2010 SA Class Sizes Forum

[miamiman]

Cravath had ~160 summers 2 years ago, so if the 22-25 number for this summer is accurate, that's an 85% reduction.

Note that Skadden and Cravath, the two V10s with arguably the biggest reductions, deferred 2009 SAs with offers to Fall 2011. This probably is a big factor. Other V10s that didn't defer 2009 SAs (Cleary, DPW, STB, S&C) still had big reductions, but nowhere near what Cravath and Skadden did.

Edit: Same with Weil.

Is this implying that co 2012 will experience a noticeable uptick in hiring from those firms?

[frix0803]

Cravath had ~160 summers 2 years ago, so if the 22-25 number for this summer is accurate, that's an 85% reduction.

Note that Skadden and Cravath, the two V10s with arguably the biggest reductions, deferred 2009 SAs with offers to Fall 2011. This probably is a big factor. Other V10s that didn't defer 2009 SAs (Cleary, DPW, STB, S&C) still had big reductions, but nowhere near what Cravath and Skadden did.

Edit: Same with Weil.

Is this implying that co 2012 will experience a noticeable uptick in hiring from those firms?

we should all hope so.

[09042014]

Cravath had ~160 summers 2 years ago, so if the 22-25 number for this summer is accurate, that's an 85% reduction.

Note that Skadden and Cravath, the two V10s with arguably the biggest reductions, deferred 2009 SAs with offers to Fall 2011. This probably is a big factor. Other V10s that didn't defer 2009 SAs (Cleary, DPW, STB, S&C) still had big reductions, but nowhere near what Cravath and Skadden did.

Edit: Same with Weil.

Is this implying that co 2012 will experience a noticeable uptick in hiring from those firms?

we should all hope so.

fuck you guys, I hope firms are cautious and then hire gangbusters for 13.

[miamiman]

c/o 2013: the year BigLaw (re)grew a pair

[rayiner]

Cravath had ~160 summers 2 years ago, so if the 22-25 number for this summer is accurate, that's an 85% reduction.

Note that Skadden and Cravath, the two V10s with arguably the biggest reductions, deferred 2009 SAs with offers to Fall 2011. This probably is a big factor. Other V10s that didn't defer 2009 SAs (Cleary, DPW, STB, S&C) still had big reductions, but nowhere near what Cravath and Skadden did.

Edit: Same with Weil.

Is this implying that co 2012 will experience a noticeable uptick in hiring from those firms?

Not necessarily. Both the deferrals and the hiring reduction could be the product of those firms overhiring more than others during the boom. In which case that doesn't say anything about what C/O 2012 will look like.

It really depends on why firms are hiring the folks from C/O 2011. If a firm thinks their class needs post-boom are 60/year and are hiring 30 because they have 30 on deferral, then C/O 2012 could see a large uptick. On the other hand, if they're way overglutted still and could afford to just hire no-one, and are hiring a token class as a hedge against an uptick in the economy/to save face from eliminating the summer class, then C/O 2012 could be not any better at all.

[d34d9823]

we should all hope so.

fuck you guys, I hope firms are cautious and then hire gangbusters for 13.

fuck you, I hope they wait until 14 and then hire triple size classes

[JCougar]

we should all hope so.

fuck you guys, I hope firms are cautious and then hire gangbusters for 13.

fuck you, I hope they wait until 14 and then hire triple size classes

Nope. c/o 2013 ---> Median @ WUSTL = biglaw

LOL okay that's just beyond trolling.

[creamedcats]

we should all hope so.

fuck you guys, I hope firms are cautious and then hire gangbusters for 13.

fuck you, I hope they wait until 14 and then hire triple size classes

Nope. c/o 2013 ---> Median @ WUSTL = biglaw

LOL okay that's just beyond trolling.

Cleveland to 190

[castanea]

This paper looks at the correlation between the macroeconomy and volume of litigation in federal courts. http://econweb.rutgers.edu/nswanson/papers/litfinal.pdf

Seems like people who are negative on the classes of 2012 or 2013 would need to have a very bearish view on economic growth three years out. Considering we're starting to see recovery now, doesn't seem to make sense to forecast a continued lack of hiring for 2-3 years.

[RisingMichigan3L]

Considering we're starting to see recovery now, doesn't seem to make sense to forecast a continued lack of hiring for 2-3 ye

Unless, you know, the Euro collapses and local municipalities start defaulting on their debt obligations.

Oh wait!

[theghostofDrewTate]

Considering we're starting to see recovery now, doesn't seem to make sense to forecast a continued lack of hiring for 2-3 ye

Unless, you know, the Euro collapses and local municipalities start defaulting on their debt obligations.

Oh wait!

You never know. I am stuck at work today (mid level M&A associate) and I can tell you that the M&A market is picking back up. I had a long chat with a headhunter last week (I'm not looking to move or anything, but he's a dude I met at an alumni event and I wanted to scope out his thoughts). His take was that many firms are seeing an uptick in transactional activity and they are looking to bring in new bodies with experience, but they will not talk to anyone who was laid off. The recovery will start with mid levels first (fairly cheap, know what they're doing, no need to train, a few years til you kick them out), then seniors, then juniors then trickle into expanded entry level hiring. This is on the transactional side only, though. There is a TON of money on the sidelines, PE guys are antsy, corps are antsy (all that cash with sub 1% yields) and the wave of PE deals that started around 9/11 are going to have to start being unwound soon. There can be a decent recovery in transactional biglaw without any general economic recovery.

