Non-Vault Firms Start Hiring Later? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'd heard that a lot of firms which pay market-ish salaries but aren't "national" tend to start hiring around now, as the dust settles from the OCI machine. Is this true?

I have good grades (30-40%?) at a T14 and for some reason came up totally empty-handed. Any advice for how I should conduct my job search in between bouts of angst and loathing? Is it really all over?

[Anonymous Loser]

I'd heard that a lot of firms which pay market-ish salaries but aren't "national" tend to start hiring around now, as the dust settles from the OCI machine. Is this true?

No, this is not true. Most, if not all, solid regional firms offering market-rate starting salaries finalized their hiring plans long ago.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, it's over. But public interest stuff starts next semester I think. Maybe some government stuff too?

[Anonymous User]

No, they have the same hiring cycle as biglaw firms. I mailed midlaw in August before OCI and ended up landing a couple callbacks. I'm sure there are a couple smaller firms that have not finished recruiting, but I'd get on it now.

Also, don't waste time snail mailing apps. I think emailing works better because it's a lot quicker and attorneys like distributing your application materials to other attorneys in the firm.

[Renzo]

There is some general truth mixed with some misinformation going on here. Some smallish (by biglaw standard) regional firms do hire a little later, but that was a little later than OCI--not a month and a half later. However, even NYC V100 firms are still doing some slight amount of hiring. The OCS office at my school is collecting resumes for some firms that did EIW, but didn't get the yield they wanted. So, there's some hope. Bottom line is you're definitely way behind, but getting those resumes out STAT to mid-market firms isn't an entirely hopeless exercise.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, it's over. But public interest stuff starts next semester I think. Maybe some government stuff too?

good gov stuff was done early too, e.g. DOJ's deadline was sep. 7

[Anonymous User]

I received a callback for a small NY office of a non-V100 firm (but large in its home market) two weeks ago.

There is some general truth mixed with some misinformation going on here. Some smallish (by biglaw standard) regional firms do hire a little later, but that was a little later than OCI--not a month and a half later. However, even NYC V100 firms are still doing some slight amount of hiring. The OCS office at my school is collecting resumes for some firms that did EIW, but didn't get the yield they wanted. So, there's some hope. Bottom line is you're definitely way behind, but getting those resumes out STAT to mid-market firms isn't an entirely hopeless exercise.

How does this work? Do you have to go meet with them and let them know you are still looking, or do they send out emails telling everyone they are still collecting? We don't call our OCI EIW so not the same school, but I'd like to know anyway so I can go annoy my OCS if necessary.

[Renzo]

I received a callback for a small NY office of a non-V100 firm (but large in its home market) two weeks ago.

There is some general truth mixed with some misinformation going on here. Some smallish (by biglaw standard) regional firms do hire a little later, but that was a little later than OCI--not a month and a half later. However, even NYC V100 firms are still doing some slight amount of hiring. The OCS office at my school is collecting resumes for some firms that did EIW, but didn't get the yield they wanted. So, there's some hope. Bottom line is you're definitely way behind, but getting those resumes out STAT to mid-market firms isn't an entirely hopeless exercise.

How does this work? Do you have to go meet with them and let them know you are still looking, or do they send out emails telling everyone they are still collecting? We don't call our OCI EIW so not the same school, but I'd like to know anyway so I can go annoy my OCS if necessary.

I would ask them. At my school they sent out an email, and you have to opt-in. But, they won't tell us what firms, because the firms are afraid there will be a stigma associated with coming to the buffet a second time.

[Anonymous User]

Your avatar gives me strength, Renzo.

I keep blaming myself for poor market selection/interviews, but maybe it really is just my good-but-not-great grades plus random chance. I ended up with about a third of the interviews of most students at my non-prescreening school, maybe because I bid wrong (?).

Events that should have led me to realize I was a dead 2L walking:

(1) I tell a friend my (top half but not top quarter) GPA at OCI. He gives me a consoling hug and tells me it's all going to be okay.

(2) I go to talk with a non-school career consultant person. He appraises my situation and his first suggestion is, "Okay, so, get magna, write onto Law Review, and win the moot court competition, then you can maybe angle for a clerkship and get a biglaw job then!" I stare at him and say, uh, well, sure, those things all sound nice, but even then, wouldn't I have an almost zero chance? And he was like, well, it's better than nothing.

