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3.9????? Come on... really?

lawschoollll wrote:3.9????? Come on... really?

Isn't that like top 40% at NU

srsly though, OP, no link? Really?

I've looked at the data. It's self-reported and only about 2/3 of the class, and it's median data for callbacks.

A great number of firms have median callback GPAs north of 3.7.

Personally, I feel this is a combination of 1) self reporting bias and 2) the fact that the top of the class is going to get a bazillion callbacks. But since the top of the class can only accept one offer each, I think this particular data set may paint too bleak a portrait.

But yes, NU released the median callback GPA for most/all firms in 2009, and they were horrifyingly high. I'm not sure what more idle speculation in this post can do unless somebody actually posts them and/or comparisons to the older data (I for one am not).

*vomits*

Anonymous User wrote:I've looked at the data. It's self-reported and only about 2/3 of the class, and it's median data for callbacks.

A great number of firms have median callback GPAs north of 3.7.

Personally, I feel this is a combination of 1) self reporting bias and 2) the fact that the top of the class is going to get a bazillion callbacks. But since the top of the class can only accept one offer each, I think this particular data set may paint too bleak a portrait.

But yes, NU released the median callback GPA for most/all firms in 2009, and they were horrifyingly high. I'm not sure what more idle speculation in this post can do unless somebody actually posts them and/or comparisons to the older data (I for one am not).

yeah, it's definitely horrifying at first glance, but when you think about it, median isn't really that valuable of a number. it's not the median GPA of people who ended up accepting offers from the firm, it's the median for callbacks. i'm sure that the median GPA of almost every school is going to be higher for admitted students than for enrolled students, for instance. the spreadsheet does also provide information on the minimum GPA for callbacks to firms, and that portrait is not nearly so bleak.

keep in mind they told us that ~60% of students got a job through OCI in 2009.

.

It is certainly scary that firms with medians around a 3.4 two years ago are now around 3.8, and firms with 3.7s are now 4.0s. But I think you have to put this in perspective. In particular you need to read this stuff in conjunction with the number of NU students who got jobs through OCI last year. (I can't remember what it was, but I think it was about a third, which is about 80-90 students) A 3.9 is about top 5% I would say, maybe higher. Given that there are probably less than 20 students in this group, my guess is that each of them got a ton of callbacks, and each of them can only take one summer position. So, the median is probably misleading, given that the minimum for many of the firms was about 3.3-3.4.

Also, there were some firms where the high was 3.4. So there is still hope for those at or below median if you don't mind working for a less fancy firm.

[thread now moot]

^^^ TCR, as usual.

I know it's scary, but read the data carefully and don't lose your head.

To add to the points TTT-LS made:

1) Just be thankful you have data. OCS at certain peer schools have either not given out data at all, or averaged in 2009 data with years of prior data.

2) The 2009 data is pretty incomplete, and focuses on Chicago, which everyone knows now was a disaster, but people probably didn't at the time of '09 OCI.

mistergoft wrote:

lawschoollll wrote:3.9????? Come on... really?

Isn't that like top 40% at NU

srsly though, OP, no link? Really?

haha

But yeah, there is a ton of grade inflation at NU, so I guess a median callback GPA of 3.6-3.7, according to the other post, doesn't sound THAT scary, I guess. A 3.6 at NU is about a 3.4 at other schools (after 1L year) in the t-14, excluding Cornell, Penn, Georgetown, and some others also with grade inflation. Still, it doesn't sound promising, since that suggests only roughly the top 1/3 got callbacks, not offers.

Anonymous User wrote:

mistergoft wrote:

lawschoollll wrote:3.9????? Come on... really?

Isn't that like top 40% at NU

srsly though, OP, no link? Really?

haha

But yeah, there is a ton of grade inflation at NU, so I guess a median callback GPA of 3.6-3.7, according to the other post, doesn't sound THAT scary, I guess. A 3.6 at NU is about a 3.4 at other schools (after 1L year) in the t-14, excluding Cornell, Penn, Georgetown, and some others also with grade inflation.

I mean it's scary when you consider that V10s were hiring people the last two years that now Fried Frank might ding for their GPA, but it's not "zomg top 5% for biglaw" scary.

edit: didn't mean to be anon

Anonymous User wrote:

mistergoft wrote:

lawschoollll wrote:3.9????? Come on... really?

Isn't that like top 40% at NU

srsly though, OP, no link? Really?

haha

But yeah, there is a ton of grade inflation at NU, so I guess a median callback GPA of 3.6-3.7, according to the other post, doesn't sound THAT scary, I guess. A 3.6 at NU is about a 3.4 at other schools (after 1L year) in the t-14, excluding Cornell, Penn, Georgetown, and some others also with grade inflation.

