Top Law Schools

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... the+Law%29

You have to go to abovethe law to check out the attachments... Here is part of the article:


Biglaw Employment Prospects for Top Law School Grads:
A Cornell Case Study (and a Debate)
By David Lat & Elie Mystal

Share.Cornell Law School recently circulated to its students in the class of 2012 — i.e., rising 2Ls –a list of class of 2010 and 2011 members who landed jobs through the fall recruiting process. Most of these positions, not surprisingly, are at large law firms (aka “Biglaw”). The class of 2010 graduates will presumably be working for their firms in a few months (or in a year or so, if they’ve been deferred); the class of 2011 students are presumably summer associates at their firms right now.

Many law schools circulate such lists to their students. This gives rising 2Ls an opportunity to connect with graduates or fellow students and maybe learn a little bit more about law firms before fall recruiting really heats up.

The Cornell Law employment lists offer an interesting snapshot of the employment prospects for students and graduates of a top law school. The lists provide the name of the graduate or student, their law firm employer, the city they’ll be working in, and the graduate or student’s email address. We have reprinted the lists, but with names and email addresses redacted, after the jump.

Should Cornell Law students be pleased or pissed off by their school’s track record at Biglaw placement? We hear from one CLS student and then debate the question, also after the jump.


The Cornell employment lists are reprinted below, in slideshow form. Before you check them out, consider these caveats, excerpted from the career service office’s introduction to the lists (reprinted in full at the end of this post):

[P]lease note that this list includes only students working at law firms that either (1) participate in our Fall Recruiting events; or (2) may hire students as a result of independent outreach at this time of year. We also have students working for other types of employers (including small firms, government, public sector, and corporations) who would likely be happy to share their experiences with you. Should you wish to be connected with students working for employers who hire through means other than Fall Recruiting, please speak to a counselor.
We took the lists and counted up all the class of 2010 graduates and class of 2011 students appearing on them, who roughly represent the number of people who obtained permanent or summer jobs in Biglaw (one can quibble at the margins about whether particular employers constitute “Biglaw”; we don’t get into this). We came up with these numbers (but feel free to email us with corrections if our count is off):

■Class of 2010: 123 members

■Class of 2011: 86 members
Cornell has around 600 enrolled students, about 200 per class year. You crunch these numbers and you see that the class of 2010 came in at just over 60% (subject to deferrals, or course), and the class of 2011 is around 40%.

What about the fact that the list only represents students who “volunteered” to be contacted? Do the employment prospects for Cornell grads look better if we include people who got Biglaw jobs but were unwilling to be contacted? One tipster doesn’t think so:

I looked through the list for folks missing. I found two. The unofficial word from Career Services — spoken only to those who asked directly — was that approximately 40% of the class of 2011 got BigLaw.
So what does this all mean for Cornell rising 3Ls? A current Cornell student, in the class of 2011, opines:

I consider the Class of 2011 numbers as rough precursors to what the “employed at graduation” numbers will be. I know of (maybe) a dozen folks who are planning on government or non-profit work of some kind. If everyone at BigLaw right now is lucky enough to get offers, that would put us at about 45-50% employment.

For the rest of us, the advice coming out of Career Services has been “network” and “send your resumes to small firms.” A ten-year-old could give that advice. Will the Cornell Law Class of 2011 have 50% employment at graduation? No, we’ll be a lot better than that. Even I’m not so pessimistic. But will that other 50% have a job that justifies the cost of a Cornell law education? F**k no.
The unhappy Cornellian adds:

Career Services, of course, did not share this list with the Class of 2011, but only with the Class of 2012. They don’t want us rising 3Ls to know just how shitty a job they did.

Let it be a word of wisdom to the idiots who would still come to law school ITE: yes, it really did get that fucking bad that fucking quickly.
Hold on a sec. Are things really this grim — or this simple? Two of your editors debate

Lat's thoughts are helpful and solid. Of course, I'd expect a former 9th Circuit clerk/Wachtell associate/AUSA to be pretty thoughtful (better than that other Deb dropout they've got working that blog).

What would really be something is if we could see the numbers for people who will actually be working on 01/01/2011... Bet you it'd be around 15%... If that doesn't get people to wake up, I don't know what will.

on_ne_sait_jamais wrote:What would really be something is if we could see the numbers for people who will actually be working on 01/01/2011... Bet you it'd be around 15%... If that doesn't get people to wake up, I don't know what will.

