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What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Anonymous User » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:58 pm

The subject says it all. I realize this may be asking too much since the forum is mostly students, but I'm hoping some people with knowledge based upon experience or experiences of friends might chime in.

I'm most specifically interested in major markets, though not NYC. Is it different than the generalizations and ranges of experiences of in-house life at a company? Somehow, I imagine it is: mostly because the legal department would be dominated by those focused upon banking/financial institutions law.

I apologize for use of the anonymous feature, but since I'm headed to a firm and have provided some details in various posts I want to avoid being connected to this question even if it is mostly out of curiosity. If this is a problem, feel free to delete the thread.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kochel » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:24 am

I'm in-house at a non-NYC financial services company, have been for several years after a stint at Ropes & Gray. I'd be happy to discuss details, but as a general matter in-house life for me has pretty much lived up to the stereotype: great hours (out by 6, no weekends), full vacations every year, etc. I have specialized in financial services law, but I also do generalist work. I use Biglaw to handle the big and extraordinary matters. The stress and work rhythms are much less than they are in Biglaw. (Needless to say, I do not work at an investment bank.)

One thing that distinguishes in-house financial services work from in-house work in other fields is compensation. It's generally quite a bit better, particularly in bonuses. It doesn't equalize me with Biglaw lawyers with similar seniority, but it's like senior assoicate pay, and does increase over time. And I'm happy for the tradeoff in lifestyle. Nonetheless, GC's at companies like mine do better than most Biglaw partners.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by deneuve39 » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:33 am

Thanks for the really helpful response! Do financial services institutions tend to take associates with more experience (say 6 years instead of 3-4 years)? Also, sort of a follow-up to what the OP asked, how hard is it to find a position at a fin services company outside of NYC (say Boston or Chicago) if your experience is working at a V25 firm in NYC?

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kochel » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:55 am

While there are few financial services firms that will hire straight out of law school, there are plenty of firms (mine included) that will hire lawyers with 3-4 years of experience; that, in fact, tends to be the typical "entry level" lawyer profile. Depending on the size of the company, of course, promotion is possible. To my knowledge, my company hasn't hired a lawyer who didn't start his career at a Biglaw firm, however, and we're probably not the only company in our industry like that.

Not being a New York company, it's been a long time since we hired anyone straight from a New York Law Firm, but we're very familiar with the major firms in New York and would definitely be willing to hire a New York associate with the right financial services background. Experience with a major New York firm is generally quite portable elsewhere in the country.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Anonymous User » Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:36 pm

Any insight on the Boston market (since you mentioned you were at Ropes) for financial firms? Are there many jobs in the area? Or mostly just in NY? Will associates from big firms in Boston that aren't V50 (Mintz, etc.) have a good shot at these jobs if other pieces fall into place? Or are they super-competitive so the financial firms only go for NY associates or V50 Boston associates?

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by hopefulapp » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:38 pm

This topic is of a lot of interest to me so thanks Kochel and everyone else.

My question (and you may not be able to answer) is I know that major IBs have summer associate positions for those in LS; is there a high chance of getting an offer after doing so? Will not getting an offer stigmatize your chances after at getting biglaw? Again, you stated you're not in IB but if you have any info I'd very much appreciate your input :D

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kochel » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:00 am

I'm familiar with the Boston market. Like all others, it has sucked for two years, though there are signs of a rebound. However, lots of financial services firms (including mine) have laid off in-house lawyers, so those lawyers are competing with current Biglaw associates for the available jobs. The recovery will need to last a while before Boston and other cities are back to the pre-2008 pace.

As for who gets those jobs, the biggest factor is one's experience. Although every company needs some generalist in-house lawyers, financial services firms will be looking primarily for attorneys with expertise in the area (banking, investment management, broker-dealer, etc.). For the most part, the bigger law firms will produce more attorneys with that kind of experience, but many Boston firms handle this kind of business. It is definitely possible for attorneys from Mintz to get the skills they need to enter this industry.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:29 am

Thank you for sharing your knowledge, Kochel.

If one's goal is to go to a financial services firm, how can one position oneself to make it happen? Ask specifically for certain types of work from partners? If so, what kinds of work?

