Top Law Schools

I am a 0L. The NALP stats seem to indicate that, for mid-lower T14s, it's about a coin-flip to get a clerkship/Biglaw. This is where I'm headed (mid-lower T14) and that's what I want (clerkship/Biglaw). I'm smart and motivated (...), but I'm not dumb enough to think I'm smarter or motivateder than any of my classmates will be, and fully understand the element of luck that comes into play in 1L grades. In other words, if I graduate at or below median, I wouldn't be absolutely shocked. My question is the above: what do people at similar schools, with similar goals, who get shut out at OCI/clerkships, do? I feel like, if I'm going into $200K of debt, I need to have the semblance of a backup plan if things don't work out.

lawschoollll wrote:I am a 0L. The NALP stats seem to indicate that, for mid-lower T14s, it's about a coin-flip to get a clerkship/Biglaw. This is where I'm headed (mid-lower T14) and that's what I want (clerkship/Biglaw). I'm smart and motivated (...), but I'm not dumb enough to think I'm smarter or motivateder than any of my classmates will be, and fully understand the element of luck that comes into play in 1L grades. In other words, if I graduate at or below median, I wouldn't be absolutely shocked. My question is the above: what do people at similar schools, with similar goals, who get shut out at OCI/clerkships, do? I feel like, if I'm going into $200K of debt, I need to have the semblance of a backup plan if things don't work out.

IBR is your backup plan.

Kohinoor wrote:

lawschoollll wrote:I am a 0L. The NALP stats seem to indicate that, for mid-lower T14s, it's about a coin-flip to get a clerkship/Biglaw. This is where I'm headed (mid-lower T14) and that's what I want (clerkship/Biglaw). I'm smart and motivated (...), but I'm not dumb enough to think I'm smarter or motivateder than any of my classmates will be, and fully understand the element of luck that comes into play in 1L grades. In other words, if I graduate at or below median, I wouldn't be absolutely shocked. My question is the above: what do people at similar schools, with similar goals, who get shut out at OCI/clerkships, do? I feel like, if I'm going into $200K of debt, I need to have the semblance of a backup plan if things don't work out.

IBR is your backup plan.

Right. I'm talking about employment. Obviously the bottom 40% at MVPBDCNG eventually get jobs, but what are they?

First off, don't imagine that anywhere near the top half of the class in mid to low t14s are getting Biglaw or clerkships. That might have been the case 2 or 3 years ago, but I'm at a t10 and know several LR students who don't have jobs. A much larger percentage of students who do have jobs are not working anywhere near biglaw, they are doing public interest or whatever small to mid-size firm work they could convince to take them. If you do come to a mid to low t14 and end up in the middle or lower half of your class, you will likely be hunting for a public interest job or scrounging for some other form of work. Even if you are lucky enough to be in the top 25%, the biglaw job or clerkship is still not a done deal (and don't interpret "not a done deal" to simply mean that if you put in a little bit of extra work you can get it, I mean "not a done deal" as in, you will still only get the job if luck works in your favor). I'm happy to be at the school I'm at and I have a fairly nice scholarship to lighten the load, but if I were a 0L in your shoes, I'd seriously consider the kind of debt you're about to take on and whether it is worth the investment. I'd also really consider all the t20-t35 schools you can attend for free or very little.

wesleybs wrote:First off, don't imagine that anywhere near the top half of the class in mid to low t14s are getting Biglaw or clerkships. That might have been the case 2 or 3 years ago, but I'm at a t10 and know several LR students who don't have jobs. A much larger percentage of students who do have jobs are not working anywhere near biglaw, they are doing public interest or whatever small to mid-size firm work they could convince to take them. If you do come to a mid to low t14 and end up in the middle or lower half of your class, you will likely be hunting for a public interest job or scrounging for some other form of work. Even if you are lucky enough to be in the top 25%, the biglaw job or clerkship is still not a done deal (and don't interpret "not a done deal" to simply mean that if you put in a little bit of extra work you can get it, I mean "not a done deal" as in, you will still only get the job if luck works in your favor). I'm happy to be at the school I'm at and I have a fairly nice scholarship to lighten the load, but if I were a 0L in your shoes, I'd seriously consider the kind of debt you're about to take on and whether it is worth the investment. I'd also really consider all the t20-t35 schools you can attend for free or very little.

