$$$ vs. Law Forum

[cpunch]

I'm a little sad. Probably not nearly as sad as a no-offered debt-ridden T14 law student, and that's what I keep telling myself - that my grass is objectively greener.

I own a service-related business in which I make much more money than a biglaw associate - and I do so while working only about 30 hours a week. I also get to work from home. My work isn't intellectually challenging. In fact, it's the opposite of intellectually challenging, it's more like.. intellect-retarding. I hear that biglaw work is probably much worse than what I do, but I wasn't very interested in biglaw to begin with. My plan was to pursue a career in government and maybe/hopefully become a judge someday. I guess I'm one of those people who would enjoy law school more than the practice of law. I read court cases and listen to oral arguments online for fun. I recently read Christian Legal Society v. Martinez and was really impressed with Alito's dissent even though he's generally an unlikeable character, haha.

Anyway, back to my story. Last year, I applied to law school with the intention of using my savings to pay sticker at a T14. Being admitted to UVA via ED was the happiest day of my life. Unfortunately, my grandma got sick and I had to pay for her surgery. No more money. I considered taking out loans to attend UVA, but having witnessed the 2009 OCI bloodbath, I realized that I would be screwing myself financially by doing so. Even if I were to go the biglaw route, it'd take years to pay off a full-sticker-tuition loan. My business sense just didn't allow me to pull the trigger.

So I withdrew, and here I am. Now I'm back to making big bucks and sitting here browsing these forums envying all of you. Am I completely retarded? I should just take an early retirement and live an easy life of leisure, right? Intellectual growth and a sense of meaningful accomplishment - even if I can achieve these things through law, are they worth losing a lifetime of financial security?

...I keep thinking to myself, when I'm an old man, what will I be able to contribute to society? My kids will have left the nest by then. I won't have a profession, I won't have an area of expertise, I won't have knowledge to teach or research to conduct. I won't even have memories of a time in my life when I really felt like I was maximizing my potential as a human being. As an old man, I'd probably resort to playing MMORPG's all day long. WTF? That idea really pisses me off.

I know you guys will probably make fun of me and that's fine. I'm genuinely bothered by the situation I'm in and the life I'm leading, and I guess I just needed to vent. Tell me I'm dumb, tell me my impression of law is overly romanticized, tell me I expect too much from life.

Btw I'm 26.

[FeuerFrei]

.

[D-ROCCA]

Flame. Any owner of such a profitable business would know what his/her options were (hire a manager, wait a few years and reassess, just keep making it rain as a small business owner. Also, did Grandma not have insurance to pay for her surgery?

[romothesavior]

Am I completely retarded?

For envying US??? Yes, you are. Law, even non-biglaw, is not very stimulating when you're starting out. It is nothing like what Samuel Alito gets to do on a daily basis. No one in their right mind would go to law school and try for biglaw if they were making tons of money now.

But if you really want to go to law school, I will trade my scholarship at WUSTL for your business.

[stintez]

Hire a manager --> continue to make big bucks --> go to law school?

+100000000000000000000 do this ^

[merichard87]

What do you do and how do I get a job like that? lol

Haha, no seriously.

[albusdumbledore]

I'm a little sad. Probably not nearly as sad as a no-offered debt-ridden T14 law student, and that's what I keep telling myself - that my grass is objectively greener.

I own a service-related business in which I make much more money than a biglaw associate - and I do so while working only about 30 hours a week. I also get to work from home. My work isn't intellectually challenging. In fact, it's the opposite of intellectually challenging, it's more like.. intellect-retarding. I hear that biglaw work is probably much worse than what I do, but I wasn't very interested in biglaw to begin with. My plan was to pursue a career in government and maybe/hopefully become a judge someday. I guess I'm one of those people who would enjoy law school more than the practice of law. I read court cases and listen to oral arguments online for fun. I recently read Christian Legal Society v. Martinez and was really impressed with Alito's dissent even though he's generally an unlikeable character, haha.

