How much do trial attorneys make compared to ... Forum

[M.M.]

... say, corporate contract attorneys? And other types?

This is assuming that the change in job title is the only variation, obviously.

The former seems to be a little more exciting, whereas the latter is often seen as dreadfully boring, monotonous, and not very intellectually stimulating.

But how do the pay scales fare?

[bostlaw]

on average corporate make much more, but don't chase money just to chase money.

[Journeybound]

The above poster is correct, for the most part. However, a good amount of trial attorneys can end up making much more money than corporate attorneys. For example, senior (partner) trial attorneys at a small class action plaintiffs' firm consistently get cuts of multi-million dollar verdicts/settlements. And in firms that don't go after the big class actions, plaintiffs' attorneys can still get 1/3 fees off of various 200k-1 mil verdicts each year. So a plaintiffs' attorney can ultimately out earn a Corporate lawyer if he or she is with the right firm and has the right amount of experience. And yes, it is very exciting, and it requires an entrepreneurial spirit to invest time and money into contingent fee cases. However, the downside is that you will be earning around 60-80k (in both big and small markets) for the first few years. But you can get your salary into six figures after a few years. And then once you are partner or begin taking your own cases the money really starts rolling in.

[romothesavior]

Depends on what you mean by "trial attorney." Your pay depends more on the firm, types of clients, and level of experience than what you are actually doing, IMO.

[pocket herc]

a lot of people would be very happy to be making 60-80k right out of law school.

[Renzo]

on average corporate make much more, but don't chase money just to chase money.

This might be true, but it's badly misleading.

If you compare the compensation of litigators and transactional lawyers at the top firms there isn't much of a difference. But, if you add in all lawyers, all those "litigators" doing DUI defense, slip-and-fall cases, evictions, and disputed divorces are going to drag down the average wage of litigators. There's no equivalent low-market for corporate work, so on average, litigators probably do make less--but that just proves that the average is meaningless in this comparison.

[M.M.]

So at biglaw / the next step down anyone know what a trial attorney might make a year, if another attorney makes 160K / year or ~130K ?

[reasonable_man]

This is sily... Anyway...


Most law school grads (more than 80%), don't work in biglaw. I, like most, never worked in biglaw. Salary depends largely on your specilization, firm size and location.

I guess I am a "trial lawyer," as I have tried one small case and have argued motions, taken depositions, etc. The more generic term is a civil litigator, but whatever...

I graduated in 2008 and passed the bar the first time out and was admitted to practice in the spring of 2009 in NY.

At my first firm, with 75 attorneys, I earned 65k for my first 6 months, after being licensed, which then went up to about 70k base. I was up for another review 6 months later and would have gotten another 10k more (80k) by the end of my first year. However, I left for a much smaller, more specialized Wall Street firm, with about 5 attorneys, where I now make about 80k before bonus, with health benefits fully paid for by my firm, with all expenses covered including laptop, bar fees, memberships, expense items, etc. I have been fully licensed for about 14 months. My situation is not uncommon.

[nealric]

"Trial Attorney" could cover anyone from a small town slip-and-fall lawyer making 20k a year to Joe Jamail (who is a billionaire).

"Corporate Contract Attorney" (BTW contract attorney usually refers to people who do document review- not people who do corporate work) could cover anything from the guy who does small business incorporations for $100 a pop, to Marty Lipton (named partner at Wachtell).

[M.M.]

This is sily... Anyway...


Most law school grads (more than 80%), don't work in biglaw. I, like most, never worked in biglaw. Salary depends largely on your specilization, firm size and location.

I guess I am a "trial lawyer," as I have tried one small case and have argued motions, taken depositions, etc. The more generic term is a civil litigator, but whatever...

I graduated in 2008 and passed the bar the first time out and was admitted to practice in the spring of 2009 in NY.

At my first firm, with 75 attorneys, I earned 65k for my first 6 months, after being licensed, which then went up to about 70k base. I was up for another review 6 months later and would have gotten another 10k more (80k) by the end of my first year. However, I left for a much smaller, more specialized Wall Street firm, with about 5 attorneys, where I now make about 80k before bonus, with health benefits fully paid for by my firm, with all expenses covered including laptop, bar fees, memberships, expense items, etc. I have been fully licensed for about 14 months. My situation is not uncommon.

Where did you graduate from and what percent of your class? What other factors (such as charisma, looks etc.) might determine your salary? I don't even really want to go to biglaw (kind of), too many work hours, but the next step down seems more alluring.

@ Nealric thanks for clearing that up for me

[CLS2011]

If you're a litigator your hours are going to be pretty rough whether you're working big law or not.

