 - dla piper, Greenberg Traurig, Osborn Maledon, Snell & Wilmer
Band 2 - Ballard Spahr, Fennemore Craig, Quarles & Brady, Squire Sanders
Band 3 - Bryan Cave, Gallagher & Kennedy

Environmental:

Band 1 - Gallagher & Kennedy
Band 2 - Fennemore Craig, Quarles & Brady, Squire Sanders
Band 3 - Ballard Spahr, Lewis and Roca, Ryley Carlock, Polsinelli Shughart, Snell & Wilmer

Labor & Employment:

Band 1 - Greenberg Traurig, Steptoe & Johnson
Band 2 - Fennemore Craig, Quarles & Brady, Ryley Carlock
Band 3 - Snell & Wilmer

General Commercial Litigation:

Band 1 - Osborn Maledon, Snell & Wilmer
Band 2 - Fennemore Craig, Gallagher & Kennedy, Perkins Coie
Band 3 - Lewis and Roca, Quarles & Brady
Band 4 - Bryan Cave, Polsinelli Shughart, Steptoe & Johnson

White Collar/Government Investigations:

Band 1 - Gallagher & Kennedy, Osborn Maledon, Perkins Coie

Real Estate:

Band 1 - Fennemore Craig, Snell & Wilmer
Band 2 - Greenberg Traurig, Lewis and Roca, Quarles & Brady
Band 3 - Gallagher & Kennedy, Osborn Maledon, Perkins Coie, Ryley Carlock

Zoning/Land Use:

Band 1 - Gammage & Burnham
Band 2 - Fennemore Craig, Gallagher & Kennedy, Lewis and Roca, Snell & Wilmer


These rankings seem to confirm S&W and OM as far and away the top firms.

[Anonymous User]

Info from AmLaw in 2010:

Lewis and Roca
Attorneys: 188
Equity partners: 90
Gross revenue: $92,500,000 (same as 2009)
Revenue per lawyer: $490,000 (up 5.4% from 2009)
Profits per partner: $450,000 (up 9.8%)

Snell & Wilmer
Attorneys: 410
Equity partners: 77
Gross revenue: $243,000,000 (up .8%)
Revenue per lawyer: $595,000 (up 1.7%)
Profits per partner: $800,000 (up 1.3%)

Some conclusions:

S&W weathered the storm better in 2008-2009 so it is perhaps natural that L&R had a bigger recovery year in 2009-2010.

S&W has high leverage but is probably the most profitable firm in discussion. Worth noting that the Phoenix office is not as highly leveraged as S&W's satellites.

Both S&W and L&R consistently fare very well nationally when it comes to summer associate and mid-level associate satisfaction. S&W, for example, was in the top 25 firms out of the AmLaw 200 in the most recent mid-level associate survey.

[Anonymous User]

Info from AmLaw in 2010:

Lewis and Roca
Attorneys: 188
Equity partners: 90
Gross revenue: $92,500,000 (same as 2009)
Revenue per lawyer: $490,000 (up 5.4% from 2009)
Profits per partner: $450,000 (up 9.8%)

Snell & Wilmer
Attorneys: 410
Equity partners: 77
Gross revenue: $243,000,000 (up .8%)
Revenue per lawyer: $595,000 (up 1.7%)
Profits per partner: $800,000 (up 1.3%)

Some conclusions:

S&W weathered the storm better in 2008-2009 so it is perhaps natural that L&R had a bigger recovery year in 2009-2010.

S&W has high leverage but is probably the most profitable firm in discussion. Worth noting that the Phoenix office is not as highly leveraged as S&W's satellites.

Both S&W and L&R consistently fare very well nationally when it comes to summer associate and mid-level associate satisfaction. S&W, for example, was in the top 25 firms out of the AmLaw 200 in the most recent mid-level associate survey.

1. Is "profit per partner" a kind of approximation for partner "salary?"

2. Is this data available for other PHX firms (Osborn, Fennemore, Quarles, etc?)

Thanks!

[Anonymous User]

Info from AmLaw in 2010:

Lewis and Roca
Attorneys: 188
Equity partners: 90
Gross revenue: $92,500,000 (same as 2009)
Revenue per lawyer: $490,000 (up 5.4% from 2009)
Profits per partner: $450,000 (up 9.8%)

Snell & Wilmer
Attorneys: 410
Equity partners: 77
Gross revenue: $243,000,000 (up .8%)
Revenue per lawyer: $595,000 (up 1.7%)
Profits per partner: $800,000 (up 1.3%)

Some conclusions:

S&W weathered the storm better in 2008-2009 so it is perhaps natural that L&R had a bigger recovery year in 2009-2010.