Its posts like this from people in the actual situation that make me happy I'm going with BU for about 20K over Cornell with 100K in debt.

dakatz wrote:

wesleybs wrote:First off, don't imagine that anywhere near the top half of the class in mid to low t14s are getting Biglaw or clerkships. That might have been the case 2 or 3 years ago, but I'm at a t10 and know several LR students who don't have jobs. A much larger percentage of students who do have jobs are not working anywhere near biglaw, they are doing public interest or whatever small to mid-size firm work they could convince to take them. If you do come to a mid to low t14 and end up in the middle or lower half of your class, you will likely be hunting for a public interest job or scrounging for some other form of work. Even if you are lucky enough to be in the top 25%, the biglaw job or clerkship is still not a done deal (and don't interpret "not a done deal" to simply mean that if you put in a little bit of extra work you can get it, I mean "not a done deal" as in, you will still only get the job if luck works in your favor). I'm happy to be at the school I'm at and I have a fairly nice scholarship to lighten the load, but if I were a 0L in your shoes, I'd seriously consider the kind of debt you're about to take on and whether it is worth the investment. I'd also really consider all the t20-t35 schools you can attend for free or very little.

Its posts like this from people in the actual situation that make me happy I'm going with BU for about 20K over Cornell with 100K in debt.

Yeah, it's much better to be certain you won't have a chance at getting a big firm job

If your goal is to work in a law firm, that 80K is going to be small fucking potatoes if you get shut out from BU at a rank where you would have had a chance from Cornell (and schools outside of the top 14 are seeing MUCH greater reduction in big firm hiring these days).

As a caveat wesleybs: While grades matter a lot, I'd say 60%+ of the class at most T14s are in a position to fight for a big firm job. Smart bidding, ties, personality, and softs can carry even a slightly below median into a firm job, even ITE. The thing is a lot of people were getting either 1 or 0 offers - and at that point the career outlook is miles apart, but the actually success at OCI is very similar. But the median area still had a real chance - though maybe not better than a 50% chance - at getting a big firm job at my T14 this year.

disco_barred wrote:

dakatz wrote:

wesleybs wrote:First off, don't imagine that anywhere near the top half of the class in mid to low t14s are getting Biglaw or clerkships. That might have been the case 2 or 3 years ago, but I'm at a t10 and know several LR students who don't have jobs. A much larger percentage of students who do have jobs are not working anywhere near biglaw, they are doing public interest or whatever small to mid-size firm work they could convince to take them. If you do come to a mid to low t14 and end up in the middle or lower half of your class, you will likely be hunting for a public interest job or scrounging for some other form of work. Even if you are lucky enough to be in the top 25%, the biglaw job or clerkship is still not a done deal (and don't interpret "not a done deal" to simply mean that if you put in a little bit of extra work you can get it, I mean "not a done deal" as in, you will still only get the job if luck works in your favor). I'm happy to be at the school I'm at and I have a fairly nice scholarship to lighten the load, but if I were a 0L in your shoes, I'd seriously consider the kind of debt you're about to take on and whether it is worth the investment. I'd also really consider all the t20-t35 schools you can attend for free or very little.

Its posts like this from people in the actual situation that make me happy I'm going with BU for about 20K over Cornell with 100K in debt.

Yeah, it's much better to be certain you won't have a chance at getting a big firm job

If your goal is to work in a law firm, that 80K is going to be small fucking potatoes if you get shut out from BU at a rank where you would have had a chance from Cornell (and schools outside of the top 14 are seeing MUCH greater reduction in big firm hiring these days).

