Those of you in the bottom 25% at a T14... Forum

[Anonymous User]

Oof, sorry to hear that. This is just about my worst nightmare.... What would you have done differently?

1. Not listened to Career Services, nor the regional recruiters they set me up with. I was told that Munger Tolles and Irell Manella were probably a bad bet with my transcript, but that MoFo or Latham should be doable. Then I talked to a Quinn Emanuel SA who told me that EIP was all about grades (granted, he was at Quinn.) I think he knew better what he was talking about.

Of course, I didn't bid stupid--Career Services provided this list of underrepresented firms that were touted as more widely accessible, and I worked heavily off that. Still, no dice.

2. Not focused so much on California, even if it is my home state and only significant tie. I keep hearing that New York was relatively easy this year. Not the message I got from Career Services beforehand--they said that New York had been hardest hit by the recession due to its focus on finance, and besides everybody from my school was bidding there. See point 1, supra.

3. Sent out outside-OCI applications earlier. Other people here have been successful sending stuff out as early as May. And I thought I was hot shit for reading Guerrilla Tactics and Nail Your Law Job Interview over the summer.

...I do think Guerrilla Tactics is a good book, though, and without it I'm sure I would've done worse. Somehow. Like, maybe involving spontaneous combustion or something.

HYS grad in same position 30 screeners in NY received 3 CB and I'm 90% sure I struck out on the 1 firm I'm waiting for. Had 2H the rest P's. Started mass-mailing this week and getting rejections because firms are done hiring. Feel really stupid because I had all summer to mass-mail firms but I was so confident that my HYS degree would get my foot in the door. Things I would have done differently:

1. Seriously pursue a 1L summer gig no matter where it is. People who got firms 1L summer went through OCI without a care in the world.

2. Start mass-mailing firms in secondary markets in June-July.

3. Attend every job fair no matter what even if you're the teeniest bit "eligible" for it.

4. Have a mixture of corporate "stuff" on your resume and public interest "stuff". Why? My resume is corporate heavy and now I have to change gears and make it look public interest oriented in order to secure employment this summer.

5. Have a backup plan. I am incredibly grateful to be at HYS but I was lax about career planning, making connections, networking etc because I thought the degree would carry me through, it helps but you need a little something extra.

[Anonymous User]

4. Have a mixture of corporate "stuff" on your resume and public interest "stuff". Why? My resume is corporate heavy and now I have to change gears and make it look public interest oriented in order to secure employment this summer.

Converse situation here, actually. I don't know if you went through something similar, but I just kind of fell into my public interest experience--it was the only kind of position I could get on a sociology major and related faculty research.

I do think it's easier to bulk up public interest than corporate, though, if only because you can volunteer for public interest stuff.

[Holly Golightly]

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[sbalive]

4. Have a mixture of corporate "stuff" on your resume and public interest "stuff". Why? My resume is corporate heavy and now I have to change gears and make it look public interest oriented in order to secure employment this summer.

Converse situation here, actually. I don't know if you went through something similar, but I just kind of fell into my public interest experience--it was the only kind of position I could get on a sociology major and related faculty research.

I do think it's easier to bulk up public interest than corporate, though, if only because you can volunteer for public interest stuff.

One of the most important things to do in developing an interview strategy (and it starts with Writing Your Resume) is how to spin all the public interest work to be as appealing to firm employers as possible -- since getting PI experience is the easiest thing you can do through 1L and in the summer. And it is totally doable, whether it is by emphasizing how you solved problems pragmatically, learned how to work with different kinds of people, assisting with steps of civil rights litigation, or that you did research on a legal problem that is relevant for firms (even if it was on the "other side"), etc. A component of this is volunteering for those PI activities that are most related to firm work, whether corp or lit (indeed independent of your interest in either). This is something that OCS is terrible at doing, because they seem unable to provide this kind of strategic advice.

I'd say the converse is actually true -- PI employers look for very PI-heavy resumes and the ability to demonstrate a real interest in interviews.

[Anonymous User]

You know, you could calculate your GPA and find out if you were above or below 3.0...

But, I don't actually care what it is. If I cared about grades, I wouldn't be in a position to have such poor grades in the first place.

So, you were determined enough to get yourself into CCN, but are such a laid back person that you don't care about grades, but your incredible interview skills managed to cover up this apathy to the tune of double digit callbacks with a sub 3 GPA


Either you're a flame, or you have something beyond belief incredible on your resume.

What does getting myself into CCN have to do with caring about my grades? And, what do either of those have to do with how I come across in an interview? How exactly does not caring about grades equate to apathy? Furthermore, why do you even care?