S&W has high leverage but is probably the most profitable firm in discussion. Worth noting that the Phoenix office is not as highly leveraged as S&W's satellites.

Both S&W and L&R consistently fare very well nationally when it comes to summer associate and mid-level associate satisfaction. S&W, for example, was in the top 25 firms out of the AmLaw 200 in the most recent mid-level associate survey.

1. Is "profit per partner" a kind of approximation for partner "salary?"

2. Is this data available for other PHX firms (Osborn, Fennemore, Quarles, etc?)

Thanks!

1. Yes. The amount of total profit divided by the number of equity partners is the best approximation of what those equity partners at the firm are making. I would guess that most equity partners actually make slightly less than PPP but the really big rainmakers might make double or triple PPP, or even more - depends on the firm.

2. The data is not available for any other Phoenix-based firms because no other Phoenix-based firm is in the AmLaw 200.

Here is the data from firms that have significant Phoenix offices (keep in mind that these offices tend to have higher leverage than the firms' respective HQs):

Ballard Spahr
Attorneys: 446
Equity partners: 221
Gross revenue: $273,500,000 (up 0.9%)
Revenue per lawyer: $615,000 (up 10.8%)
Profits per partner: $525,000 (up 22.1%)

Bryan Cave
Attorneys: 908
Equity partners: 203
Gross revenue: $539,500,000 (down 2.8%)
Revenue per lawyer: $595,000 (up 8.2%)
Profits per partner: $705,000 (up 14.6%)

Perkins Coie
Attorneys: 693
Equity partners: 144
Gross revenue: $477,000,000 (up 10.2%)
Revenue per lawyer: $690,000 (up 7.8%)
Profits per partner: $900,000 (up 11.1%)

Polsinelli Shughart
Attorneys: 466
Equity partners: 90
Gross revenue: $219,500,000 (up 31%)
Revenue per lawyer: $470,000 (up 16%)
Profits per partner: $630,000 (up 27.3%)

Quarles & Brady
Attorneys: 412
Equity partners: 171
Gross revenue: $207,500,000 (down 3.7%)
Revenue per lawyer: $505,000 (same)
Profits per partner: $395,000 (down 2.5%)

Squire Sanders
Attorneys: 785
Equity partners: 149
Gross revenue: $518,000,000 (down 5%)
Revenue per lawyer: $660,000 (up 1.5%)
Profits per partner: $765,000 (down 3.8%)

Steptoe & Johnson
Attorneys: 408
Equity partners: 145
Gross revenue: $345,000,000 (up 1.9%)
Revenue per lawyer: $845,000 (up 19%)
Profits per partner: $910,000 (up 9.6%)

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know anything about bonuses in Phoenix? Who (if any) gives them, how they sort out?
Quick Above the Law searching yielded nothing...

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know anything about bonuses in Phoenix? Who (if any) gives them, how they sort out?
Quick Above the Law searching yielded nothing...

My understanding, based only on knowing associates at two of the biggest Phoenix-based firms, is that bonuses for junior associates are a) hours-based, and b) low. Think $3,000-$5,000. But when the standard NYC bonus is only $7,500-$15,000, it doesn't seem that bad.

[Anonymous User]

I find it funny that myself and other students from Phoenix at my T10 school have better shots at a V5 NYC than at S&W.

This has almost always been the case. Top firms are not impressed by median at T10 - they're looking for a lot more like top 5-10% at local school, or top 25% at a top school, in addition to a really good fit. I know of two people at S&W who turned down V10s to be there and I don't think either of them were unusual cases.

I think this is less the case nowadays than a few years ago.

If anything, it's MORE the case nowadays. Summer classes in Phoenix have WAY better SAs, on average, than ~5 years ago. A higher percentage of them are the T14 and turning-down-V10 type. The Phoenix market is also harder than ever to lateral into, so I assume fewer law students are throwing caution to the wind and running to NYC for a few years out of law school with the knowledge that they can always go back to the warm confines of a smaller market.

[Anonymous User]

Why doesn't GT get more love on this thread for PHX? They were the 9th most profitable firm in the country last year, up 5.4%; 8th largest nationally in terms of # of attys, and Phx office is fairly large with 70 attys.