As a caveat wesleybs: While grades matter a lot, I'd say 60%+ of the class at most T14s are in a position to fight for a big firm job. Smart bidding, ties, personality, and softs can carry even a slightly below median into a firm job, even ITE. The thing is a lot of people were getting either 1 or 0 offers - and at that point the career outlook is miles apart, but the actually success at OCI is very similar. But the median area still had a real chance - though maybe not better than a 50% chance - at getting a big firm job at my T14 this year.

100K seems like a lot to gamble on a coin flip of 50%. I'd much rather graduate debt free. Its not like a solid T-25 schools offers no shot at a big firm job (not that a big firm job is even what I necessarily intend to do, even if I have the opportunity), but I talked to a bunch of people coming out of BU this year who said that the top 3rd, while not all have big firm jobs, are doing relatively fine. Id rather take a really safe 1/3 bet (along with the various personal reasons I have to be in Boston), than a high priced 1/2 bet.

dakatz wrote:100K seems like a lot to gamble on a coin flip of 50%. I'd much rather graduate debt free. Its not like a solid T-25 schools offers no shot at a big firm job (not that a big firm job is even what I necessarily intend to do, even if I have the opportunity), but I talked to a bunch of people coming out of BU this year who said that the top 3rd, while not all have big firm jobs, are doing relatively fine. Id rather take a really safe 1/3 bet (along with the various personal reasons I have to be in Boston), than a high priced 1/2 bet.

Fair enough. Law students aren't supposed to be good at math anyway

Good Luck, man. BU is a good school, and Boston is great. I def. would have gone the other way (and did). You are limiting your choices for the "safe bet" though.

dakatz wrote:

disco_barred wrote:

dakatz wrote:

wesleybs wrote:First off, don't imagine that anywhere near the top half of the class in mid to low t14s are getting Biglaw or clerkships. That might have been the case 2 or 3 years ago, but I'm at a t10 and know several LR students who don't have jobs. A much larger percentage of students who do have jobs are not working anywhere near biglaw, they are doing public interest or whatever small to mid-size firm work they could convince to take them. If you do come to a mid to low t14 and end up in the middle or lower half of your class, you will likely be hunting for a public interest job or scrounging for some other form of work. Even if you are lucky enough to be in the top 25%, the biglaw job or clerkship is still not a done deal (and don't interpret "not a done deal" to simply mean that if you put in a little bit of extra work you can get it, I mean "not a done deal" as in, you will still only get the job if luck works in your favor). I'm happy to be at the school I'm at and I have a fairly nice scholarship to lighten the load, but if I were a 0L in your shoes, I'd seriously consider the kind of debt you're about to take on and whether it is worth the investment. I'd also really consider all the t20-t35 schools you can attend for free or very little.

Its posts like this from people in the actual situation that make me happy I'm going with BU for about 20K over Cornell with 100K in debt.

Yeah, it's much better to be certain you won't have a chance at getting a big firm job

If your goal is to work in a law firm, that 80K is going to be small fucking potatoes if you get shut out from BU at a rank where you would have had a chance from Cornell (and schools outside of the top 14 are seeing MUCH greater reduction in big firm hiring these days).

As a caveat wesleybs: While grades matter a lot, I'd say 60%+ of the class at most T14s are in a position to fight for a big firm job. Smart bidding, ties, personality, and softs can carry even a slightly below median into a firm job, even ITE. The thing is a lot of people were getting either 1 or 0 offers - and at that point the career outlook is miles apart, but the actually success at OCI is very similar. But the median area still had a real chance - though maybe not better than a 50% chance - at getting a big firm job at my T14 this year.

100K seems like a lot to gamble on a coin flip of 50%. I'd much rather graduate debt free. Its not like a solid T-25 schools offers no shot at a big firm job (not that a big firm job is even what I necessarily intend to do, even if I have the opportunity), but I talked to a bunch of people coming out of BU this year who said that the top 3rd, while not all have big firm jobs, are doing relatively fine. Id rather take a really safe 1/3 bet (along with the various personal reasons I have to be in Boston), than a high priced 1/2 bet.

