Top Law Schools

This information is taken from their Chicago office. It speaks for itself - from 33 2L SA offers to 9 for 2010? Yikes. This may be old news, but it's new to me.

http://www.skadden.com/recruiting/conte ... hicago.pdf

More where that came from...

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202461202850

So much for OCI being better this fall...

romothesavior wrote:So much for OCI being better this fall...

Guess I missed that part

"But clients' growing reluctance to pay for the work of summer associates does not affect the size of future programs, said Dantzler of White & Case. The class size is based on firm needs, not cost, he said, so the net result will be that firms will simply take on more of the burden."

KMaine wrote:

romothesavior wrote:So much for OCI being better this fall...

Guess I missed that part

"But clients' growing reluctance to pay for the work of summer associates does not affect the size of future programs, said Dantzler of White & Case. The class size is based on firm needs, not cost, he said, so the net result will be that firms will simply take on more of the burden."

Oh yeah I totally agree with this. Summer associateships are designed to recruit future talent, not to make immediate short term profits. It may have a minor effect, but I really don't think it will drastically alter the size of summer classes.

I was more referring to the first post. From 33 to 9? That's scary... especially with everyone predicting a small uptick in SAs or at least numbers consistent with last year.

romothesavior wrote:So much for OCI being better this fall...

That data reflects OCI from 2009, I don't think it is NECESSARILY indicative of OCI 2010.

Although, at this point, I have very little faith.

romothesavior wrote:So much for OCI being better this fall...

Expected 2010 = people they already recruited, LAST FALL (2009)

Though I'd be surprised if they took more than 15-20 this year.

ITT: people reveal they don't know how to read NALP forms.

romothesavior wrote:

KMaine wrote:

romothesavior wrote:So much for OCI being better this fall...

Guess I missed that part

"But clients' growing reluctance to pay for the work of summer associates does not affect the size of future programs, said Dantzler of White & Case. The class size is based on firm needs, not cost, he said, so the net result will be that firms will simply take on more of the burden."

Oh yeah I totally agree with this. Summer associateships are designed to recruit future talent, not to make immediate short term profits. It may have a minor effect, but I really don't think it will drastically alter the size of summer classes.

I was more referring to the first post. From 33 to 9? That's scary... especially with everyone predicting a small uptick in SAs or at least numbers consistent with last year.

To be fair, I think you may be jumping the gun a bit, Romo. That clients are pushing back on junior associate/summer associate product is neither new nor game-changing. My understanding from talking to people in biglaw is that in most cases juniors will simply do what is asked of them and then a senior associate and/or other senior member of the firm will *gasp* do whatever it takes -- ie. move boxes around -- when it's time to bill the client. This is clearly unethical but this is BigLaw we're talking about; ATL just ran a story on how a big, reputable firm is billing clients for a paralegal's drycleaning run.

Regarding OCI: Chicago was a market that was hit disproportionately hard. Like KMaine, I agree that the coming OCI will be rough but not as rough as 2009. Most indicators suggest this. It should be noted that Skadden cut just as deeply in NYC and that its Chicago office runs largely as an outpost for its NYC overflow. So this all makes sense. What should concern you more if you're gunning for Chicago is how troubled Mayer, Jenner, Winston, and Sidley are. Kirkland reportedly is only slightly surer footing.

Romo - I am not arguing that OCI will be better this year. I have heard predictions that it will be slightly better, and I am hopeful that it will be. I was merely saying that I did not see that in either link. Of course, like anybody interviewing two months from now, I am interested in any info about which way the wind is blowing. To keep my expectations low, I am thinking it will be about the same as last year, and I am thinking that firms have their numbers at a low, manageable number where they can offer permanent work to everybody who does a good job for them (unlike two years ago).

edit n/m

Most of the partners I have spoken to anticipate slight improvement this year (10-15 percent more hires). But if a firm only has 25 summers this summer, that would mean an increase of 3 or 4 for a whopping total of 30 for 2011. Of course 3 or 4 more hires does add up across the firms.

Firms do not intend to ramp up hiring more than 10-15 percent. The firms I have talked to really hated teh headache of deferring associates and alll the complications and bad will that went along with it. They know they can get people in the 3L and the lateral market if things unexpectedly heat up between now and 2012.