I don't have anything incredible beyond belief on my resume, and I'm most certainly not a flame. I'm not sure if you're in the CCN range or not, but if you are there's a 2/3 chance we can shake hands. Perhaps that would remove your doubt of my existence.

[worldtraveler]

4. Have a mixture of corporate "stuff" on your resume and public interest "stuff". Why? My resume is corporate heavy and now I have to change gears and make it look public interest oriented in order to secure employment this summer.

Converse situation here, actually. I don't know if you went through something similar, but I just kind of fell into my public interest experience--it was the only kind of position I could get on a sociology major and related faculty research.

I do think it's easier to bulk up public interest than corporate, though, if only because you can volunteer for public interest stuff.

One of the most important things to do in developing an interview strategy (and it starts with writing your resume) is how to spin all the public interest work to be as appealing to firm employers as possible -- since getting PI experience is the easiest thing you can do through 1L and in the summer. And it is totally doable, whether it is by emphasizing how you solved problems pragmatically, learned how to work with different kinds of people, assisting with steps of civil rights litigation, or that you did research on a legal problem that is relevant for firms (even if it was on the "other side"), etc. A component of this is volunteering for those PI activities that are most related to firm work, whether corp or lit (indeed independent of your interest in either). This is something that OCS is terrible at doing, because they seem unable to provide this kind of strategic advice.

I'd say the converse is actually true -- PI employers look for very PI-heavy resumes and the ability to demonstrate a real interest in interviews.

This is also a good argument for why to get involved in pro bono work or to do some kind of volunteer work during law school even if you want to do corporate work. If it doesn't work out, you can still show an interest in PI, which would be much harder to do without any experience.

[12262010]

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[Anonymous User]

Oof, sorry to hear that. This is just about my worst nightmare.... What would you have done differently?

1. Not listened to Career Services, nor the regional recruiters they set me up with. I was told that Munger Tolles and Irell Manella were probably a bad bet with my transcript, but that MoFo or Latham should be doable. Then I talked to a Quinn Emanuel SA who told me that EIP was all about grades (granted, he was at Quinn.) I think he knew better what he was talking about.

Of course, I didn't bid stupid--Career Services provided this list of underrepresented firms that were touted as more widely accessible, and I worked heavily off that. Still, no dice.

2. Not focused so much on California, even if it is my home state and only significant tie. I keep hearing that New York was relatively easy this year. Not the message I got from Career Services beforehand--they said that New York had been hardest hit by the recession due to its focus on finance, and besides everybody from my school was bidding there. See point 1, supra.

3. Sent out outside-OCI applications earlier. Other people here have been successful sending stuff out as early as May. And I thought I was hot shit for reading Guerrilla Tactics and Nail Your Law Job Interview over the summer.

...I do think Guerrilla Tactics is a good book, though, and without it I'm sure I would've done worse. Somehow. Like, maybe involving spontaneous combustion or something.

HYS grad in same position 30 screeners in NY received 3 CB and I'm 90% sure I struck out on the 1 firm I'm waiting for. Had 2H the rest P's. Started mass-mailing this week and getting rejections because firms are done hiring. Feel really stupid because I had all summer to mass-mail firms but I was so confident that my HYS degree would get my foot in the door. Things I would have done differently:

1. Seriously pursue a 1L summer gig no matter where it is. People who got firms 1L summer went through OCI without a care in the world.

2. Start mass-mailing firms in secondary markets in June-July.

3. Attend every job fair no matter what even if you're the teeniest bit "eligible" for it.

4. Have a mixture of corporate "stuff" on your resume and public interest "stuff". Why? My resume is corporate heavy and now I have to change gears and make it look public interest oriented in order to secure employment this summer.

5. Have a backup plan. I am incredibly grateful to be at HYS but I was lax about career planning, making connections, networking etc because I thought the degree would carry me through, it helps but you need a little something extra.

How does Harvard calculate class % without grades?

[John26]

It doesn't until you graduate. And then it uses an ever-changing formula that most recently resembles conventional grades (P = 3, H = 4, DS = 5, etc.).

[Anonymous User]

I've been reading in the Harvard EIP threads about how the admin has been changing up grading systems, and its been messing up peoples assements of their bids and chances. Is that so?

[John26]

I've been reading in the Harvard EIP threads about how the admin has been changing up grading systems, and its been messing up peoples assements of their bids and chances. Is that so?