[reasonable_man]

This is sily... Anyway...


Most law school grads (more than 80%), don't work in biglaw. I, like most, never worked in biglaw. Salary depends largely on your specilization, firm size and location.

I guess I am a "trial lawyer," as I have tried one small case and have argued motions, taken depositions, etc. The more generic term is a civil litigator, but whatever...

I graduated in 2008 and passed the bar the first time out and was admitted to practice in the spring of 2009 in NY.

At my first firm, with 75 attorneys, I earned 65k for my first 6 months, after being licensed, which then went up to about 70k base. I was up for another review 6 months later and would have gotten another 10k more (80k) by the end of my first year. However, I left for a much smaller, more specialized Wall Street firm, with about 5 attorneys, where I now make about 80k before bonus, with health benefits fully paid for by my firm, with all expenses covered including laptop, bar fees, memberships, expense items, etc. I have been fully licensed for about 14 months. My situation is not uncommon.

Where did you graduate from and what percent of your class? What other factors (such as charisma, looks etc.) might determine your salary? I don't even really want to go to biglaw (kind of), too many work hours, but the next step down seems more alluring.

@ Nealric thanks for clearing that up for me

Top 25% of my class from a TTTT law school. But I approached becoming a lawyer in a very different way and that, essentially, paid off to some extent. I would not say that my results are common for most TTTT graduates.

[ScaredWorkedBored]

As others have said, there's no clear dividing line. There are fairly sizable firms that do at least some plaintiffs litigation.

If you're thinking of classic trial lawyer versus classic associate, the trial lawyer has no ceiling or floor to his income potential. The associate earns a much more predictable salary, but will never come close to the maximum earning potential of the trial lawyer.

[Renzo]

So at biglaw / the next step down anyone know what a trial attorney might make a year, if another attorney makes 160K / year or ~130K ?

If I understand your question, at the big firms there is essentially pay parity between corporate work and litigation work. New associates at big, major market firms make $160k, regardless of whether they litigate or do transactional work.

[M.M.]

This is sily... Anyway...


Most law school grads (more than 80%), don't work in biglaw. I, like most, never worked in biglaw. Salary depends largely on your specilization, firm size and location.

I guess I am a "trial lawyer," as I have tried one small case and have argued motions, taken depositions, etc. The more generic term is a civil litigator, but whatever...

I graduated in 2008 and passed the bar the first time out and was admitted to practice in the spring of 2009 in NY.

At my first firm, with 75 attorneys, I earned 65k for my first 6 months, after being licensed, which then went up to about 70k base. I was up for another review 6 months later and would have gotten another 10k more (80k) by the end of my first year. However, I left for a much smaller, more specialized Wall Street firm, with about 5 attorneys, where I now make about 80k before bonus, with health benefits fully paid for by my firm, with all expenses covered including laptop, bar fees, memberships, expense items, etc. I have been fully licensed for about 14 months. My situation is not uncommon.

Where did you graduate from and what percent of your class? What other factors (such as charisma, looks etc.) might determine your salary? I don't even really want to go to biglaw (kind of), too many work hours, but the next step down seems more alluring.

@ Nealric thanks for clearing that up for me

Top 25% of my class from a TTTT law school. But I approached becoming a lawyer in a very different way and that, essentially, paid off to some extent. I would not say that my results are common for most TTTT graduates.

Well it's really no wonder you didn't work in biglaw then right ?

@ CLS do litigators tend to work more ?

[reasonable_man]

This is sily... Anyway...


Most law school grads (more than 80%), don't work in biglaw. I, like most, never worked in biglaw. Salary depends largely on your specilization, firm size and location.

I guess I am a "trial lawyer," as I have tried one small case and have argued motions, taken depositions, etc. The more generic term is a civil litigator, but whatever...

I graduated in 2008 and passed the bar the first time out and was admitted to practice in the spring of 2009 in NY.

At my first firm, with 75 attorneys, I earned 65k for my first 6 months, after being licensed, which then went up to about 70k base. I was up for another review 6 months later and would have gotten another 10k more (80k) by the end of my first year. However, I left for a much smaller, more specialized Wall Street firm, with about 5 attorneys, where I now make about 80k before bonus, with health benefits fully paid for by my firm, with all expenses covered including laptop, bar fees, memberships, expense items, etc. I have been fully licensed for about 14 months. My situation is not uncommon.

Where did you graduate from and what percent of your class? What other factors (such as charisma, looks etc.) might determine your salary? I don't even really want to go to biglaw (kind of), too many work hours, but the next step down seems more alluring.