Assuming one can get the relevant work experience at a large firm, is it fairly easy to find job in this area in a non-recession economy, not necessarily a boom? From what you're seeing in this area right now do you think it'll normalize in 5 years (at least normal to the point where it's not so hard to grab one of these jobs with relevant, large firm experience)? I realize some of your answers can only be educated guesses, especially the last one.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kochel » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:45 am

If you know already that you want to work for a fin'l services company, then you're in better shape than most law students. I just fell into this area of law by happenstance, as it were. First, you'll want to join a law firm that has a healthy roster of fin'l services clients, preferably a broad mix (i.e., asset managers, banks, broker-dealer, hedge fund, private equity). This will make it much easier for you to be assigned work for such clients as a first-year associate. Check out firm websites to see how big their fin'l services departments are, Check national rankings in relevant practice areas. Check SEC filings of major public companies in the relevant region to see who they use for outside counsel.

Once you're at the firm, seek work for fin'l services partners. If your firm has a rotation system, make the most of your stint in the department. If you've got a centralized work assignment pool, signal your interest in this area affirmatively. After finishing an assignment for a partner or senior associate, ask to be added to other projects he/she is on. Try to work with all the partners in the department, in order to work with the broadest range of clients (and develop helpful relationships). Obviously, attend lunches/seminars and read up on regulation to develop your substantive knowledge. Needless to say, all of this applies to summer associates as well as first-years.

Above all, resist getting pulled into departments that will not further your exit strategy. Examples: labor, trusts/estates, antitrust, M&A, bankruptcy, even litigation generally. It's fine to get some exposure to these areas--you'll probably pick up some skills that will be relevant to you down the line--but that exposure won't help you convince a hiring GC that you know federal banking law or the 1940 Act. After 3 years or so of work in fin'l services, you'll have developed a good sense for your firm's client base and will have made contacts (both within the law firm and outside) that you can use when seeking an in-house job. You will likely have developed some sub-specialties by then, depending on which clients you've worked for, and this will be relevant to your search for in-house work.

In a normal economy, fin'l services firms will be hiring regularly. There are a number of headhunters who specialize in these jobs, and they know which law firms do business in the area--they'll likely start calling you before you even realize you want to leave the law firm. I'm hopeful that within 2-3 years, the "normal" job market will retun. This assumes that the markets rebound--unlike most industries, this sector is tied directly to the health of the securities markets.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:24 am

Any thoughts on the differences between inhouse at a hedge fund vs. VC vs. private equity firm vs. bank vs. investment bank, etc.? Or are they fairly similar in terms of pay, hours, environment (how you're viewed/treated within the company), work quality? Are any of these areas more abundant than others around Boston?

Due to past work experience, I've known before law school I wanted to go into this area. Is it helpful if I take a class this coming year dealing with this area? Or is work experience all that matters?

Truly invaluable information. Thank you again for sharing.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kochel » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:15 am

Anonymous User wrote:Any thoughts on the differences between inhouse at a hedge fund vs. VC vs. private equity firm vs. bank vs. investment bank, etc.? Or are they fairly similar in terms of pay, hours, environment (how you're viewed/treated within the company), work quality? Are any of these areas more abundant than others around Boston?

Due to past work experience, I've known before law school I wanted to go into this area. Is it helpful if I take a class this coming year dealing with this area? Or is work experience all that matters?

Truly invaluable information. Thank you again for sharing.
My impression developed over the years is that there are indeed cultural differences between types of fin'l services firms that lead to differences in hours and pay. Hedge funds, private equity funds and investment banks are deal-driven, and the work there is more stressful (cutthroat, even) and the hours longer. Pay, however, is generally perceived to be better (setting aside recent changes to bonus structures at the investment banks).

Things are different at asset managers, non-investment-banks, broker-dealers and other service providers. The legal work is more likely to focus on regulatory compliance and less on transactions. As one would expect, when your work is less defined by the adversary process, the work environment tends to be smoother and easier. Less stress, fewer hours. Pay, however, can still be very good, particularly at investment managers (and particularly in an up market), but in some places will tend to plateau at a lower level than at the more rough-and-tumble shops.