I'm not sure, I graduated last year. However, I think the change would actually help enlighten employers and students a little bit. I remember my year for OCI employers looking at DS and thinking it meant something like fail ("Did not sit" was one of the guesses). Since a DS is an A+, that couldn't have been farther from the truth. The old (new) system said a DS was a tie-breaker for latin honors, which is just about the dumbest thing ever; the new (new) system at least elevates a DS to something tangible.

The whole "we don't give class ranks" thing is sort of a line, as most firms have some rubric by which to judge the average ratio of Ps to Hs some HLS interviewee should have.

[Anonymous User]

1. Not listened to Career Services, nor the regional recruiters they set me up with. I was told that Munger Tolles and Irell Manella were probably a bad bet with my transcript, but that MoFo or Latham should be doable. Then I talked to a Quinn Emanuel SA who told me that EIP was all about grades (granted, he was at Quinn.) I think he knew better what he was talking about.

Of course, I didn't bid stupid--Career Services provided this list of underrepresented firms that were touted as more widely accessible, and I worked heavily off that. Still, no dice.

2. Not focused so much on California, even if it is my home state and only significant tie. I keep hearing that New York was relatively easy this year. Not the message I got from Career Services beforehand--they said that New York had been hardest hit by the recession due to its focus on finance, and besides everybody from my school was bidding there. See point 1, supra.

3. Sent out outside-OCI applications earlier. Other people here have been successful sending stuff out as early as May. And I thought I was hot shit for reading Guerrilla Tactics and Nail Your Law Job Interview over the summer.

...I do think Guerrilla Tactics is a good book, though, and without it I'm sure I would've done worse. Somehow. Like, maybe involving spontaneous combustion or something.

Not sure which regional recruiter you used or who you talked to at OCS, but I had a way different experience. I also focused on California and have a handful of Hs. Even still, I was told by both the legal recruiter and OCS that firms like MoFo and Latham were targets for me and my grades and firms like Gibson/Munger/Irell would be stretches. Seems strange that you'd have had the same advice with worse grades.

[lawschoollll]

CCN student here. Below Median. 5 CB's, 0 offers.

What matters the most is the market you target. Chicago/DC are very difficult if you're below median. Everywhere else, grades matter significantly less.

Mind outing the school? You're anon after all. Would be helpful for those of us applying to CCN. The consensus seems to be that U of C was rough this year while the NY schools did all right; trying to gauge whether that's accurate. Thanks.

[enygma]

CCN student here. Below Median. 5 CB's, 0 offers.

What matters the most is the market you target. Chicago/DC are very difficult if you're below median. Everywhere else, grades matter significantly less.

Mind outing the school? You're anon after all. Would be helpful for those of us applying to CCN. The consensus seems to be that U of C was rough this year while the NY schools did all right; trying to gauge whether that's accurate. Thanks.

my guess, since i attend neither, is that this probably has an awful lot to do with where the students were trying to end up. chicago was obscenely brutal this year. i know some people with few, if any chicago callbacks, and v25 or even v10 offers in NY.

[IAFG]

Tag

[lawschoollll]

CCN student here. Below Median. 5 CB's, 0 offers.

What matters the most is the market you target. Chicago/DC are very difficult if you're below median. Everywhere else, grades matter significantly less.

Mind outing the school? You're anon after all. Would be helpful for those of us applying to CCN. The consensus seems to be that U of C was rough this year while the NY schools did all right; trying to gauge whether that's accurate. Thanks.

my guess, since i attend neither, is that this probably has an awful lot to do with where the students were trying to end up. chicago was obscenely brutal this year. i know some people with few, if any chicago callbacks, and v25 or even v10 offers in NY.

I wonder what % of U of C students target Chi as their primary market.

[Anonymous User]

1. Seriously pursue a 1L summer gig no matter where it is. People who got firms 1L summer went through OCI without a care in the world.

Is it even possible to get a 1L summer gig anymore? I'm in my first month of law school at NYU/Columbia (don't want to specify) and I'm wondering if it'll be possible at all to score a 1L firm job? How and when do you go about applying for these without any grades under your belt whatsoever? I'm also a black male so I'm not sure if that helps with any diversity programs.

[spondee]

Is it even possible to get a 1L summer gig anymore? I'm in my first month of law school at NYU/Columbia (don't want to specify) and I'm wondering if it'll be possible at all to score a 1L firm job? How and when do you go about applying for these without any grades under your belt whatsoever? I'm also a black male so I'm not sure if that helps with any diversity programs.