@ Nealric thanks for clearing that up for me

Top 25% of my class from a TTTT law school. But I approached becoming a lawyer in a very different way and that, essentially, paid off to some extent. I would not say that my results are common for most TTTT graduates.

Well it's really no wonder you didn't work in biglaw then right ?

@ CLS do litigators tend to work more ?

You must have lots and lots of friends... I bet the ladies love you too.


I should add... I work about half the hours of a biglaw paralegal... eh I mean lawyer (thats what they call their doc reviewers right?)... I've been before half the judges in the EDNY and SDNY arguing substantive motions and I have successfully argued cases against V10 partners (in one case, that firm's global head of litigation). But hey, you're a 0L. You got it alllll figured out; right brah?

[Journeybound]

BOOM!

[M.M.]

Lol no reason to take offense, what I've heard about stats is that they're the be all end all. Your LS stats aren't impressive; it's reasonable to assume you wouldn't have had a chance. But I'm glad you enjoy what you do and consider yourself successful.

I should probably add that I replied quickly while studying (e.g. my mind was on other things) and not really paying attention and didn't mean to sound condescending, though I realize how it could've come off that way. But just judging from what I've heard like I said unless you're at T14 it's rare to go biglaw, and you were saying before that 80% of people don't.

I'm actually kind of interested if you'd mind sharing with me, how exactly did you approach it in a different way?

For the first few years I just want to make good money, later I'll worry about working less.

[reasonable_man]

Lol no reason to take offense, what I've heard about stats is that they're the be all end all. Your LS stats aren't impressive; it's reasonable to assume you wouldn't have had a chance. But I'm glad you enjoy what you do and consider yourself successful.

I should probably add that I replied quickly while studying (e.g. my mind was on other things) and not really paying attention and didn't mean to sound condescending, though I realize how it could've come off that way. But just judging from what I've heard like I said unless you're at T14 it's rare to go biglaw, and you were saying before that 80% of people don't.

I'm actually kind of interested if you'd mind sharing with me, how exactly did you approach it in a different way?

For the first few years I just want to make good money, later I'll worry about working less.

Apology accepted. No offense taken. I went to NYU U-grad (huge money-pit), but whatever.. I played a sport, drank, etc. and ended up with so-so grades and a so-so LSAT score. However, I come from a lousy neighborhood in Brooklyn and a single-parent household and have worked every-day of my life from 13 on and for whatever reason have always excelled in a work environment. That said, I knew that if I were going to have any success as a lawyer, it would come from working at it (beyond the walls of a law school). I took my first job at a firm with about 175 lawyers total (but a small NYC office), and worked there for 2 years while at NYU. I moved up from a copy boy to a paralegal on IP and securities cases and developed a reputation for being able to boil down large amounts of financial information into very easy to understand documents that proved very useful at trials/arbitrations. I impressed several people there, who remain close contacts and friends (partners and senior associates mostly).

After getting waitlisted and/or rejected everywhere, I finally got into a small TTTT out of NY. I started school there and also began working at the office of a small solo practitioner with a general practice. I worked for him during the school year and landed myself an summer associate job at a mid-sized firm in NYC, mostly by leveraging all the experience I had and contacting anyone I had met working at my old firm back in NY. I worked my ass off there for 2 summers and after the third summer, telecommute and did work for them during the semester. I also continuously handled (with supervision of course), an extremely complicated case for them from the first week I was there and was still working on that file the day I left (the beginning of this past summer). My work on that case, in particular, set me apart and before I left that firm, I worked for the managing partners of the main office.

At some point during my time there, I realized that I needed way more independence and the ability to a) start to try to develop my own clients; and b) be permitted to work with very little oversight, which meant I needed to find a nice small firm. So after looking for about 6 months with the help of a recruiter and on my own, I finally found a firm that offered what I wanted without having to take a pay-cut, so I moved and am beyond happy in my new role. I had begun to forgot what led me to being a lawyer in the first place, which is an awful thing to have happen. Thankfully, its not a problem for me anymore.

So on here (TLS), I try to be brutally honest. Most graduates of lower ranked law schools will not find success. But, some will become vastly more successful than many graduates of T6 schools. The odds are absolutely stacked against this happening, but its not impossible. The problem is that most people attending lower ranked schools actually believe that success will come from just showing up and doing well in classes. This is simply not the case. If you want to do well for yourself from a low ranked school, you have to make it happen on your own, outside of the walls of your law school.

[M.M.]

Lol no reason to take offense, what I've heard about stats is that they're the be all end all. Your LS stats aren't impressive; it's reasonable to assume you wouldn't have had a chance. But I'm glad you enjoy what you do and consider yourself successful.

