Page 1 of 3
Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:44 am
by chitown825
I want a job in biglaw. I want the job to pay $160k. Those are my only requirements.
Why do people rank firms, and subsequently care about those rankings? The pay seems to be the same across the board--what is the advantage to clawing for a higher "ranked" firm? What do these rankings even represent?
Sorry for the novice question.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:45 am
by CG614
hahaha... sorry for not providing any help at all, but your post is retarded. That's all.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 am
by miamiman
I don't profess to be an expert on this topic but I think the relevant considerations that firm rankings serve as imperfect proxies are:
1) exit options
2) bonus / salary levels as you advance
3) prestige
4) sophistication (maybe) of work
5) job security
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:56 am
by chitown825
miamiman wrote:I don't profess to be an expert on this topic but I think the relevant considerations that firm rankings serve as imperfect proxies are:
1) exit options (okay, makes sense)
2) bonus / salary levels as you advance (okay, makes sense)
3) prestige (I couldn't care less about how impressive my job sounds to other people--i dont need "prestige" to be happy)
4) sophistication (maybe) of work(maybe, but how different can it be)
5) job security(not buying it--the firms with the most layoffs were generally the high ranking firms)
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:04 am
by Brassica7
0L Warning.
It may also be that some firms have higher profits per partner, which could be a consideration for those who hope to stick with biglaw long term.
Does anyone know if it is easier to make partner at certain firms? I would imagine it is not easier at the higher ranked firms, but I don't know much about this.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:05 am
by nigelfrost
It's just another layer of the law school/lawyer heirarchy. You were filtered with your LSAT and GPA into a school that "matched your potential." You were compartmentalized by grades attached to a handful of end-of-semester tests and competitions like Moot Court and Law Review. Then, when it's time to find a job (after only your first year, mind you) you're further "ranked" by whether a "prestigious" firm is willing to reach down it's conciliatory hand, pull your grateful ass up out of the taint of law school, and give you the "opportunity" to do 2200 billable hours in exchange for cash.
Don't think it stops there either. Remember: once you're an associate, you still aren't a partner.
Have a nice day.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:05 am
by miamiman
Anonymous User wrote:
5) job security(not buying it--the firms with the most layoffs were generally the high ranking firms)
Not that I get tremendous satisfaction in saying, "no, you're wrong", but no, you're wrong. The V10 was the safest place to be in 2009. It's the V20+ that got dicey. ATL ran a story on this; I suggest you do a search on their website.
Also, I'm not here trying to pitch prestige to you. I'm offering up the most often parroted reasons for wanting to work at a top-tier firm. I also couldn't really give a fuck if I worked at a "Vault" firm.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:06 am
by nigelfrost
miamiman wrote:Anonymous User wrote:
5) job security(not buying it--the firms with the most layoffs were generally the high ranking firms)
Not that I get tremendous satisfaction in saying, "no, you're wrong", but no, you're wrong. The V10 was the safest place to be in 2009. It's the V20+ that got dicey. ATL ran a story on this; I suggest you do a search on their website.
Also, I'm not here trying to pitch prestige to you. I'm offering up the most often parroted reasons for wanting to work at a top-tier firm.
I also couldn't really give a fuck if I work at a "Vault" firm.
Fixed.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:08 am
by miamiman
nigelfrost wrote:miamiman wrote:Anonymous User wrote:
5) job security(not buying it--the firms with the most layoffs were generally the high ranking firms)
Not that I get tremendous satisfaction in saying, "no, you're wrong", but no, you're wrong. The V10 was the safest place to be in 2009. It's the V20+ that got dicey. ATL ran a story on this; I suggest you do a search on their website.
Also, I'm not here trying to pitch prestige to you. I'm offering up the most often parroted reasons for wanting to work at a top-tier firm. I
also couldn'treally give a fuck if I worked at a "Vault" firm.
Fixed.
Um, do you know me? No, you don't. Thanks.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:09 am
by nigelfrost
Don't need to. I know law students.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:09 am
by holydonkey
nigelfrost wrote:miamiman wrote:Anonymous User wrote:
5) job security(not buying it--the firms with the most layoffs were generally the high ranking firms)
I
also couldn'treally give a fuck if I worked at a "Vault" firm.
Fixed.
How is making a sentence unintelligible fixing it?
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:11 am
by miamiman
nigelfrost wrote:Don't need to. I know law students.
Oh, OK. You're right -- we're a homogenous group of people.
You also avoid Black people on the street because they're disproportionately associated with felony convictions? Or old, white people because they tend to vote Republican?