In what metric were they the "9th most profitable firm?"

A few reasons why GT might not get much "love":

1. The Biltmore/Camelback Corridor, while great from a QOL standpoint and a cool place to work, is far from the legal limelight of downtown, or even midtown, and is basically only home to out-of-town firms and businesses.

2. Weak litigation.

3. Somewhat of a "TTT" national firm. National reputation pales in comparison to Perkins Coie, Steptoe & Johnson, or even Bryan Cave.

[Anonymous User]

I find it funny that myself and other students from Phoenix at my T10 school have better shots at a V5 NYC than at S&W.

This has almost always been the case. Top firms are not impressed by median at T10 - they're looking for a lot more like top 5-10% at local school, or top 25% at a top school, in addition to a really good fit. I know of two people at S&W who turned down V10s to be there and I don't think either of them were unusual cases.

I think this is less the case nowadays than a few years ago.

If anything, it's MORE the case nowadays. Summer classes in Phoenix have WAY better SAs, on average, than ~5 years ago. A higher percentage of them are the T14 and turning-down-V10 type. The Phoenix market is also harder than ever to lateral into, so I assume fewer law students are throwing caution to the wind and running to NYC for a few years out of law school with the knowledge that they can always go back to the warm confines of a smaller market.

I simply meant that PHX firms seem less parochial than they used to be when it comes to hiring T14. Formerly (rumor has it that) PHX firms would hire (say) top 10% at ASU before they'd hire top half at a T14. All I said was that it seems this is no longer the case.

[Anonymous User]

Info from AmLaw in 2010:

Lewis and Roca
Attorneys: 188
Equity partners: 90
Gross revenue: $92,500,000 (same as 2009)
Revenue per lawyer: $490,000 (up 5.4% from 2009)
Profits per partner: $450,000 (up 9.8%)

Snell & Wilmer
Attorneys: 410
Equity partners: 77
Gross revenue: $243,000,000 (up .8%)
Revenue per lawyer: $595,000 (up 1.7%)
Profits per partner: $800,000 (up 1.3%)

Some conclusions:

S&W weathered the storm better in 2008-2009 so it is perhaps natural that L&R had a bigger recovery year in 2009-2010.

S&W has high leverage but is probably the most profitable firm in discussion. Worth noting that the Phoenix office is not as highly leveraged as S&W's satellites.

Both S&W and L&R consistently fare very well nationally when it comes to summer associate and mid-level associate satisfaction. S&W, for example, was in the top 25 firms out of the AmLaw 200 in the most recent mid-level associate survey.

1. Is "profit per partner" a kind of approximation for partner "salary?"

2. Is this data available for other PHX firms (Osborn, Fennemore, Quarles, etc?)

Thanks!

1. Yes. The amount of total profit divided by the number of equity partners is the best approximation of what those equity partners at the firm are making. I would guess that most equity partners actually make slightly less than PPP but the really big rainmakers might make double or triple PPP, or even more - depends on the firm.

2. The data is not available for any other Phoenix-based firms because no other Phoenix-based firm is in the AmLaw 200.

Here is the data from firms that have significant Phoenix offices (keep in mind that these offices tend to have higher leverage than the firms' respective HQs):

Ballard Spahr
Attorneys: 446
Equity partners: 221
Gross revenue: $273,500,000 (up 0.9%)
Revenue per lawyer: $615,000 (up 10.8%)
Profits per partner: $525,000 (up 22.1%)

Bryan Cave
Attorneys: 908
Equity partners: 203
Gross revenue: $539,500,000 (down 2.8%)
Revenue per lawyer: $595,000 (up 8.2%)
Profits per partner: $705,000 (up 14.6%)

Perkins Coie
Attorneys: 693
Equity partners: 144
Gross revenue: $477,000,000 (up 10.2%)
Revenue per lawyer: $690,000 (up 7.8%)
Profits per partner: $900,000 (up 11.1%)

Polsinelli Shughart
Attorneys: 466
Equity partners: 90
Gross revenue: $219,500,000 (up 31%)
Revenue per lawyer: $470,000 (up 16%)
Profits per partner: $630,000 (up 27.3%)

Quarles & Brady
Attorneys: 412
Equity partners: 171
Gross revenue: $207,500,000 (down 3.7%)
Revenue per lawyer: $505,000 (same)
Profits per partner: $395,000 (down 2.5%)

Squire Sanders
Attorneys: 785
Equity partners: 149
Gross revenue: $518,000,000 (down 5%)
Revenue per lawyer: $660,000 (up 1.5%)
Profits per partner: $765,000 (down 3.8%)

Steptoe & Johnson
Attorneys: 408
Equity partners: 145
Gross revenue: $345,000,000 (up 1.9%)
Revenue per lawyer: $845,000 (up 19%)
Profits per partner: $910,000 (up 9.6%)

Really? I find that hard to believe. Example: I'm sure Snell is a great firm, but I find it hard to believe that the average partner there makes just under $900k annually. I thought only Cravath/Skadden-type partners pulled in anywhere near a mil.