What group do you believe will be 15% employed at the start of 2011?

If only there were ways to make money outside of BIGLAW...

Look, if your only reason for going to law school is because you want a BIGLAW job making $160k a year, don't go to law school. Don't do it. Go to law school because you want to be a lawyer -- regardless of biglaw or small law. For the majority of lawyers, law is not lucrative for the first 5 - 7 years. For many biglaw associates, law is lucrative for the first 5 years and then you get laid off or aren't "partnership material" and you're making $45k a year as a newly minted solo.

Also, not much Cornell can do to make law firms hire. Prestige of your degree doesn't generate cash flow. Law is a profession. You provide professional services to clients. If clients aren't willing to pay you for those services, you're unemployed.

You guys might not like this, but many clients are jumping ship from biglaw firms. They don't want to pay a first year associate $400 an hour and a partner $650 an hour and be billed every time one of them so much has a dream about the case. There is NO justification to charge a client $400 an hour for a first year associate. For the first time ever, many biglaw firms are willing to drop their rates in order to retain clients. This creates less of a demand and profit margin on first year associates, who are essentially useless. The outrageous gravy train of biglaw is over -- they're going to drop their rates and cut the fat in order to survive.

The bad news for you is that a law degree, no matter where it's from, more and more is not a guaranteed six figure salary out of law school. You're going to have to earn it and struggle for awhile.

afghan007 wrote:

on_ne_sait_jamais wrote:What would really be something is if we could see the numbers for people who will actually be working on 01/01/2011... Bet you it'd be around 15%... If that doesn't get people to wake up, I don't know what will.

What group do you believe will be 15% employed at the start of 2011?

Sorry I was extrapolating deferrals to the class of 2011 from the class of 2010 and failed epically. My post above makes no sense sorry I'm am blinded by the dark horizon...

afghan007 wrote:

on_ne_sait_jamais wrote:What would really be something is if we could see the numbers for people who will actually be working on 01/01/2011... Bet you it'd be around 15%... If that doesn't get people to wake up, I don't know what will.

What group do you believe will be 15% employed at the start of 2011?

What is your logic behind the 15% number? Stop throwing numbers around and just write an explanation.

Cornell typically has about 190 graduates each year, so this is about 45% getting NYC biglaw SAs. Huge fall from 80% during the boom, but actually marginally better than I expected.

AJRESQ wrote:If only there were ways to make money outside of BIGLAW...

Look, if your only reason for going to law school is because you want a BIGLAW job making $160k a year, don't go to law school. Don't do it. Go to law school because you want to be a lawyer -- regardless of biglaw or small law. For the majority of lawyers, law is not lucrative for the first 5 - 7 years. For many biglaw associates, law is lucrative for the first 5 years and then you get laid off or aren't "partnership material" and you're making $45k a year as a newly minted solo.

Also, not much Cornell can do to make law firms hire. Prestige of your degree doesn't generate cash flow. Law is a profession. You provide professional services to clients. If clients aren't willing to pay you for those services, you're unemployed.

You guys might not like this, but many clients are jumping ship from biglaw firms. They don't want to pay a first year associate $400 an hour and a partner $650 an hour and be billed every time one of them so much has a dream about the case. There is NO justification to charge a client $400 an hour for a first year associate. For the first time ever, many biglaw firms are willing to drop their rates in order to retain clients. This creates less of a demand and profit margin on first year associates, who are essentially useless. The outrageous gravy train of biglaw is over -- they're going to drop their rates and cut the fat in order to survive.

The bad news for you is that a law degree, no matter where it's from, more and more is not a guaranteed six figure salary out of law school. You're going to have to earn it and struggle for awhile.

This is a GOOD POINT. But if Cornell is this bad, what about other T1/T2 schools. Those poor students!

rayiner wrote:Cornell typically has about 190 graduates each year, so this is about 45% getting NYC biglaw SAs. Huge fall from 80% during the boom, but actually marginally better than I expected.

well, the numbers are what have been throwing around TLS...