Anyway, back to my story. Last year, I applied to law school with the intention of using my savings to pay sticker at a T14. Being admitted to UVA via ED was the happiest day of my life. Unfortunately, my grandma got sick and I had to pay for her surgery. No more money. I considered taking out loans to attend UVA, but having witnessed the 2009 OCI bloodbath, I realized that I would be screwing myself financially by doing so. Even if I were to go the biglaw route, it'd take years to pay off a full-sticker-tuition loan. My business sense just didn't allow me to pull the trigger.

So I withdrew, and here I am. Now I'm back to making big bucks and sitting here browsing these forums envying all of you. Am I completely retarded? I should just take an early retirement and live an easy life of leisure, right? Intellectual growth and a sense of meaningful accomplishment - even if I can achieve these things through law, are they worth losing a lifetime of financial security?

...I keep thinking to myself, when I'm an old man, what will I be able to contribute to society? My kids will have left the nest by then. I won't have a profession, I won't have an area of expertise, I won't have knowledge to teach or research to conduct. I won't even have memories of a time in my life when I really felt like I was maximizing my potential as a human being. As an old man, I'd probably resort to playing MMORPG's all day long. WTF? That idea really pisses me off.

I know you guys will probably make fun of me and that's fine. I'm genuinely bothered by the situation I'm in and the life I'm leading, and I guess I just needed to vent. Tell me I'm dumb, tell me my impression of law is overly romanticized, tell me I expect too much from life.

Btw I'm 26.

Drug dealer?

[cpunch]

Flame. Any owner of such a profitable business would know what his/her options were (hire a manager, wait a few years and reassess, just keep making it rain as a small business owner. Also, did Grandma not have insurance to pay for her surgery?

No one who has experience in small business ownership would seriously suggest hiring a manager to take over the business for 5+ years while I'm on the opposite side of the country. Case in point: I sold a *very* easy to run retail business for a six-figure sum before I left town to pursue undergrad, and the new owner still managed to run it into the ground within a few months. You can't trust anyone in this world.

Furthermore, I wasn't asking the forum what my business options were.. I was asking about general life principles/values such as leisure vs. accomplishment. I've read about non-traditional applicants in their 30's who give up their cushy jobs in order to attend law school. I've read about big-law associates who take pay cuts while transitioning to small-law for quality of life reasons. I've read about law students who have no interest whatsoever in big-law. Not everyone bases their life decisions on money.

As for my grandma, she is a 1st generation immigrant... she can't get health insurance.

[cpunch]

Am I completely retarded?

For envying US??? Yes, you are. Law, even non-biglaw, is not very stimulating when you're starting out. It is nothing like what Samuel Alito gets to do on a daily basis. No one in their right mind would go to law school and try for biglaw if they were making tons of money now.

But if you really want to go to law school, I will trade my scholarship at WUSTL for your business.

Thanks.

[jack duluoz]

You could take a scholarship at a lower ranked school.

[romothesavior]

I don't even play MMORPG's, and I would take a 6 figure salary to do that all day than work biglaw. How does that sound bad?

But okay, let's hash this thing out OP:

-WHY do you want to into law? If it is to be "stimulated," then you are making a bad decision.
-What exactly do you want to do? Taking out huge debt or spending tons of money for the pipe dream of becoming a judge is unwise. So... what is your gameplan?
-Where are you from?
-What are your numbers?
-Where do you want to practice?

[czelede]

I don't think you're stupid for wanting more intellectual stimulation, but I don't think law school is necessarily way for you to do it either. I think the legal field is very much glorified and overestimated to be a place of great intellectual growth and achievement. Law school is, certainly, and I'm sure those who take the academic/research route have such as well. But big law is a grueling job completely unlike what the media portrays it, and I don't know that you would find yourself more stimulated than you are now. Do you have a career plan for what you would do with your law degree after graduation?

