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I am a rising 3L at a T30 school. I am just outside the top 10% and am an executive editor on a secondary journal in which I was published last year. I had a number of interviews with T100 law firms last year during OCIs but didn't receive an offer. Having had many interviews scheduled, I did not apply to any midlaw firms (at the time we didn't really know the SA programs would be cut so drastically, obviously a mistake). Subsequently, I was unable to get a job at a smaller law firm as well. I did get a job with the SEC, but the office I am at doesn't hire new graduates. My question is what kind of prospects do I have for post-graduate employment? Does anyone know what 3L biglaw hiring is going to look like or when the best time to send resumes would be? I am beginning to apply to some midsized law firms and plan on applying to government positions as well. I hope to get a federal clerkship (which I have planned to try to do all along), but they have gotten so competitive recently I'm not so sure I will get one. Any advice on that front or any other advice would be appreciated. I hope that rising 2Ls will learn from my experience and apply very broadly no matter how promising their interviews look.

Sounds like you might have missed the biglaw train....sorry to hear about that. I'd probably resign myself to smaller and midsized firms as well as state and federal government.

In the past you would've been looking at a golden ticket but ITE you might have to settle for 70-80k.

General Tso wrote: In the past you would've been looking at a golden ticket but ITE you might have to settle for 70-80k.

ha ha ha

I would literally murder someone for a 70k a year job. That IS a golden ticket. Editor position might help, but thinking someone can get ANY firm without law review after missing 2L OCI (and even then it's not easy) is a bit naive. Unless someone in your family runs a small personal injury or crim defense firm, I haven't encountered anyone who knows of it happening or being possible. I haven't found any small firms hiring to begin with, outside of taking laterals that have years of experience.

But OP, I know how you feel, so let's brain storm. Maybe we can open our own firm up and come up with a good billboard campaign?

really? top 10% T-30 no hopes for employment whatsoever? Listen, it's possible, but it is also possible that OP will have success finding something. This is a little bit overblown

pocket herc wrote:really? top 10% T-30 no hopes for employment whatsoever? Listen, it's possible, but it is also possible that OP will have success finding something. This is a little bit overblown

Not no hopes of anything (although I've yet to find a single job to even apply to yet in a similar position), but no hopes of making $80k a year from a law firm, unless there are special circumstances (URM, IP, Family connection).

Also, if OP's school is very strong in its home market, this may help. Edgar, you may be getting a little ahead of yourself, not that you are entirely off base

pocket herc wrote:really? top 10% T-30 no hopes for employment whatsoever? Listen, it's possible, but it is also possible that OP will have success finding something. This is a little bit overblown

Here is the thing at a small firm... many will not hire you with great credentials. They know you're just there until something better comes along. You obviously didn't go to Yale to practice low end personal injury in a 3 lawyer shop. Plus many top credential candidates think their shit doesn't stink and that they're doing the small firm a favor by being there.

I've seen some biglaw hire rising 3Ls. Not often, but I've seen it.

AJRESQ wrote:

pocket herc wrote:really? top 10% T-30 no hopes for employment whatsoever? Listen, it's possible, but it is also possible that OP will have success finding something. This is a little bit overblown

Here is the thing at a small firm... many will not hire you with great credentials. They know you're just there until something better comes along. You obviously didn't go to Yale to practice low end personal injury in a 3 lawyer shop. Plus many top credential candidates think their shit doesn't stink and that they're doing the small firm a favor by being there.

I've seen some biglaw hire rising 3Ls. Not often, but I've seen it.

well, this may be true for young attorneys, but it isn't true for ones with experience. one of the attorneys at my small summer firm went to a T10 school, got a federal clerkship, and worked at Skadden for a few years.

General Tso wrote:

AJRESQ wrote:

pocket herc wrote:really? top 10% T-30 no hopes for employment whatsoever? Listen, it's possible, but it is also possible that OP will have success finding something. This is a little bit overblown

Here is the thing at a small firm... many will not hire you with great credentials. They know you're just there until something better comes along. You obviously didn't go to Yale to practice low end personal injury in a 3 lawyer shop. Plus many top credential candidates think their shit doesn't stink and that they're doing the small firm a favor by being there.

I've seen some biglaw hire rising 3Ls. Not often, but I've seen it.

well, this may be true for young attorneys, but it isn't true for ones with experience. one of the attorneys at my small summer firm went to a T10 school, got a federal clerkship, and worked at Skadden for a few years.