I am going to do everything I can to make sure this doesn't happen to the next class. Most of them will probably be fine, just like most of my classmates were fine, but for those as stupid (or to be more act-based and less judgmental, perhaps, "stupid-prone") as me, maybe something can be done to spare them the consequences.

[Anonymous User]

Your avatar gives me strength, Renzo.

I keep blaming myself for poor market selection/interviews, but maybe it really is just my good-but-not-great grades plus random chance. I ended up with about a third of the interviews of most students at my non-prescreening school, maybe because I bid wrong (?).

Events that should have led me to realize I was a dead 2L walking:

(1) I tell a friend my (top half but not top quarter) GPA at OCI. He gives me a consoling hug and tells me it's all going to be okay.

(2) I go to talk with a non-school career consultant person. He appraises my situation and his first suggestion is, "Okay, so, get magna, write onto Law Review, and win the moot court competition, then you can maybe angle for a clerkship and get a biglaw job then!" I stare at him and say, uh, well, sure, those things all sound nice, but even then, wouldn't I have an almost zero chance? And he was like, well, it's better than nothing.

I am going to do everything I can to make sure this doesn't happen to the next class. Most of them will probably be fine, just like most of my classmates were fine, but for those as stupid (or to be more act-based and less judgmental, perhaps, "stupid-prone") as me, maybe something can be done to spare them the consequences.

This is how I feel too. Medianish (probably a little below) at T6. Bid mostly on firms in a secondary market and got wiped out. I had three callbacks in NYC but this year it seems like you needed 6 or so to be okay. Two months later I am still going over my bidlist wondering how I screwed this up so badly. But there are definitely 3 or 4 decisions I made just in the OCI process alone that sunk me.

Career services, while not actively sabotaging me, certainly didn't raise the red flags that they should have been in a position to raise given that they had the data from last year. One career services person even told me that this year was going to be more like 08 than 09. It seems like this site reached a critical mass of posts this year for EIP, so maybe future students won't fall into the trap.

[VictoryFord]

many/most smaller (~<50) firms will hire in the spring for summer clerk positions if they have them at all. Also, these positions may not be like biglaw positions in that they may not near assure a position after 3L. However, if the firm is paying 135+ it probably hired already or is hiring right now.

[Aqualibrium]

I've said this before, but it's worth repeating:

It doesn't matter what school you go to or what your grades look like, if you rely only on OCI to get a job, you are unwise. You don't have to mass mail; just do your research and target a few firms that you like. Always have a back up plan.

That said, op is in trouble. Most regionaly strong firms are wrapping up their recruiting season just like the big firms. Firms that are smaller, with regards to size and/or regional relevance, do tend to have an extended recruiting window though. At this point you can't really discriminate with regards to where you apply; your best bet is just to apply everywhere and hope some firm hasn't filled up all their spots, or that they like you enough to add a spot to the program.

[Aqualibrium]

many/most smaller (~<50) firms will hire in the spring for summer clerk positions if they have them at all. Also, these positions may not be like biglaw positions in that they may not near assure a position after 3L. However, if the firm is paying 135+ it probably hired already or is hiring right now.

I don't think you can put a hard and fast rule relating to size and pay on it. In my opinion, it's more about the firm's significance in the region than their size. The more relevant firms in secondary market follow the same hiring schedule that the big law shops in major markets follow, regardless of their size. The places that aren't as significant in the market are the ones that generally have spring recruiting.

[VictoryFord]

many/most smaller (~<50) firms will hire in the spring for summer clerk positions if they have them at all. Also, these positions may not be like biglaw positions in that they may not near assure a position after 3L. However, if the firm is paying 135+ it probably hired already or is hiring right now.

I don't think you can put a hard and fast rule relating to size and pay on it. In my opinion, it's more about the firm's significance in the region than their size. The more relevant firms in secondary market follow the same hiring schedule that the big law shops in major markets follow, regardless of their size. The places that aren't as significant in the market are the ones that generally have spring recruiting.

i agree

[Anonymous User]

Tonight, I'm going to spend several hours putting together a wave of applications. Hopefully I can catch some market-ish pay despite my stupid mistakes. (I should add that while I indeed wish I had known about how to mass-mail before OCI, I have not been ignoring other avenues; I have been job-searching actively since OCI, and it has brought me a few leads...but not enough.) I suppose one up-side to underperforming at OCI is that, with the super-elite removed from the pool, one becomes much more competitive in the next wave. (Unfortunately, I suspect this is mostly outweighed by the fact that most of the good places refuse to think about candidates after that first OCI rush.)