I think this is a difficult situation because of your finances and I certainly understand where you're coming from; still, law school without scholarship is a six figure debt (at a good, non in-state school at least). If you have a concrete idea of where you want to go with your degree and what you want out of it, I would say go for it (given realistic expectations, of course). You will have a lot less free time, a lot less financial freedom, and a lot more work. You will most likely not end up being the city prosecutor on Law & Order, finagling courtrooms with your sharp wit and quick intellect. You will likely not be as relaxed and well off as you are at the moment. But! If your priorities are intellectual stimulation and self satisfaction, if you feel that law school would give you content with what you've done with your life, that's certainly something nobody can put a price on.

[cpunch]

I don't even play MMORPG's, and I would take a 6 figure salary to do that all day than work biglaw. How does that sound bad?

But okay, let's hash this thing out OP:

-WHY do you want to into law? If it is to be "stimulated," then you are making a bad decision.
-What exactly do you want to do? Taking out huge debt or spending tons of money for the pipe dream of becoming a judge is unwise. So... what is your gameplan?
-Where are you from?
-What are your numbers?
-Where do you want to practice?

I don't play MMORPG's either, I just figured there wouldn't be anything else for me to do at that age.

You know, I try my best to not be under any illusions regarding the practice of law... but I was listening to the oral arguments for the motion to stay in Hornbeck Offshore Services v. Salazar (it came out yesterday) and I couldn't help but think man, I'd feel great even from knowing that I had been involved in the research behind the plaintiff's counsel's argument. I mean, I'm sure I sound super naive to all you actual law students, but the legal concepts that the plaintiff's counsel touched upon really moved me, lol! (as ridiculous as that sounds)

To answer your questions.. I don't want to take out a huge amount of debt. I just want to do something challenging, something I can enjoy. I know I'm not supposed to enjoy the law. I know I'm probably being dumb. I just wanted to hear it from you guys so that I can feel better about my decisions, that's all.

Sure, I can save up and reapply.. maybe even try to get into a lower ranked school with a scholarship. I know that I have a lot of options. That wasn't the point of my post, though.

[cpunch]

I don't think you're stupid for wanting more intellectual stimulation, but I don't think law school is necessarily way for you to do it either. I think the legal field is very much glorified and overestimated to be a place of great intellectual growth and achievement. Law school is, certainly, and I'm sure those who take the academic/research route have such as well. But big law is a grueling job completely unlike what the media portrays it, and I don't know that you would find yourself more stimulated than you are now. Do you have a career plan for what you would do with your law degree after graduation?

I think this is a difficult situation because of your finances and I certainly understand where you're coming from; still, law school without scholarship is a six figure debt (at a good, non in-state school at least). If you have a concrete idea of where you want to go with your degree and what you want out of it, I would say go for it (given realistic expectations, of course). You will have a lot less free time, a lot less financial freedom, and a lot more work. You will most likely not end up being the city prosecutor on Law & Order, finagling courtrooms with your sharp wit and quick intellect. You will likely not be as relaxed and well off as you are at the moment. But! If your priorities are intellectual stimulation and self satisfaction, if you feel that law school would give you content with what you've done with your life, that's certainly something nobody can put a price on.

Yeah, I definitely wouldn't want to go for big law (or debt for that matter).

What's my alternative to law school? I guess I could try getting an econ ph.d and go into teaching, lol. My impression is that that's even more competitive than biglaw, though. Plus 8 years of math proofs.. sounds pretty scary. I'm okay at math, but not a savant like some of my profs in undergrad.

Foreign service agent was another idea, but not sure how I feel about the possibly dangerous/unhealthy living conditions.

[romothesavior]

Again, where are you from and where do you want to practice?

[cpunch]

Again, where are you from and where do you want to practice?

I'm from California and I wouldn't mind practicing on either coast.

[BeautifulSW]

cpunch,

If you are serious about missing the intellectual challenge but eventual employment isn't a concern, I do have a suggestion for you, though it is unusual. Consider: You want to study law. You run a successful business that requires your personal attention but gives you a substantial income. Okay; sign up with one of the California distance learning law schools and do your learning on-line. If you manage to complete four years of very disciplined and highly structured law study and pass the notorious First Year Law Student's Exam, you will be permitted to take the even more notorious California General Bar Exam and become a licensed attorney. Total tuition and fees will run around $30,000.