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:12 am
by CyLaw
nigelfrost wrote:Don't need to. I know law students.
Because all law students have the same career goals or motivations.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:15 am
by chitown825
This thread once had promise.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:16 am
by CyLaw
miamiman wrote:I don't profess to be an expert on this topic but I think the relevant considerations that firm rankings serve as imperfect proxies are:
1) exit options
2) bonus / salary levels as you advance
3) prestige
4) sophistication (maybe) of work
5) job security
I would also add work place benefits to this list. At least before this economy, firms were having to woe students using something other than money since they mostly paid the same, so they each did their own take on perks while at work (also they never want you to leave and figured proving for you comfort at work would cause you to forget that you had an actual home with family to go back to).
While I am planning a public service career, if I was to work a couple of years at a BigLaw firm, 4 would be my highest criteria.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:17 am
by miamiman
CyLaw wrote:miamiman wrote:I don't profess to be an expert on this topic but I think the relevant considerations that firm rankings serve as imperfect proxies are:
1) exit options
2) bonus / salary levels as you advance
3) prestige
4) sophistication (maybe) of work
5) job security
I would also add work place benefits to this list. At least before this economy, firms were having to woe students using something other than money since they mostly paid the same, so they each did their own take on perks while at work (also they never want you to leave and figured proving for you comfort at work would cause you to forget that you had an actual home with family to go back to).
While I am planning a public service career, if I was to work a couple of years at a BigLaw firm, 4 would be my highest criteria.
Yes, things like bar prepreimbursement tend to be more generous the higher up you go.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:20 am
by KibblesAndVick
You seem to be entering law for all of the right reasons. Your priorities are straight and with such a clearly defined goal I don't see how you could end up disappointed.
As for firm rankings, they're just another way insecure lawyers try to one up each other. They're all so concerned with how much they're banking that they feel the need to tell everyone which school they went to (undergrad and law school), where they work, what car they drive, the number of women they've slept with, and how all of these things outshine your relative performances. Look up your local personal injury lawyer. That guy is raking in several times as much as the "prestige whores" at elite firms.
At the end of the day it's about doing me. Everyone knows lawyers are loaded so if that's what you want you've come to the right place.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:23 am
by trialjunky
Why is the OP anonymous??
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:23 am
by chitown825
KibblesAndVick wrote:Everyone knows lawyers are loaded
There is another 90% of your graduating class
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:28 am
by CyLaw
chitown825 wrote:KibblesAndVick wrote:Everyone knows lawyers are loaded
There is another 90% of your graduating class
You may want to turn your sarcasm detector to its fully on position.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:29 am
by chitown825
trialjunky wrote:Why is the OP anonymous??
Because of predictable responses like this:
CG614 wrote:hahaha... sorry for not providing any help at all, but your post is retarded. That's all.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:30 am
by chitown825
CyLaw wrote:chitown825 wrote:KibblesAndVick wrote:Everyone knows lawyers are loaded
There is another 90% of your graduating class
You may want to turn your sarcasm detector to its fully on position.
A sarcasm detector? Oh, that's a
really useful invention.
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:49 am
by nigelfrost
I really love that this thread is dominated by speculative 0Ls who have yet to pass through the fires of OCI. Give it a little over a year and questions like "Why do firm rankings matter?" will be easily answered with "Because we let them matter. Now, leave me alone and let me finish submitting my 534th job application."
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:14 am
by como
Law firm rankings matter because they are a proxy for law firm prestige. Law firm prestige matters because these are SERVICE providers. I know it is easy to forget, but being a lawyer entails providing a service for a client. The services are very generally speaking the same, but some people are much better than others OR some firms have well-established relationships with clients who believe that they are getting better bang for their buck.
It's that simple.
Top firms have top clients who believe they are getting top legal services. More work is therefore given to these firms, their lawyers make money, but more importantly, they stay employed. Look at how many lawyers were let go at Wachtell..
Re: Why do firm rankings matter?
Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:24 am
by chitown825
como wrote:Law firm rankings matter because they are a proxy for law firm prestige. Law firm prestige matters because these are SERVICE providers. I know it is easy to forget, but being a lawyer entails providing a service for a client. The services are very generally speaking the same, but some people are much better than others OR some firms have well-established relationships with clients who believe that they are getting better bang for their buck.
It's that simple.
Top firms have top clients who believe they are getting top legal services. More work is therefore given to these firms, their lawyers make money, but more importantly, they stay employed. Look at how many lawyers were let go at Wachtell..
Great answer. I just cringe at the word "prestige"