Keep in mind that the turmoil of 2008 and ongoing legislative/regulatory initiatives have led to immense change in the sector that will likely continue. If anything, legal departments at fin'l services firms will have a lot more work on their plates even if the business models are constrained.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by pjo » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:39 am

thanks for answering questions. Is the financial services industry driven much by pedigree (i.e. where you wne to school)? I ask because in another thread discussing tax law, it was said that their field particularly had a lot of T14 grads. I was wondering if your field is the same or if certain regional schools sometime had preference? I'm thinking UNC or Wake Forest because of their proximity to a banking hub like Charlotte. How much of an uphill battle would it be to get into fin services going to a non-T14 or even non-T25 school?

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kochel » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:21 pm

pjo wrote:thanks for answering questions. Is the financial services industry driven much by pedigree (i.e. where you wne to school)? I ask because in another thread discussing tax law, it was said that their field particularly had a lot of T14 grads. I was wondering if your field is the same or if certain regional schools sometime had preference? I'm thinking UNC or Wake Forest because of their proximity to a banking hub like Charlotte. How much of an uphill battle would it be to get into fin services going to a non-T14 or even non-T25 school?
For regulated industries like financial services, typically what matters most is what law firm you worked at to gain the relevant expertise. Fin'l services companies (other than the very biggest), like most other companies, generally don't hire lawyers fresh out of law school; they rely on law firms to develop talent for them. Generally, it won't matter much where you went to law school as long as you've been at the right kind of law firm and gotten the right kind of experience. For instance, of the 20 or so lawyers I've worked with at my current employer, all started their careers in Biglaw. At least 75% were also T14 grads, but that's not pertinent, since Biglaw hires disproportionately from the T14 to begin with and, when you're hiring a GC or other senior lawyer, law school is so far back in the past that it's silly to attach much significance to it. It really is the case that where you went to law school is most important for the first job you get, and much less important for each successive job.

Edited to add: If your goal is banking practice in [CITY], you should go to a law school from which you could get hired by a [CITY] firm that has a substantial banking practice. In-house employers are going to look to the firms they know, including local firms as well as nationally-recognized firms.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by ruski » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:54 pm

wait why do you say to avoid practice group slike m&a? i was under the impression that was the best group, especially for exit opps.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kochel » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:00 pm

M&A, unless specifically for fin'l services deals, is generally not relevant to a financial services company. Those companies are looking for expertise in fin'l services regulation.

M&A is a great path to general corporate in-house work, and I didn't mean to deride it. I was referring only to the fin'l services field.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by TaxLaw2010 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:09 pm

Hi, and thanks for taking questions. I am entering law school this fall (second career), and plan to focus on corporate tax and banking law. I was a former commercial banker (until the loan market dried up!), and would be interested in knowing if that would carry any weight in terms of securing an inhouse job upon graduation, or possibly a couple of years after working at in biglaw or at a midsized firm.

Thanks.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kretzy » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:16 pm

Echo the thank yous for the helpful info.

My question is whether there's any benefit to having a JD/MBA when lateraling to in-house VC/finance gigs, particularly from top MBA programs. Marginally helpful, not beneficial at all, somewhat detrimental (though I don't know how that'd be the case)?

I ask because I'm currently taking the GRE to apply to a joint MBA program while in law school, and can't really get much information for how beneficial it is in hiring for positions after a first-time biglaw gig.

Thanks!

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:24 pm

What was the interview process like for your Kochel? Did you interview at many places? How did you research the firm?

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by TaxLaw2010 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:00 pm

Kretzy wrote:Echo the thank yous for the helpful info.

My question is whether there's any benefit to having a JD/MBA when lateraling to in-house VC/finance gigs, particularly from top MBA programs. Marginally helpful, not beneficial at all, somewhat detrimental (though I don't know how that'd be the case)?

I ask because I'm currently taking the GRE to apply to a joint MBA program while in law school, and can't really get much information for how beneficial it is in hiring for positions after a first-time biglaw gig.

Thanks!
I have an MBA, I believe the GMAT is required to get into the MBA program, not the GRE, at least it was when I went a few years ago. I'm hoping that the MBA when coupled with the JD and CPA will help with moving into an in-house position.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kochel » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:18 pm

Kretzy wrote:Echo the thank yous for the helpful info.