Also, as expected, firms have cut back on hiring from lower ranked local schools (at least in NYC). For New York schools, no one has much of a chance in the city except at Columbia and NYU.

So would you say, even a school like Fordam is DOA...ITE in NYC?

RVP11 wrote:

romothesavior wrote:So much for OCI being better this fall...

Expected 2010 = people they already recruited, LAST FALL (2009)

Though I'd be surprised if they took more than 15-20 this year.

ITT: people reveal they don't know how to read NALP forms.

Thanks, jackass.

My apologies for the mistake. I think the word "expected" was what confused me, and I read that at work at 7:00 in the morning. So I'm very sorry for the poor RC.

According to the NLJ, 29.4 percent of Fordham 2009 grads started in NLJ 250 firms versus 54.4 percent of Columbia 2009 grads. Based on summer 2010 data for Columbia, it looks like Columbia may only send around 35 percent of its 2011 grads into the NLJ 250. Based on talking with partners, the decline with respect to Fordham will be even greater.

So I'd say you have a shot at 160 market paying law firm in NYC from Fordham if you are in the top 10 percent of the class there. Beyond that, I thimk your chances are close to zero right now.

HLS2000 wrote:According to the NLJ, 29.4 percent of Fordham 2009 grads started in NLJ 250 firms versus 54.4 percent of Columbia 2009 grads. Based on summer 2010 data for Columbia, it looks like Columbia may only send around 35 percent of its 2011 grads into the NLJ 250. Based on talking with partners, the decline with respect to Fordham will be even greater.

So I'd say you have a shot at 160 market paying law firm in NYC from Fordham if you are in the top 10 percent of the class there. Beyond that, I thimk your chances are close to zero right now.

Dude, I've given you cred until this post. But, are you high? Please consult the actual data before you pull things out of your ass. Through EIP alone, CLS put ~70% of its class into SAs. Subtract 10% who do clerkships, another 5% who decide against biglaw and/or do govt/PI, and you're still sitting pretty at ~50% of the class in NLJ 250.

Columbia put 54.4 percent of its 2009 graduates in the NLJ 250. Almost all of these people were hired for summer positions in the Fall of 2007! (That was down from over 70 percent from the clas of 2008.) Almost all of these people were hired for summer positions in the Fall of 2007! Do you know how different hiring in the fall of 2007 was from the fall of 2009? The bulk of firms reduced hiring from 50-80 percent between the fall of 2007 and 2009. If Columbia only placed 54.4 percent of its 2009 graduates in the NLJ, what percent do you think they will place of their 2011 grads considering how much hriing declined between the fall of 2007 and 2009? I have seen 2009 EIP data and it was not pretty at all. Yes, I am extrapolating from that EIP data what the hiring numbers will be like for 2011 grads ultimately. But again if only 54.4 percent of the 2009 class was placed in NLJ 250 firms, it is (in my opinion based on the EIP data for fall 2009) a fair estimate to say that only roughly 35 percent of 2011 grads will end of in NLJ 250 firms.



Here is the data for 2009 graduates:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


This does exclude people who do clerkships and people who decide they don't want to do biglaw. So maybe 10-15 percent more people could have gotten big law jobs if they had wanted to do so. But my numbers are still solid overall.

HLS2000 wrote:Columbia put 54.4 percent of its 2009 graduates in the NLJ 250. Almost all of these people were hired for summer positions in the Fall of 2007! (That was down from over 70 percent from the clas of 2008.) Almost all of these people were hired for summer positions in the Fall of 2007! Do you know how different hiring in the fall of 2007 was from the fall of 2009? The bulk of firms reduced hiring from 50-80 percent between the fall of 2007 and 2009. If Columbia only placed 54.4 percent of its 2009 graduates in the NLJ, what percent do you think they will place of their 2011 grads considering how much hriing declined between the fall of 2007 and 2009? I have seen 2009 EIP data and it was not pretty at all. Yes, I am extrapolating from that EIP data what the hiring numbers will be like for 2011 grads ultimately. But again if only 54.4 percent of the 2009 class was placed in NLJ 250 firms, it is (in my opinion based on the EIP data for fall 2009) a fair estimate to say that only roughly 35 percent of 2011 grads will end of in NLJ 250 firms.