Being URM might help. IP folks seem to have the best luck. I'd guess the best approach is to apply to firms in December then follow up in January/February when you have grades. And not let yourself be bothered by rejection because there will be a lot of it. And (at NYU) you can find out through career services' summer job reviews who the 1L SAs were with firms; contact them, and ask how they went about it.

[Anonymous User]

Is it even possible to get a 1L summer gig anymore? I'm in my first month of law school at NYU/Columbia (don't want to specify) and I'm wondering if it'll be possible at all to score a 1L firm job? How and when do you go about applying for these without any grades under your belt whatsoever? I'm also a black male so I'm not sure if that helps with any diversity programs.

This depends a lot on where you went to undergrad and what you did before law school, since firms don't have an objective criteria to judge you guys on. I go to a CCN in New York too and the only people that I know to have worked at a vault-ranked law firm are Harvard, Yale, Princeton type people and/or have significant work experiences.
Having said that, it still is worth trying (since 1L firm job --> less stressful 2L year) if:
1) you apply to ALL NALP firms that say they hire 1Ls
2) in as many cities as you can and
3) Apply as early as possible, which is December 1st.
It's really all about the numbers and you have a cast a wide net. If I could do it again, I would send out close to a 1000 applications to all major firms in all major cities.
Also, you mentioned that you're an URM. If you want a firm job, the best thing out there is the New York City Bar Diversity Fellowship. Look it up. It's possibly the best fellowship out there for minorities aside from SEO.

[Anonymous User]

CCN, between bottom 1/4 and median, but thought I would chime in anyway since I'm pretty sure I struck out at OCI. Split bids between NYC and secondary market. Shut out at secondary, 3 cbs in NY nothing higher than V50, 1 pending 2 rejections.

FWIW I wish I'd, 1) bid on non-selective NY firms with large summer classes, 2) avoided my hometown market even with ties, 3) mass mailed every single V100 office in NYC and all the midlaw firms I'm mailing now, after bidding had closed but before EIP. To pre-OCI me this would have seemed like a Herculean task but now that I've been mass mailing for a few weeks 10 or so apps a day for a week wouldn't have been so bad.

1Ls: To get a biglaw job ITE, even from CCN, you need to set yourself apart somehow. Either you have great grades, WE, an amazing personality, stunning looks, or you just hustle to get a job harder than 95% of your classmates. Right now, there's very little you can do about three of those things, and you don't want to have to do the last one.

[spondee]

I go to a CCN in New York too and the only people that I know to have worked at a vault-ranked law firm are Harvard, Yale, Princeton type people and/or have significant work experiences.

It makes A LOT of sense that firms would look to quality of undergrad (what other criteria do they have to judge?), but of the classmates I know who worked BigLaw as 1Ls, none of them were HYP grads. I dunno. 1L SAs are probably so rare there's no sure criteria.

[Anonymous User]

Either you have great grades, WE, an amazing personality, stunning looks, or you just hustle to get a job harder than 95% of your classmates.

I'm pretty sure you need to do/have at least 3 of the 5 of these. Only 1 of the 5 doesn't seem enough to get 2L SA gigs this year, and 1L gigs are harder to come by.

[Anonymous User]

Either you have great grades, WE, an amazing personality, stunning looks, or you just hustle to get a job harder than 95% of your classmates.

I'm pretty sure you need to do/have at least 3 of the 5 of these. Only 1 of the 5 doesn't seem enough to get 2L SA gigs this year, and 1L gigs are harder to come by.

I don't think it is that bad this year. At least at CCN, most top 33% folks did very well even if they had "normal" personalities (by this I mean passable, but not memorable). And hustling got jobs for a few people I know with normal personalities and median grades.

To get a 1L SA job, you probably need to be a minority or have a connect. Hard science people also seem to do well.

[Anonymous User]

For those who are URMs (which is about 50% of my law school), definitely consider applying to diversity scholarships and bar diversity programs. At Columbia only 2 people applied for the bar diversity program that places 1Ls in firm jobs over the summer, so of course both got accepted. One got V5, one V50.

[Anonymous User]

Either you have great grades, WE, an amazing personality, stunning looks, or you just hustle to get a job harder than 95% of your classmates.

I'm pretty sure you need to do/have at least 3 of the 5 of these. Only 1 of the 5 doesn't seem enough to get 2L SA gigs this year, and 1L gigs are harder to come by.

I don't think it is that bad this year. At least at CCN, most top 33% folks did very well even if they had "normal" personalities (by this I mean passable, but not memorable). And hustling got jobs for a few people I know with normal personalities and median grades.

Good to hear that's happening. I can only speak for my lower T14, but this year, at least 2 of the 5 seem to be necessary.