I find it humorous that earlier ITT you validated your decision because a previous poster said T10 LR people can't get jobs, but in this post you validate it because you feel top 1/3 at BU is fine.

I agree with disco_barred. Although there are dozens of great law schools, the Top 14 really offer the best chance for employment in BigLaw. And those opportunities are not limited exclusively to the top half of each class, but it probably differs a bit for each of the Top 14 law schools.
To the original poster, I don't think that luck has as much to do with first year law school grades as your original post suggests. Many first year law students have difficulty detaching themselves from the study & testing habits that brought them success in undergraduate school. The first year of law school is more about tearing down one's old habits of memorization & regurgitation in favor of teaching one to think independently in an analytic fashion than it is in learning the black letter law.
Another thread, now locked as of today, was started yesterday by a disheartened law student at "MVP" (although it was eventually revealed that the law school is Virginia) who did poorly on his first year exams. The student wrote that he had studied hard memorizing all the cases and rulings. Unfortunately I was unable to respond as the thread had been locked, but he clearly is missing the point of the first year of law school if he is involved in heavy memorization as preparation for first year law examinations.

I am so sick of this crap about grades being a "coin flip." Your odds of finishing in the top 50% is not 50%. Ugh. I can't stand this horrific cliche that has infected this site.

I suppose TTT-LS, for example, could have just as easily finished in the bottom 2% of his class.

Well, absent other factors, your chance of finishing in the top 50% is about 50%, but it is not a coin flip. Any number of factors could make you more (or less) likely to finish above the line.

.

What matters is your chances based on factors you can assess before entering law school, not in hindsight. I don't think there's much that will predict too much better than average, besides entering statistics significantly above the median (and even that correlation isn't terribly high).

Hitachi wrote:What matters is your chances based on factors you can assess before entering law school, not in hindsight. I don't think there's much that will predict too much better than average, besides entering statistics significantly above the median (and even that correlation isn't terribly high).

I disagree. While LSAT (this is for you, disco! ) and GPA can be an indicator, I really think people could sort of determine where they stand if they really take a hard look at themselves and their situation and, most importantly, come up with a realistic game plan that incorporates the "real way" to do well in law school. I'm not saying everyone is guaranteed top 10%, but I really do feel like about 80% of a class could realistically finish in the top 50% at least with enough effort and research. There are maybe 20%, and a lot higher percentage at lower ranked schools, that really have no chance of landing in the top 1/4 or so, but I don't think that applies to the rest of a class.

Example: Arrow admits that issue spotting, analyzing like a lawyer, etc. did not come naturally to him. He absolutely outworked everyone at his 1L school and outworked them intelligently by applying the principles he discovered through his research.

Now, if someone just goes to law school w/out researching how to take exams and how to prepare for exams the way you need to for law school and treats law school like an absolute cram and regurgitate fest, sure, they could finish anywhere from top 80% to top 10% and it may be luck that it comes naturally to them if they hit top 10%. However, without ever knowing Arrow's grades before hand and just observing him in some kind of omnipresent kind of way during his 1L year, I'm sure we all would have had him pegged for the top of the class even though his entry stats were average for his school.

This is a tangent, but am I the only one who immediately thinks "Penn" when someone talks about bad employment outcomes at a T10 (or particularly when they say MVP)?

beesknees wrote:I just couldn't bring myself to spend around $200k for a T10. That being said, we'll have to see if going to a T20 with $$ will turn out to be a good idea. Of course, my goal isn't necessarily to land biglaw in NYC, etc. I understand that that IS the goal for a lot of people on here, but when I honestly evaluated what I wanted to do with my law degree before I found TLS and got a little swept away in the "prestige" whoring, I found that the lower ranked school was probably a better fit.