I should probably add that I replied quickly while studying (e.g. my mind was on other things) and not really paying attention and didn't mean to sound condescending, though I realize how it could've come off that way. But just judging from what I've heard like I said unless you're at T14 it's rare to go biglaw, and you were saying before that 80% of people don't.

I'm actually kind of interested if you'd mind sharing with me, how exactly did you approach it in a different way?

For the first few years I just want to make good money, later I'll worry about working less.

Apology accepted. No offense taken. I went to NYU U-grad (huge money-pit), but whatever.. I played a sport, drank, etc. and ended up with so-so grades and a so-so LSAT score. However, I come from a lousy neighborhood in Brooklyn and a single-parent household and have worked every-day of my life from 13 on and for whatever reason have always excelled in a work environment. That said, I knew that if I were going to have any success as a lawyer, it would come from working at it (beyond the walls of a law school). I took my first job at a firm with about 175 lawyers total (but a small NYC office), and worked there for 2 years while at NYU. I moved up from a copy boy to a paralegal on IP and securities cases and developed a reputation for being able to boil down large amounts of financial information into very easy to understand documents that proved very useful at trials/arbitrations. I impressed several people there, who remain close contacts and friends (partners and senior associates mostly).

After getting waitlisted and/or rejected everywhere, I finally got into a small TTTT out of NY. I started school there and also began working at the office of a small solo practitioner with a general practice. I worked for him during the school year and landed myself an summer associate job at a mid-sized firm in NYC, mostly by leveraging all the experience I had and contacting anyone I had met working at my old firm back in NY. I worked my ass off there for 2 summers and after the third summer, telecommute and did work for them during the semester. I also continuously handled (with supervision of course), an extremely complicated case for them from the first week I was there and was still working on that file the day I left (the beginning of this past summer). My work on that case, in particular, set me apart and before I left that firm, I worked for the managing partners of the main office.

At some point during my time there, I realized that I needed way more independence and the ability to a) start to try to develop my own clients; and b) be permitted to work with very little oversight, which meant I needed to find a nice small firm. So after looking for about 6 months with the help of a recruiter and on my own, I finally found a firm that offered what I wanted without having to take a pay-cut, so I moved and am beyond happy in my new role. I had begun to forgot what led me to being a lawyer in the first place, which is an awful thing to have happen. Thankfully, its not a problem for me anymore.

So on here (TLS), I try to be brutally honest. Most graduates of lower ranked law schools will not find success. But, some will become vastly more successful than many graduates of T6 schools. The odds are absolutely stacked against this happening, but its not impossible. The problem is that most people attending lower ranked schools actually believe that success will come from just showing up and doing well in classes. This is simply not the case. If you want to do well for yourself from a low ranked school, you have to make it happen on your own, outside of the walls of your law school.

Good post. But it seems that some of the abilities you developed that helped you get to where you are are things you can't simply work on (a natural ability to excel in a work environment, an ability to "boil down" the information that it seems no one else had and if it were possible or easy to be taught they'd try to learn it, networking abilities, a long time in the legal environment before law school and during) so only part of that would really be helpful or doable by me ... but thanks for the help. I'm aiming T3 with a very low chance at getting it, T6 with a low-medium chance, and T14 with a good chance. Coupling a T14 with the advise of people like you on TLS hopefully will help me out.

[pocket herc]

Lol no reason to take offense, what I've heard about stats is that they're the be all end all. Your LS stats aren't impressive; it's reasonable to assume you wouldn't have had a chance. But I'm glad you enjoy what you do and consider yourself successful.

I should probably add that I replied quickly while studying (e.g. my mind was on other things) and not really paying attention and didn't mean to sound condescending, though I realize how it could've come off that way. But just judging from what I've heard like I said unless you're at T14 it's rare to go biglaw, and you were saying before that 80% of people don't.

I'm actually kind of interested if you'd mind sharing with me, how exactly did you approach it in a different way?

For the first few years I just want to make good money, later I'll worry about working less.

Apology accepted. No offense taken. I went to NYU U-grad (huge money-pit), but whatever.. I played a sport, drank, etc. and ended up with so-so grades and a so-so LSAT score. However, I come from a lousy neighborhood in Brooklyn and a single-parent household and have worked every-day of my life from 13 on and for whatever reason have always excelled in a work environment. That said, I knew that if I were going to have any success as a lawyer, it would come from working at it (beyond the walls of a law school). I took my first job at a firm with about 175 lawyers total (but a small NYC office), and worked there for 2 years while at NYU. I moved up from a copy boy to a paralegal on IP and securities cases and developed a reputation for being able to boil down large amounts of financial information into very easy to understand documents that proved very useful at trials/arbitrations. I impressed several people there, who remain close contacts and friends (partners and senior associates mostly).