Well, these numbers are better than many, including me, have been throwing around. It is very nice to see some actual data on this, rather than mere speculation or heresay. But it's still a pretty depressing picture all things considered.

AJRESQ wrote:If only there were ways to make money outside of BIGLAW...

Look, if your only reason for going to law school is because you want a BIGLAW job making $160k a year, don't go to law school. Don't do it. Go to law school because you want to be a lawyer -- regardless of biglaw or small law. For the majority of lawyers, law is not lucrative for the first 5 - 7 years. For many biglaw associates, law is lucrative for the first 5 years and then you get laid off or aren't "partnership material" and you're making $45k a year as a newly minted solo.

Also, not much Cornell can do to make law firms hire. Prestige of your degree doesn't generate cash flow. Law is a profession. You provide professional services to clients. If clients aren't willing to pay you for those services, you're unemployed.

You guys might not like this, but many clients are jumping ship from biglaw firms. They don't want to pay a first year associate $400 an hour and a partner $650 an hour and be billed every time one of them so much has a dream about the case. There is NO justification to charge a client $400 an hour for a first year associate. For the first time ever, many biglaw firms are willing to drop their rates in order to retain clients. This creates less of a demand and profit margin on first year associates, who are essentially useless. The outrageous gravy train of biglaw is over -- they're going to drop their rates and cut the fat in order to survive.

The bad news for you is that a law degree, no matter where it's from, more and more is not a guaranteed six figure salary out of law school. You're going to have to earn it and struggle for awhile.

this

sumus romani wrote:Well, these numbers are better than many, including me, have been throwing around. It is very nice to see some actual data on this, rather than mere speculation or heresay. But it's still a pretty depressing picture all things considered.

Exactly. They were bad, but much better than the worst pessimists predicted.

mixed up the quote and edit buttons

dk8 wrote:mixed up the quote and edit buttons

ugh. sorry. I don't know how to do that.

dk8 wrote:mixed up the quote and edit buttons

ugh. sorry. I don't know how to do that.

Have I become so pessimistic that I find this comforting?

AJRESQ wrote:You guys might not like this, but many clients are jumping ship from biglaw firms. They don't want to pay a first year associate $400 an hour and a partner $650 an hour and be billed every time one of them so much has a dream about the case. There is NO justification to charge a client $400 an hour for a first year associate.

1) I am at a big law firm. My SA billing rate is well under $200/hour. Mid level associates are around $300/hour. I believe we're on the low end, but I don't believe for even a second we're under half of market billing.

2) Large amounts of associate and SA time is written off by partners before being submitted in a bill to clients.

3) Yes, there is a justification. The work is complex, sophisticated, and consequential - a lot rides on it. There is some push back as there is for all services, employees, and products in a down turn - but the model isn't about to implode.

In conclusion, you make some decent points which are severely undercut by your hyperbole and vitriolic statements. Have a nice day.

rad law wrote:Have I become so pessimistic that I find this comforting?

+1

Ya, maybe all these blogs have tainted me. But I saw 50% biglaw or comparable at Cornell and I thought, damn, thats a lot better than I thought it would be. That's comforting for someone like me who will be class of 2015 or so.

sumus romani wrote:

rad law wrote:Have I become so pessimistic that I find this comforting?

+1

+2

rad law wrote:Have I become so pessimistic that I find this comforting?

Especially if you consider all the people in a given class who wouldn't be interested in these types of opportunities.

Every class has people who have been working in related full-time jobs (paralegals, title and closing specialists, govt. employees, etc.) and are just getting a JD as an upgrade. They would probably just take classes over the summer, or do something else.

How many people would that be in a typical class? Anyone seen any stats?

From all the doom and gloom I read online and my own pessimism I expected it to be worse. But this just makes me curious to see data from the rest of the T20. Also, lol @ how much more intelligent David Lat's analysis was than Ellie's.

Yea this is really good new.. 45-50% is what I was thinking for Cornell before this nasty recession came.. schools below Vandy/Texas must be absolutely destroyed.

tkgrrett wrote:Yea this is really good new.. 45-50% is what I was thinking for Cornell before this nasty recession came.. schools below Vandy/Texas must be absolutely destroyed.

Cornell was close to 80% before the recession.

This is good in the sense that it isn't as bad as it could be, but it's not really objectively good in any sense.