It's not grade inflation. NU just has a very high standard deviation. It means the curve is spread out, but half the class still has under a 3.3. You just can't make straight comparisons, because a 3.3 at NU is equal to a 3.3 at almost any other school.

disco_barred wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

mistergoft wrote:

lawschoollll wrote:3.9????? Come on... really?

Isn't that like top 40% at NU

srsly though, OP, no link? Really?

haha

But yeah, there is a ton of grade inflation at NU, so I guess a median callback GPA of 3.6-3.7, according to the other post, doesn't sound THAT scary, I guess. A 3.6 at NU is about a 3.4 at other schools (after 1L year) in the t-14, excluding Cornell, Penn, Georgetown, and some others also with grade inflation.

It's not grade inflation. NU just has a very high standard deviation. It means the curve is spread out, but half the class still has under a 3.3. You just can't make straight comparisons, because a 3.3 at NU is equal to a 3.3 at almost any other school.

If that's the case, I guess the upper 40% have inflated grades then?

But serious answer, I think NU, Cornell, and Georgetown all have grade inflation.

[thread now moot]

You have to put things in context. Cornell posted data recently showing that about 45% of folks got a biglaw 2L SA. In such a scenario, the top 15% will get a ton of callbacks, the top 35% will get some, and people between that and median might wring out out an offer from a handful of callbacks. The scenario is unlikely to be much different at the rest of T7-14. It's just ITE.

But you knew (or should have known) this going in. The numbers coming in from Cornell, Duke (which had 40% V100) are actually better than a lot of people projected for 2009 OCI. All you can do at this point is bid intelligently and make sure you cover your bases in your job search.

Can we get info on the data. Links/Posts/etc...

UChicagoStudent wrote:Can we get info on the data. Links/Posts/etc...

I'd be interested to see this, too.

UChicagoStudent wrote:Can we get info on the data. Links/Posts/etc...

Oh shit, yeah, sorry, we forgot to post the link to the extremely private data that many career services offices don't even give out to their own students. Our bad. Let's just dig those up now.

If y'all are asking about the Cornell data, those have been leaked. See Abovethelaw.com for 9 Jul 2010, 11:03am.

rayiner wrote:You have to put things in context. Cornell posted data recently showing that about 45% of folks got a biglaw 2L SA. In such a scenario, the top 15% will get a ton of callbacks, the top 35% will get some, and people between that and median might wring out out an offer from a handful of callbacks. The scenario is unlikely to be much different at the rest of T7-14. It's just ITE.

But you knew (or should have known) this going in. The numbers coming in from Cornell, Duke (which had 40% V100) are actually better than a lot of people projected for 2009 OCI. All you can do at this point is bid intelligently and make sure you cover your bases in your job search.

Cornell supposedly placed 40%, not 45%. Still shit though, considering most people are paying sticker, or close to it.

Anonymous User wrote:

rayiner wrote:You have to put things in context. Cornell posted data recently showing that about 45% of folks got a biglaw 2L SA. In such a scenario, the top 15% will get a ton of callbacks, the top 35% will get some, and people between that and median might wring out out an offer from a handful of callbacks. The scenario is unlikely to be much different at the rest of T7-14. It's just ITE.

But you knew (or should have known) this going in. The numbers coming in from Cornell, Duke (which had 40% V100) are actually better than a lot of people projected for 2009 OCI. All you can do at this point is bid intelligently and make sure you cover your bases in your job search.

Cornell supposedly placed 40%, not 45%. Still shit though, considering most people are paying sticker, or close to it.

This is just to say that Cornell is shit then, not shit ITE. Because, as the link posted in the ATL article showed, just over 40% of Cornell grads got biglaw before the economy died.

either way, this is not relevant to this discussion, because we are talking about stuff that has dramatically changed in the last couple of years, not stuff that has remained pretty much the same.

Person wrote:This is just to say that Cornell is shit then, not shit ITE. Because, as the link posted in the ATL article showed, just over 40% of Cornell grads got biglaw before the economy died.

How many times does this need to be spelled out?

Every year, a law school has two populations of students: Those spending their 2nd summer as summer associates and those graduating beginning work as associates.

Cornell historically placed 40-60% or so into associate positions UPON GRADUATION. Cornell historically placed 80%+ into associate positions DURING THE SECOND SUMMER.

Do you see why these numbers are so bad now? if 40% of the students got summer positions, some will: not be offered, take fed govt jobs instead, go on to clerkships, go on to PI work upon graduation.

Do you understand? Placing only 40% into summer associate positions is a devastating drop. The problem is schools rarely reported publicly the percentage of their class that got summer positions, only the percentage upon graduation, and people are making improper comparisons all over TLS.