After getting waitlisted and/or rejected everywhere, I finally got into a small TTTT out of NY. I started school there and also began working at the office of a small solo practitioner with a general practice. I worked for him during the school year and landed myself an summer associate job at a mid-sized firm in NYC, mostly by leveraging all the experience I had and contacting anyone I had met working at my old firm back in NY. I worked my ass off there for 2 summers and after the third summer, telecommute and did work for them during the semester. I also continuously handled (with supervision of course), an extremely complicated case for them from the first week I was there and was still working on that file the day I left (the beginning of this past summer). My work on that case, in particular, set me apart and before I left that firm, I worked for the managing partners of the main office.

At some point during my time there, I realized that I needed way more independence and the ability to a) start to try to develop my own clients; and b) be permitted to work with very little oversight, which meant I needed to find a nice small firm. So after looking for about 6 months with the help of a recruiter and on my own, I finally found a firm that offered what I wanted without having to take a pay-cut, so I moved and am beyond happy in my new role. I had begun to forgot what led me to being a lawyer in the first place, which is an awful thing to have happen. Thankfully, its not a problem for me anymore.

So on here (TLS), I try to be brutally honest. Most graduates of lower ranked law schools will not find success. But, some will become vastly more successful than many graduates of T6 schools. The odds are absolutely stacked against this happening, but its not impossible. The problem is that most people attending lower ranked schools actually believe that success will come from just showing up and doing well in classes. This is simply not the case. If you want to do well for yourself from a low ranked school, you have to make it happen on your own, outside of the walls of your law school.

Good post. But it seems that some of the abilities you developed that helped you get to where you are are things you can't simply work on (a natural ability to excel in a work environment, an ability to "boil down" the information that it seems no one else had and if it were possible or easy to be taught they'd try to learn it, networking abilities, a long time in the legal environment before law school and during) so only part of that would really be helpful or doable by me ... but thanks for the help. I'm aiming T3 with a very low chance at getting it, T6 with a low-medium chance, and T14 with a good chance. Coupling a T14 with the advise of people like you on TLS hopefully will help me out.

have you even gotten your lsat yet?

[CLS2011]

@ CLS do litigators tend to work more ?

They tend to have busier times, and the hours not always predictable. You're working under filing deadlines which, at least for responsive papers, tend to be based on when your adversary files their papers (which is where the unpredictability comes in). When you're approaching one of those deadlines, you will be swamped. You also have the issue, particularly with regards to seeking preliminary relief or a statute of limitations that is about to run, of clients not coming to you with work until it has to be done immediately. If you're about to go to trial, that's going to be horrible hours too.

Those things tend to make reasonable, predictable hours pretty non-existent in a true litigation practice.

[M.M.]

@ CLS do litigators tend to work more ?

They tend to have busier times, and the hours not always predictable. You're working under filing deadlines which, at least for responsive papers, tend to be based on when your adversary files their papers (which is where the unpredictability comes in). When you're approaching one of those deadlines, you will be swamped. You also have the issue, particularly with regards to seeking preliminary relief or a statute of limitations that is about to run, of clients not coming to you with work until it has to be done immediately. If you're about to go to trial, that's going to be horrible hours too.

Those things tend to make reasonable, predictable hours pretty non-existent in a true litigation practice.

Argh.

At the other guy nope I haven't.

[bdubs]

@ CLS do litigators tend to work more ?

They tend to have busier times, and the hours not always predictable. You're working under filing deadlines which, at least for responsive papers, tend to be based on when your adversary files their papers (which is where the unpredictability comes in). When you're approaching one of those deadlines, you will be swamped. You also have the issue, particularly with regards to seeking preliminary relief or a statute of limitations that is about to run, of clients not coming to you with work until it has to be done immediately. If you're about to go to trial, that's going to be horrible hours too.

Those things tend to make reasonable, predictable hours pretty non-existent in a true litigation practice.

This is spot on. Having worked in a litigation environment for the last four years I can tell you it's not for everyone. The deadlines and adversarial environment make it more exciting than transactional work though.

[M.M.]

@ CLS do litigators tend to work more ?

Those things tend to make reasonable, predictable hours pretty non-existent in a true litigation practice.

This is spot on. Having worked in a litigation environment for the last four years I can tell you it's not for everyone. The deadlines and adversarial environment make it more exciting than transactional work though.

could you work in a smaller market to work less hours?