I promise you all the intellectual challenge you can stand.

[romothesavior]

cpunch,

If you are serious about missing the intellectual challenge but eventual employment isn't a concern, I do have a suggestion for you, though it is unusual. Consider: You want to study law. You run a successful business that requires your personal attention but gives you a substantial income. Okay; sign up with one of the California distance learning law schools and do your learning on-line. If you manage to complete four years of very disciplined and highly structured law study and pass the notorious First Year Law Student's Exam, you will be permitted to take the even more notorious California General Bar Exam and become a licensed attorney. Total tuition and fees will run around $30,000.

I promise you all the intellectual challenge you can stand.

I'm guessing this one is not credited.

[cpunch]

cpunch,

If you are serious about missing the intellectual challenge but eventual employment isn't a concern, I do have a suggestion for you, though it is unusual. Consider: You want to study law. You run a successful business that requires your personal attention but gives you a substantial income. Okay; sign up with one of the California distance learning law schools and do your learning on-line. If you manage to complete four years of very disciplined and highly structured law study and pass the notorious First Year Law Student's Exam, you will be permitted to take the even more notorious California General Bar Exam and become a licensed attorney. Total tuition and fees will run around $30,000.

I promise you all the intellectual challenge you can stand.

Hmm.. that's definitely something to think about. Would it be possible to take the distance learning courses, and then apply to law school later? I would eventually like to graduate from a law school that affords me at least some measure of opportunity, but the distance learning thing might be something I could do in the meantime. I like the idea of tackling the subject matter while my brain is still young, and then getting my fancy pants JD later on.

[legalease9]

cpunch,

If you are serious about missing the intellectual challenge but eventual employment isn't a concern, I do have a suggestion for you, though it is unusual. Consider: You want to study law. You run a successful business that requires your personal attention but gives you a substantial income. Okay; sign up with one of the California distance learning law schools and do your learning on-line. If you manage to complete four years of very disciplined and highly structured law study and pass the notorious First Year Law Student's Exam, you will be permitted to take the even more notorious California General Bar Exam and become a licensed attorney. Total tuition and fees will run around $30,000.

I promise you all the intellectual challenge you can stand.

No offense to Beautiful SW, but no. Don't go to an unaccredited Online Law School. First of all, you will be missing out on face to face peer and professor interaction, mock trial, journal work etc. which will cut down on whatever intellectual stimulation law school actually has. Secondly, you will likely not be able to get a job as a lawyer when you graduate. While this may not be important given your income, why go to law school at all if you aren't going to be a lawyer? If you only want to go for the reward of the schooling itself DON'T GO TO LAW SCHOOL! PHD programs will be far more fascinating and intellectually stimulating. I've talked to many a PHD candidate and they all find their research very rewarding and exciting. Law students... not so much.

Reconsider the manager thing. How good are you with the internet? In the modern age, you can keep your manager on a short leash from even a great distance. That being said, it would be safer if you could get down to your business in an emergency. Have you considered ABA accredited California schools? There are a lot of them, and depending on your numbers you might even get into some on the cheap.

Finally, how much could you sell your business for? If it is really that profitable, you should be able to make some bank selling it to another hungry business man for a significant sum. Not sure about the details, but something to look into.

[D-ROCCA]

I wasn't asking the forum what my business options were.. I was asking about general life principles/values such as leisure vs. accomplishment.

If you're asking TLS for life principles/values, check out the lounge, you'll regret that decision immediately. If you're making well-over 6 figures now, and you want to go to law school, you shouldn't have a problem selling your business for $1 million+, which should more than finance your years in law school. If you don't want to sell the biz, don't go to law school. You're current situation seems like you have a ton of free time, why not do LS part time and keep making bank?

I'd do a lot of awful things to work 30 hrs a week and make >$200k a year...