Litigation, on the other hand, is in a bad spot. Contract attorneys and outsourced doc reviewers are gutting that market. I would expect biglaw firms with lit practices to hire at a rate of approximately 1/4 of the previous pre bust rate because clients simply are not willing to pay over $300 an hour for doc review anymore. [EDIT - LIT GROUPS WILL HIRE AT 1/4 OF OLD RATE, NOT NECESSARILY THE WHOLE FIRM] That alone will drive biglaw hiring down a little, but for the people doing OCI in 2010, you better pray for a robust summer in terms of transactional work (I think it will still be bad in 2010 because of deferrals and poor foresight by firms as to what demand will look like). But then I think 2011 OCI will start getting a lot better as the deferrals get worked through and the firms have worked through the lateral recruiting process I described above.

Heck, with all the people biglaw has laid off and the reluctance to bring them back, plus the small class sizes, the class of 2013 could be poised to get big raises before they even start work given the tightness that could come back into the associate market a year or two from now.

[XxSpyKEx]

Thanks for posting that OP. I posted up the following complete snap shot of the 2008, 2009, and 2010 NALP firm SA class sizes for Chicago a while ago, but I think this would be a better place to archive it (as oppose to just some random thread somewhere):

At Mayer-Chicago, my landing pad this year

2008 2L SAs: 71
2009 2L SAs: 44 (Offers Made: 33)
2010 2L SAs: 11

Jeez. The judge I worked for last summer had 6 interns.

K&E Chicago is down to 32 this year
Jenner Chicago is down to 16
Sidley is down to 20
Winston & Strawn: 22

So, christ, total for the "Chicago 5": 101. That's a lot worse than I thought.

Add some of the other big V100 firms with offices in Chicago:

Skadden: 9 ( )
Latham: 9
Baker & McKenzie: 4
DLA Piper: 5
Jones Day: 8

Etc. etc.

Hey, C/O 2012 people: STOP BITCHING. You might have it bad, but it won't be the rapeage that the C/O 2011 got handed.

I wonder what % change in total number 2L SA (for NALP firms) there were from 2007 OCI (i.e. 2008 2L SAs) to this year in Chicago. Seems like it had to be pretty large... Now if I wasn't so lazy I would considering looking this up for myself...

OK, I can’t sleep and am starting to feel a little hung over now and saw this thread so I looked up the total results for the NALP firms in Chicago (I think there are a good number of IP boutiques in here because I haven’t even heard of some of these firms).

Law firm name
2008 2009 2010 [2L SA class]

Baker & McKenzie LLP – Chicago
2 8 4

Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
5 3 3

Barnes & Thornburg LLP
3 0 0

BRINKS HOFER GILSON & LIONE
7 12 1

BRYAN CAVE LLP – CHICAGO
6 3 2

Butler Rubin Saltarelli & Boyd LLP
1 1 1

Chapman and Cutler LLP
10 9 7

DLA Piper LLP (US)
18 7 5

Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
12 5 4

DYKEMA (Dykema Gossett PLLC) - CHICAGO OFFICE
6 3 2

FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
7 1 0

FOLEY & LARDNER LLP- CHICAGO
21 9 4

Goldberg Kohn Ltd.
8 1 1

Greenberg Traurig, LLP
6 7 3

Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP
18 7 8

Holland & Knight LLP – Chicago
6 4 2

JENNER & BLOCK LLP
40 46 16

JONES DAY – CHICAGO
17 21 8

K&L Gates LLP - Chicago, IL
10 13 3

Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
29 15 5

KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP – Chicago
54 52 32

LATHAM & WATKINS LLP – CHICAGO
25 20 9

Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP – Chicago
11 2 2

Lovells LLP
7 4 2

Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
4 2 4

MAYER BROWN LLP
71 46 11

McAndrews, Held & Malloy, Ltd.
7 4 4

McDermott Will & Emery LLP
14 14 8

McDonnell Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff LLP
9 9 9

McGuireWoods LLP – Chicago
8 11 4

Michael Best & Friedrich LLP
2 2 1

Miller Shakman & Beem LLP
2 1 0

Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
5 3 0

Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg LLP
19 10 0

NIXON PEABODY LLP - Chicago, IL
2 1 2

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
14 5 5

Perkins Coie LLP
4 3 1

Pircher, Nichols & Meeks
3 3 3

Quarles & Brady LLP
3 3 0

Reed Smith – Chicago
6 6 2

Ropes & Gray LLP
0 6 5

Schiff Hardin LLP
12 21 8

SEYFARTH SHAW LLP – CHICAGO
9 6 0

Shefsky & Froelich Ltd
2 1 1

SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP – CHICAGO
75 43 20

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9

Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
43 14 6

Thompson Coburn LLP
3 1 1

Ungaretti & Harris LLP
6 4 3

Vedder Price, P.C.
10 5 0

WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON LLP
14 17 3

Winston & Strawn LLP
67 54 22

2008 SA total= 809

2009 SA total= 581

2010 SA total= 256

2010 SA/ 2009 SA = 256/581= 44% of the SAs that were available in 2009 were available in 2010

2010 SA/2008 SA = 256/809 = 31.6% of the SAs that were available in 2008 were available in 2010

The 256 number doesn’t seem to bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.