My question is whether there's any benefit to having a JD/MBA when lateraling to in-house VC/finance gigs, particularly from top MBA programs. Marginally helpful, not beneficial at all, somewhat detrimental (though I don't know how that'd be the case)?

I ask because I'm currently taking the GRE to apply to a joint MBA program while in law school, and can't really get much information for how beneficial it is in hiring for positions after a first-time biglaw gig.

Thanks!
I can't answer with any authority, because I've never encountered the situation before. Thinking about my own company, my current GC would probably look favorably on an in-house lawyer candidate with an MBA, because our department deals very closely with all business units and an MBA might help a lawyer better advise internal clients on outcomes, risks, etc. But I could also make the case that the MBA would be irrelevant, because my GC would primarily think about the candidate's legal expertise and lawyering skills as opposed to business savvy. I suppose it depends on the specific in-house job--i.e., is the job for entry-level regulatory compliance work, or for supporting the business development group on strategic matters, or for supporting a particular product line?

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Kochel » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:26 pm

Anonymous User wrote:What was the interview process like for your Kochel? Did you interview at many places? How did you research the firm?
Gosh, that was a rather long time ago. I did interview at a few places, but frankly the headhunters did a lot of the heavy lifting for me in terms of research (i.e., giving me backgrounds of the current in-house lawyers, company structure, etc.) aside from the basics of website reviews.

I also used a few confidants at my law firm for advice--they were very familiar with the companies I was interviewing at and gave helpful feedback. Note that in this regard, you probably shouldn't use senior partners as sounding boards, unless you have a job offer in hand. Instead, use trusted young partners and senior associates who won't be tempted to use your info against you should the in-house search not pan out.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:34 pm

Wanted to revive this old thread. Can anyone provide some experience working as an inhouse at ibank (e.g., GS, JPM and MS)? Bonus points for any experience providing M&A advisory support for such (or similiar) institutions.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Lawman1865 » Thu Dec 02, 2021 11:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Wanted to revive this old thread. Can anyone provide some experience working as an inhouse at ibank (e.g., GS, JPM and MS)? Bonus points for any experience providing M&A advisory support for such (or similiar) institutions.
I'm at a V50 in NY but did a secondment at a bank. I understand that there are certain positions that are better lifestyle but the people who I worked with in the M&A and Capital Markets groups were swamped. Many of them blamed the the ambitious market and lamented the old days but I spoke to a few attorneys there who said that it was this busy before COVID also.

That being said I only had a few months, so it's really just anecdotal. The general idea is that in-house at a bank can have big-law hours and stress with not as much pay, maybe some more slower "periods" but overall not the standard in-house at a F500, etc. That being said, I'm sure I'm probably being over-simplistic and welcome somebody with more experience chiming in.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:33 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Wanted to revive this old thread. Can anyone provide some experience working as an inhouse at ibank (e.g., GS, JPM and MS)? Bonus points for any experience providing M&A advisory support for such (or similiar) institutions.
I have also done a secondment at one of the listed I-banks but in their lev fin group, focusing on lending. Hours were super chill (9ish to 6ish) with the occasional night email (no later than 8 PM) and no weekends. Actually used that experience to jump to another I-bank in house group. Pay is a bit less but hours (and seeing my family) are totally worth it.

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Re: What's it like to be inhouse at bank/financial institution?

Post by Anonymous User » Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:
Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:33 am
Anonymous User wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:34 pm
Wanted to revive this old thread. Can anyone provide some experience working as an inhouse at ibank (e.g., GS, JPM and MS)? Bonus points for any experience providing M&A advisory support for such (or similiar) institutions.
I have also done a secondment at one of the listed I-banks but in their lev fin group, focusing on lending. Hours were super chill (9ish to 6ish) with the occasional night email (no later than 8 PM) and no weekends. Actually used that experience to jump to another I-bank in house group. Pay is a bit less but hours (and seeing my family) are totally worth it.
I just moved to a non-bulge bracket but still reputable I-bank. Hours are definitely chill compared to a firm. Pay is pretty good. Work is pretty easy/boring (which is fine by me).

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