Then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about. Just seems like a lot.

[Anonymous User]

Really? I find that hard to believe. Example: I'm sure Snell is a great firm, but I find it hard to believe that the average partner there makes just under $900k annually. I thought only Cravath/Skadden-type partners pulled in anywhere near a mil.

Then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about. Just seems like a lot.

Cravath/Skadden partners were making $1 million back in the '90s man.

PPP at the big NYC firms is WAAAAAY higher than that now:

1. Wachtell - $4.3 million
2. Quinn Emanuel - $3.6 million
3. Sullivan & Cromwell - $3.3 million
4. Cahill - $3.2 million
5. Cravath - $3.2 million
6. Kirkland - $3.1 million
7. Paul Weiss - $3.1 million
8. Simpson - $2.6 million
9. Cleary - $2.6 million
10. Boies - $2.6 million

For perspective, Snell is more similar to mid-size market firms like Jones Day ($820,000) and Hunton & Williams ($815,000).

[Anonymous User]

Really? I find that hard to believe. Example: I'm sure Snell is a great firm, but I find it hard to believe that the average partner there makes just under $900k annually. I thought only Cravath/Skadden-type partners pulled in anywhere near a mil.

Then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about. Just seems like a lot.

Cravath/Skadden partners were making $1 million back in the '90s man.

PPP at the big NYC firms is WAAAAAY higher than that now:

1. Wachtell - $4.3 million
2. Quinn Emanuel - $3.6 million
3. Sullivan & Cromwell - $3.3 million
4. Cahill - $3.2 million
5. Cravath - $3.2 million
6. Kirkland - $3.1 million
7. Paul Weiss - $3.1 million
8. Simpson - $2.6 million
9. Cleary - $2.6 million
10. Boies - $2.6 million

For perspective, Snell is more similar to mid-size market firms like Jones Day ($820,000) and Hunton & Williams ($815,000).

Wow. I had no idea. Anyone have any idea what PPP might be at some of the non-Amlaw 200 PHX firms (Gallagher, Fennemore, etc?)

[Anonymous User]

Really? I find that hard to believe. Example: I'm sure Snell is a great firm, but I find it hard to believe that the average partner there makes just under $900k annually. I thought only Cravath/Skadden-type partners pulled in anywhere near a mil.

Then again, I don't really know what I'm talking about. Just seems like a lot.

Cravath/Skadden partners were making $1 million back in the '90s man.

PPP at the big NYC firms is WAAAAAY higher than that now:

1. Wachtell - $4.3 million
2. Quinn Emanuel - $3.6 million
3. Sullivan & Cromwell - $3.3 million
4. Cahill - $3.2 million
5. Cravath - $3.2 million
6. Kirkland - $3.1 million
7. Paul Weiss - $3.1 million
8. Simpson - $2.6 million
9. Cleary - $2.6 million
10. Boies - $2.6 million

For perspective, Snell is more similar to mid-size market firms like Jones Day ($820,000) and Hunton & Williams ($815,000).

Wow. I had no idea. Anyone have any idea what PPP might be at some of the non-Amlaw 200 PHX firms (Gallagher, Fennemore, etc?)

I would assume that Gallagher and Fennemore are more in the ballpark of Lewis and Roca: somewhere between $300,000 and $500,000. I assume Fennemore > Gallagher, though.

[Anonymous User]

Answer to OP: Snell is the best PHX firm.

Fennemore and Osborn are probably numbers 2 and 3, but I dunno which would be better. Osborn is smaller and has one of the top appellate practices in town, while Fennemore is bigger (only Snell has more lawyers in PHX) and is about as close to an "old-line" firm as we have in the Valley. Fennemore seems to have quite a history (for a PHX firm).

[Anonymous User]

Anybody know what Mariscal Weeks pays associates?