Next person who calls my non-HYS T14 school "elite" gets punched in the face. Neither I nor most of my classmates are feeling very "elite" right now.

[20160810]

The game's not over for a lot of small (like 30 or less) firms, I'd imagine, but I think the game's pretty much wrapped up for any NALP firm.

[Anonymous User]

The game's not over for a lot of small (like 30 or less) firms, I'd imagine, but I think the game's pretty much wrapped up for any NALP firm.

Is it really that bad? Not even listed in NALP? Fuck. I assume these remainder jobs are those 35K/year for BigLaw hours places where you chase ambulances and work for a sketchy guy with a Cooley degree. I had no idea it was going to end like this.

[Aqualibrium]

The game's not over for a lot of small (like 30 or less) firms, I'd imagine, but I think the game's pretty much wrapped up for any NALP firm.

Is it really that bad? Not even listed in NALP? Fuck. I assume these remainder jobs are those 35K/year for BigLaw hours places where you chase ambulances and work for a sketchy guy with a Cooley degree. I had no idea it was going to end like this.

You assume wrong. NALP is not the definitive list of law firms. According to NALP there are something like 5 firms in Alabama and 10 in Louisiana. Do you think for a minute that this is accurate or that any firm outside those 15 or so is crap? It lists something like 40 firms in Georgia, but I can name 3 market paying firms that aren't on the list.

NALP is a good tool, but don't let it be your only tool.

[20160810]

The game's not over for a lot of small (like 30 or less) firms, I'd imagine, but I think the game's pretty much wrapped up for any NALP firm.

Is it really that bad? Not even listed in NALP? Fuck. I assume these remainder jobs are those 35K/year for BigLaw hours places where you chase ambulances and work for a sketchy guy with a Cooley degree. I had no idea it was going to end like this.

You assume wrong. NALP is not the definitive list of law firms. According to NALP there are something like 5 firms in Alabama and 10 in Louisiana. Do you think for a minute that this is accurate or that any firm outside those 15 or so is crap? It lists something like 40 firms in Georgia, but I can name 3 market paying firms that aren't on the list.

NALP is a good tool, but don't let it be your only tool.

TITCR. If a 100+-person firm wasn't listed on NALP, I'd be suspicious, but when it comes to firms in the 20-to-60-attorney-or-so range, there doesn't seem to be any obvious difference in quality between those which are listed on NALP and those which are not. (FWIW, I will be working for a firm in that size range I really like that is not listed on NALP. It pays well, employs lots of T14 grads, and does good work - no ambulance chasing or insurance defense).

For a better picture of what's really out there, I'd suggest hitting up martindale.com.

[Anonymous User]

I'd heard that a lot of firms which pay market-ish salaries but aren't "national" tend to start hiring around now, as the dust settles from the OCI machine. Is this true?

I have good grades (30-40%?) at a T14 and for some reason came up totally empty-handed. Any advice for how I should conduct my job search in between bouts of angst and loathing? Is it really all over?

I'm in the same position, OP -- top 1/3ish at a t14. Struck out at OCI, one callback outstanding at a midlaw firm from massmailing (which I think is a rejection, since I sent them a status check sort of email last week and received no response... though you never know). But I've had absolutely no good news from firms I've mailed in the last two weeks. Either rejections or non-responses. It's getting pretty hairy out there. Massmail and hope for the best, but start looking at government and public interest jobs too.

[Renzo]

TITCR. If a 100+-person firm wasn't listed on NALP, I'd be suspicious, but when it comes to firms in the 20-to-60-attorney-or-so range, there doesn't seem to be any obvious difference in quality between those which are listed on NALP and those which are not. (FWIW, I will be working for a firm in that size range I really like that is not listed on NALP. It pays well, employs lots of T14 grads, and does good work - no ambulance chasing or insurance defense).

For a better picture of what's really out there, I'd suggest hitting up martindale.com.

It costs firms money to join NALP, so many smaller (or midsize, depending how we're parsing it) firms just don't pay. The new US News law firm rankings are a huge waste, but the one thing they're good for is an easy way to find lists of firms in different areas, many of which are decent sized and non NALP firms. Martindale is also great.