PS I hope your grandma is feeling better after the surgery.

[legalease9]

cpunch,

If you are serious about missing the intellectual challenge but eventual employment isn't a concern, I do have a suggestion for you, though it is unusual. Consider: You want to study law. You run a successful business that requires your personal attention but gives you a substantial income. Okay; sign up with one of the California distance learning law schools and do your learning on-line. If you manage to complete four years of very disciplined and highly structured law study and pass the notorious First Year Law Student's Exam, you will be permitted to take the even more notorious California General Bar Exam and become a licensed attorney. Total tuition and fees will run around $30,000.

I promise you all the intellectual challenge you can stand.

Hmm.. that's definitely something to think about. Would it be possible to take the distance learning courses, and then apply to law school later? I would eventually like to graduate from a law school that affords me at least some measure of opportunity, but the distance learning thing might be something I could do in the meantime. I like the idea of tackling the subject matter while my brain is still young, and then getting my fancy pants JD later on.

No. While you could theoretically do this, law school culture encourages pushing through in 3 years, 4 at the most (for part time). Starting law school at one point at a school no one respects, then trying to vault yourself later into a respectable school for your JD will be very hard. They will question your commitment to the profession. Not to mention, the older you get the harder it is to get an entry level lawyer position. You should worry more about your age when you get the JD rather than the age at which you absorb the material.

Again, I think you are looking for interesting schooling rather than becoming a lawyer. As such an Academic degree (masters/PHD) is the way to go.

[legalease9]

Flame. Any owner of such a profitable business would know what his/her options were (hire a manager, wait a few years and reassess, just keep making it rain as a small business owner. Also, did Grandma not have insurance to pay for her surgery?

No one who has experience in small business ownership would seriously suggest hiring a manager to take over the business for 5+ years while I'm on the opposite side of the country. Case in point: I sold a *very* easy to run retail business for a six-figure sum before I left town to pursue undergrad, and the new owner still managed to run it into the ground within a few months. You can't trust anyone in this world.

Furthermore, I wasn't asking the forum what my business options were.. I was asking about general life principles/values such as leisure vs. accomplishment. I've read about non-traditional applicants in their 30's who give up their cushy jobs in order to attend law school. I've read about big-law associates who take pay cuts while transitioning to small-law for quality of life reasons. I've read about law students who have no interest whatsoever in big-law. Not everyone bases their life decisions on money.

As for my grandma, she is a 1st generation immigrant... she can't get health insurance.

In terms of leisure vs. Accomplishment, what is it you hope to accomplish. You're assuming that a law degree will lead you to accomplish more with your life. But that's not true if you don't know what path you want to take/ have a path your degree can't get you (i.e. being a federal judge out of an unaccredited online school). The real question here is... What's your LSAT?

PS. I second the concern for your grandma. I hope she is well.

[BeautifulSW]

legalease is correct; you would be missing out on the face-to-face experience if you went the distance learning route. But schools such as Concord do provide at least some interaction via the internet. Not the same thing by any means but is that face-to-face contact really worth the mountain of cash a resident, full time program or even part-time program will cost you, not to mention the lost income while you are there?

I would point out to legalease that I specifically said that the distance option was viable only if legal employment is not a consideration.

No ABA approved law school will accept any transfer credit from a distance law school. However. If a licensed attorney were to apply to a law school's J.D. program, there might be some advance standing granted. I saw this once involving a foreign trained lawyer who immigrated to the United States from a common law country. My law school granted him roughly a year and a half of advanced standing based on his foreign law license. But one example isn't much to go on.

Regarding accreditation: The ABA does not accredit distance law schools. There are two such schools in existence that are accredited by the Distance Education and Training Council (DETC) which in turn is recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. The practical value of this accreditation is that some federal student aid might be available, depending on the type of program. The resulting J.D. however, will qualify for the bar exam in California only.

[dimreturns]

if not flame, I just want to know one thing: what type of "service" business do you run?

With that knowledge we can tell you if law will be more fun.