Yes, very true. Lots of former biglaw end up in small law firms for various reasons.

I'm hoping for the clerkship. I do know a few state judges pretty well. Working for the SEC shouldn't hurt, if any firms do decide they need some 3Ls. I am getting some interviews still for some decent jobs. I really want to clerk though, so I feel like I might have to make a decision before I really know all my options.

atkinsa wrote:I am a rising 3L at a T30 school. I am just outside the top 10% and am an executive editor on a secondary journal in which I was published last year.

atkinsa wrote:I'm hoping for the clerkship.

Federal clerkships are very likely out. There were 1,200 positions last year and 410,000 applications for federal clerkships. This year is expected to be substantially more competitive. State clerkships are possible, but state supreme court clerkships are also a lot more competitive than people on TLS give them credit for (and a lot of them won't do the one to two year term clerkship thing that federal judges typically do, meaning out of those 7 judges in the state you want, only maybe one or two might be hiring). Below state supreme court clerkships, there's really no shot at biglaw.

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NYAssociate wrote:In general, 3L OCI will be far better than last year's, though that's not saying much. There will be firms at top schools seriously looking for 3Ls.

Not true at all. I attend a national t10, and we have a total of around 14 law firm offices even willing to interview 3Ls, and they will continue to drop before OCI happens. I think getting even 1 interview would take a lot of luck with those numbers considering at least 200 people are going to try and participate and there is a limited number of slots those 14 offices have reserved for 3Ls (i.e. they want to mostly interview 2Ls). In comparison, there are nearly 500 offices interviewing 2Ls..

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XxSpyKEx wrote:

atkinsa wrote:I am a rising 3L at a T30 school. I am just outside the top 10% and am an executive editor on a secondary journal in which I was published last year.

atkinsa wrote:I'm hoping for the clerkship.

Federal clerkships are very likely out. There were 1,200 positions last year and 410,000 applications for federal clerkships. This year is expected to be substantially more competitive. State clerkships are possible, but state supreme court clerkships are also a lot more competitive than people on TLS give them credit for (and a lot of them won't do the one to two year term clerkship thing that federal judges typically do, meaning out of those 7 judges in the state you want, only maybe one or two might be hiring). Below state supreme court clerkships, there's really no shot at biglaw.

there's 45,000 law grads per year, and if you figure 10% of them are applying for clerkships, that works out to about 100 clerkship applications per clerkship seeker. Is that accurate?

General Tso wrote:Sounds like you might have missed the biglaw train....sorry to hear about that. I'd probably resign myself to smaller and midsized firms as well as state and federal government.

In the past you would've been looking at a golden ticket but ITE you might have to settle for 70-80k.

While op might find this... might... Its way more likely that op is looking at ID or personal injury work starting at about 50k per year. The TLS misconception that you can miss biglaw and still rock 70 to 80k in this economy without having abandoned the biglaw dream years ago and started actively seeking out this type of mid-level employment is pretty sad.

edgarderby wrote:
I would literally murder someone for a 70k a year job.

XxSpyKEx wrote: Below state supreme court clerkships, there's really no shot at biglaw.

I've seen some people get biglaw and boutique litigation (paying biglaw) after doing a state intermediate appellate clerkship.

General Tso wrote:there's 45,000 law grads per year, and if you figure 10% of them are applying for clerkships, that works out to about 100 clerkship applications per clerkship seeker. Is that accurate?

Many people send out dozens of clerkship applications, yes. As for the 10% of 45,000 number, that's just too much guesswork. Substantially more than 10% at the higher school, and substantially less at the lower, so it's too hard to pin it down.

It's also different for everyone. Some people will apply off-plan or via connections and have like 2-3 applications total. Others will apply to their schools limit, have no luck, get it lifted, and continue drowning the sky out with clerkship applications. But it's a big, messy process.

NYAssociate wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

NYAssociate wrote:In general, 3L OCI will be far better than last year's, though that's not saying much. There will be firms at top schools seriously looking for 3Ls.

Not true at all. I attend a national t10, and we have a total of around 14 law firm offices even willing to interview 3Ls, and they will continue to drop before OCI happens. I think getting even 1 interview would take a lot of luck with those numbers considering at least 200 people are going to try and participate and there is a limited number of slots those 14 offices have reserved for 3Ls (i.e. they want to mostly interview 2Ls). In comparison, there are nearly 500 offices interviewing 2Ls..