[Aqualibrium]

TITCR. If a 100+-person firm wasn't listed on NALP, I'd be suspicious, but when it comes to firms in the 20-to-60-attorney-or-so range, there doesn't seem to be any obvious difference in quality between those which are listed on NALP and those which are not. (FWIW, I will be working for a firm in that size range I really like that is not listed on NALP. It pays well, employs lots of T14 grads, and does good work - no ambulance chasing or insurance defense).

For a better picture of what's really out there, I'd suggest hitting up martindale.com.

It costs firms money to join NALP, so many smaller (or midsize, depending how we're parsing it) firms just don't pay. The new US News law firm rankings are a huge waste, but the one thing they're good for is an easy way to find lists of firms in different areas, many of which are decent sized and non NALP firms. Martindale is also great.

I don't think they are a waste. To me they are very similar to Chambers because they provide a way to research the relative strengths of a firm's practice areas.

[Renzo]

TITCR. If a 100+-person firm wasn't listed on NALP, I'd be suspicious, but when it comes to firms in the 20-to-60-attorney-or-so range, there doesn't seem to be any obvious difference in quality between those which are listed on NALP and those which are not. (FWIW, I will be working for a firm in that size range I really like that is not listed on NALP. It pays well, employs lots of T14 grads, and does good work - no ambulance chasing or insurance defense).

For a better picture of what's really out there, I'd suggest hitting up martindale.com.

It costs firms money to join NALP, so many smaller (or midsize, depending how we're parsing it) firms just don't pay. The new US News law firm rankings are a huge waste, but the one thing they're good for is an easy way to find lists of firms in different areas, many of which are decent sized and non NALP firms. Martindale is also great.

I don't think they are a waste. To me they are very similar to Chambers because they provide a way to research the relative strengths of a firm's practice areas, although based primarily on the firms decision to purchase preferred listing.

FTFY.

[Aqualibrium]

TITCR. If a 100+-person firm wasn't listed on NALP, I'd be suspicious, but when it comes to firms in the 20-to-60-attorney-or-so range, there doesn't seem to be any obvious difference in quality between those which are listed on NALP and those which are not. (FWIW, I will be working for a firm in that size range I really like that is not listed on NALP. It pays well, employs lots of T14 grads, and does good work - no ambulance chasing or insurance defense).

For a better picture of what's really out there, I'd suggest hitting up martindale.com.

It costs firms money to join NALP, so many smaller (or midsize, depending how we're parsing it) firms just don't pay. The new US News law firm rankings are a huge waste, but the one thing they're good for is an easy way to find lists of firms in different areas, many of which are decent sized and non NALP firms. Martindale is also great.

I don't think they are a waste. To me they are very similar to Chambers because they provide a way to research the relative strengths of a firm's practice areas, although based primarily on the firms decision to purchase preferred listing.

FTFY.

I won't pretend to understand the dynamics of the purchasing structure in either Chambers or US News. I will say that regardless of whether "preferred listing" is purchased, some evaluation is still made as to the relative strength of a firm's practice areas. If nothing else, it helps to see that a firm's healthcare practice is not listed by either chambers or us news despite the fact that the firm boasts of a "thriving healthcare practice" on its website.

[Bankhead]

Your avatar gives me strength, Renzo.

I keep blaming myself for poor market selection/interviews, but maybe it really is just my good-but-not-great grades plus random chance. I ended up with about a third of the interviews of most students at my non-prescreening school, maybe because I bid wrong (?).

Events that should have led me to realize I was a dead 2L walking:

(1) I tell a friend my (top half but not top quarter) GPA at OCI. He gives me a consoling hug and tells me it's all going to be okay.

(2) I go to talk with a non-school career consultant person. He appraises my situation and his first suggestion is, "Okay, so, get magna, write onto Law Review, and win the moot court competition, then you can maybe angle for a clerkship and get a biglaw job then!" I stare at him and say, uh, well, sure, those things all sound nice, but even then, wouldn't I have an almost zero chance? And he was like, well, it's better than nothing.I am going to do everything I can to make sure this doesn't happen to the next class. Most of them will probably be fine, just like most of my classmates were fine, but for those as stupid (or to be more act-based and less judgmental, perhaps, "stupid-prone") as me, maybe something can be done to spare them the consequences.

If either of those people did that to I'd smack them upside the head. You had a great chance going in, and no one should have told you to the contrary, it just didn't work out unfortunately. I know people in the bottom half with offers.