Here is the data for 2009 graduates:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


This does exclude people who do clerkships and people who decide they don't want to do biglaw. So maybe 10-15 percent more people could have gotten big law jobs if they had wanted to do so. But my numbers are still solid overall.

Explain how you take 70% and arrive at 35% accepting biglaw jobs upon graduation? Just work out the math for me.

HLS2000 wrote:Columbia put 54.4 percent of its 2009 graduates in the NLJ 250. Almost all of these people were hired for summer positions in the Fall of 2007! (That was down from over 70 percent from the clas of 2008.) Almost all of these people were hired for summer positions in the Fall of 2007! Do you know how different hiring in the fall of 2007 was from the fall of 2009? The bulk of firms reduced hiring from 50-80 percent between the fall of 2007 and 2009. If Columbia only placed 54.4 percent of its 2009 graduates in the NLJ, what percent do you think they will place of their 2011 grads considering how much hriing declined between the fall of 2007 and 2009? I have seen 2009 EIP data and it was not pretty at all. Yes, I am extrapolating from that EIP data what the hiring numbers will be like for 2011 grads ultimately. But again if only 54.4 percent of the 2009 class was placed in NLJ 250 firms, it is (in my opinion based on the EIP data for fall 2009) a fair estimate to say that only roughly 35 percent of 2011 grads will end of in NLJ 250 firms.



Here is the data for 2009 graduates:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1


This does exclude people who do clerkships and people who decide they don't want to do biglaw. So maybe 10-15 percent more people could have gotten big law jobs if they had wanted to do so. But my numbers are still solid overall.

You have extrapolation, estimates, and guesses. Not needed when we have an actual figure.

CLS said they had 67% of EIP participants getting jobs through those interviews. It's safe to say that not only are nearly all those firms at EIP in the NLJ250, but also in the V100. Add in folks who got NLJ250 jobs outside of EIP (which I'm sure many did - most non-V100 NLJ250 firms aren't flying to CLS to interview), subtract everyone who clerks (or doesn't get an offer), and you're still probably right at 50% (or more) going into NLJ250 firms at graduation.

edit n/m

My bad for skewing the data. It was well past my bed time when I posted that. F'n law school has my panties all twisted up lately.

.

ObviouslyMasochistic wrote:More where that came from...

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1202461202850

The chart this article shows on the % change in SA's is depressing.

.

bwv812 wrote:

miamiman wrote:

HLS2000 wrote:According to the NLJ, 29.4 percent of Fordham 2009 grads started in NLJ 250 firms versus 54.4 percent of Columbia 2009 grads. Based on summer 2010 data for Columbia, it looks like Columbia may only send around 35 percent of its 2011 grads into the NLJ 250. Based on talking with partners, the decline with respect to Fordham will be even greater.

So I'd say you have a shot at 160 market paying law firm in NYC from Fordham if you are in the top 10 percent of the class there. Beyond that, I thimk your chances are close to zero right now.

Dude, I've given you cred until this post. But, are you high? Please consult the actual data before you pull things out of your ass. Through EIP alone, CLS put ~70% of its class into SAs. Subtract 10% who do clerkships, another 5% who decide against biglaw and/or do govt/PI, and you're still sitting pretty at ~50% of the class in NLJ 250.

Umm... 67% of those who participated in EIP got biglaw, not 67% of the class as a whole. Add in some unknown number of no-offers (I suspect that the 100%-offer-rate system may be gone for good if firms think they can no-offer without huge stigma, though it shouldn't be as low as it was for class of 2010), and it will almost certainly be below 50% of the class doing NLJ250 immediately after graduation.

On the other hand, if CLS has traditionally placed ~100% ofEIP-participating 2Ls in SAs, and assuming the same number of opt-outs/clerks that you are assuming for this year (15-20%), shouldn't they have had at least 70% in NLJ250 for c/o 2009? They didn't, so something is seriously wrong with your assumptions, as well.

But you'd also have to add in all the non-EIP NLJ250 jobs, which is probably a not insignificant number ITE since regional BigLaw firms aren't traveling as much for OCI but CLS 2Ls are still presumably getting those kinds of SAs.

edit