Yeah, you're not really getting what I'm saying.

I said it will be better than last year's 3L OCI, "though that's not saying much." Yes, there will be just as few interviews as last year. If I'm not mistaken, however, (and someone correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge of last year's 3L OCI is anecdotal) there was somewhere between 1 to 3 offers made from big firms at Harvard last year. Since I know, for a fact, firms that need 3Ls, and since I know they are going to be making more offers than 1 to 3, and they will be extending them to schools that are not HYS (though perhaps not MVBP), this year's 3L OCI will be better.

Bear in mind that the successful candidate profile will be tough to match. The typical strike-out (low grades from top school) from 2L OCI will probably strike out again. But I strongly encourage rising 3Ls to take it seriously. It won't be gangbusters like 2006 or whatever, but there will be offers.

So even if there is something like 15 offers nationwide to 3Ls, you think that is something that people who missed OCI during 2L should take seriously, such as the OP, who is at a t30 outside of the top 10% and not even on law review?

reasonable_man wrote:

General Tso wrote:Sounds like you might have missed the biglaw train....sorry to hear about that. I'd probably resign myself to smaller and midsized firms as well as state and federal government.

In the past you would've been looking at a golden ticket but ITE you might have to settle for 70-80k.

While op might find this... might... Its way more likely that op is looking at ID or personal injury work starting at about 50k per year. The TLS misconception that you can miss biglaw and still rock 70 to 80k in this economy without having abandoned the biglaw dream years ago and started actively seeking out this type of mid-level employment is pretty sad.

You can, a few years out. If you miss biglaw, don't expect to make more than $50k as a first year. I don't know why biglaw pays first year associates so much, but yet I digress...

I wrote a post about this on JDU, but it's hard for a law firm to realize your salary at $50k as a first year. Too much time gets written off, you don't have a book, and the more seasoned attorneys spend a lot of time training you. A few years out, $75k - $80k is about right. Most small firms will pay you a base salary and then you make up for it with billable incentives, business generation, etc. Basically, you build a profitable practice. Even if your base is around $60k a few years out, you should be able to do enough stuff to make more. However, if you're just showing up to work, servicing someone else's clients, and then expect to make $100k a year it ain't gonna happen. Your salary and anything in addition to it has to be realized.

It really depends on your practice areas, though. It's hard to make that kind of money in say, family law, because your average client probably pays the firm $3k - $5k. Conversely, in commercial litigation, your average matter will be between $10k and $30k. Your first job is very important because those are the practice areas you will develop. Those are also the relationships you will develop, and your colleagues will view you as "that type" of lawyer. If I view you as a family law lawyer, I will refer you my family law stuff -- not my commercial stuff, not my personal injury stuff, not my employment stuff, not my criminal stuff. Plus, there are way too many attorneys in "easy" practice areas like family law, criminal law, immigration, etc. Those areas also don't pay that well, but they're easy and you have to get a lot of individuals rather than consistent clients. I mean, how many divorces are you going to have over the course of your life? Conversely, insurance companies have new legal matters every single day...

So, is there any benefit in doing state clerkships when you plan on living and working in that state indefinitely? I mean, even lower than appellate level? It seems like it would help for employment in general, even if not biglaw. Maybe for midlaw......

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A'nold wrote:So, is there any benefit in doing state clerkships when you plan on living and working in that state indefinitely? I mean, even lower than appellate level? It seems like it would help for employment in general, even if not biglaw. Maybe for midlaw......

Oh yeah. It'll make you a better attorney, you'll have a lot of experience with local firms, you'll have an opportunity to get to know the judge. Clerking for a federal judge can blow open the gates at big law, clerking for a not-federal judge is still a terrific experience if you're building a career the old fashioned way.

reasonable_man wrote:

General Tso wrote:Sounds like you might have missed the biglaw train....sorry to hear about that. I'd probably resign myself to smaller and midsized firms as well as state and federal government.

In the past you would've been looking at a golden ticket but ITE you might have to settle for 70-80k.

While op might find this... might... Its way more likely that op is looking at ID or personal injury work starting at about 50k per year. The TLS misconception that you can miss biglaw and still rock 70 to 80k in this economy without having abandoned the biglaw dream years ago and started actively seeking out this type of mid-level employment is pretty sad.

Also a TLS misconception is that all markets are the same as NYC. I would argue that 65-75k is the norm for most non-biglaw new lawyers in CA.