I also couldn't find a HUGE statistical difference in placement in things like Article III clerkships and NLJ250 firm placement to justify the extra hundreds of dollars in monthly loan payments. People love to throw out numbers, like top 1/3 or top half with complete disregard to actual stats.

I encourage people to really be honest when thinking about what they actually want from law school and to look at real numbers and be discerning (ie actually consider whether a 3-5% increase in the top 250 firm placement is worth $100k more). But that's just my 2 cents. I won't have anything meaningful to share in this eternal debate for another 2 and half years or so.

Beesknees, to be fair, you're talking about Vandy, which, well, is the beesknees.

edit: what does "beesknees" mean? I've always thought it meant something good, like "cat's pajamas" or something like that.

soullesswonder wrote:This is a tangent, but am I the only one who immediately thinks "Penn" when someone talks about bad employment outcomes at a T10 (or particularly when they say MVP)?

Why?

lawschoollll wrote:

soullesswonder wrote:This is a tangent, but am I the only one who immediately thinks "Penn" when someone talks about bad employment outcomes at a T10 (or particularly when they say MVP)?

Why?

It just generally seems to be the weakest T10 school. Roughly comparable to M+V in private firm placement, but not even close in things like clerkships and alumni judges. Also lacks a regional outlet for its students. (Mich = Midwest, Virginia = South)

soullesswonder wrote:

lawschoollll wrote:

soullesswonder wrote:This is a tangent, but am I the only one who immediately thinks "Penn" when someone talks about bad employment outcomes at a T10 (or particularly when they say MVP)?

Why?

It just generally seems to be the weakest T10 school. Roughly comparable to M+V in private firm placement, but not even close in things like clerkships and alumni judges. Also lacks a regional outlet for its students. (Mich = Midwest, Virginia = South)

Let me guess...0L?

RVP11 wrote:

soullesswonder wrote:

lawschoollll wrote:

soullesswonder wrote:This is a tangent, but am I the only one who immediately thinks "Penn" when someone talks about bad employment outcomes at a T10 (or particularly when they say MVP)?

Why?

It just generally seems to be the weakest T10 school. Roughly comparable to M+V in private firm placement, but not even close in things like clerkships and alumni judges. Also lacks a regional outlet for its students. (Mich = Midwest, Virginia = South)

Let me guess...0L?

l0L

National Law Journal released a survey on February 22, 2010 regarding law school placement at the top 250 law firms in the country. Results showed that Virginia, Michigan & Penn came in at numbers 5,6 & 7 respectively.

1) Northwestern
2) Columbia
3) Stanford
4) Chicago
5) Virginia
6) Michigan
7) Penn
NYU
9) Berkeley
10) Duke
11) Harvard
12) Vanderbilt
13) Goergetown
14) Cornell
15) USC
16) Texas
17) UCLA
18) Yale
19) BC
20) BU
21) GWU
22) Fordham
23) Notre Dame
24) WashUStL

Penn did quite well with large firm placement.

dakatz wrote:Its posts like this from people in the actual situation that make me happy I'm going with BU for about 20K over Cornell with 100K in debt.

Except the Cornell student had at least an opportunity on his first day class fall semster, while the BU student had little opportunity at all (exaggeration, indeed, but still). You are paying for this opportunity.

Also, once you are in the T14, with the exception of HYSCC, opportunities for clerkships and biglaw are significantly more tied to your grades than the school itself.

soullesswonder wrote:

lawschoollll wrote:

soullesswonder wrote:This is a tangent, but am I the only one who immediately thinks "Penn" when someone talks about bad employment outcomes at a T10 (or particularly when they say MVP)?

Why?

It just generally seems to be the weakest T10 school. Roughly comparable to M+V in private firm placement, but not even close in things like clerkships and alumni judges. Also lacks a regional outlet for its students. (Mich = Midwest, Virginia = South)

I really think all 3 are equal and Penn has a much smaller class to get employed, which i think is an advantage. (only 250ish)