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I lot of NLJ 250 firms big law firms with offices in secondary markets report those numbers (by secondary, I mean like Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, etc.)gandhi10 wrote:being optimistic, if the economy stabilizes.... the schools who report 75,000-100,000 (GSU, Houston, miami,South Carolina.. basically t40-t80) median starting salaries in the private sector? what kind of firms are those at.... guessing not big law,and how fast do those salaries rise??
+1nealric wrote:75-100k salaries are extremely rare. If the school is reporting a 75k salary "median" the distribution probably looks something like this:
30k, 35k, 50k, 75k, 115k, 160k, 160k
Plus, due to the crappy statistics, those numbers are way over-inflated. A median student at a school that reports 75-100k starting salary can realistically expect to make 40k to start. ITE, they will have a hard time finding anything at all.
Ouch.Also, these attorneys tend to work approximately 65 hours a week.
you said "these attorneys" ... do you not work 65 hours a week or is that only for associates?Anonymous User wrote:I work at a law firm in Houston where the associates start out at about 75K. Almost all of them come from South Texas or U of H and there are about 20 lawyers total (partners and associates). I'm not sure as to how fast these salaries rise, but my guess would be about 5-7K/yr? Also, these attorneys tend to work approximately 65 hours a week.
Anonymous never said he/she was an attorney. Most likely not if he/she doesn't know what the salary progression is. (I'm only speculating because Anonymous might not see this thread again as it is not tracked for the individual user.)gandhi10 wrote:you said "these attorneys" ... do you not work 65 hours a week or is that only for associates?Anonymous User wrote:I work at a law firm in Houston where the associates start out at about 75K. Almost all of them come from South Texas or U of H and there are about 20 lawyers total (partners and associates). I'm not sure as to how fast these salaries rise, but my guess would be about 5-7K/yr? Also, these attorneys tend to work approximately 65 hours a week.
Not necessarily hours heavy, but low pay/hr. Also has a reputation for doing the associate sweatshop thing- meaning the partners won't necessarily work that hard but the associates will.I never got the impression that ID was an hours-heavy field of law but maybe it's different if you work for a really large company like All-State or GEICO when they have you in court all the time.
Why do you assume that average is less capable of manipulation?zreinhar wrote:Im probably the first georgia state troll ever, but their numbers arent median, theyre average, which is probably less statistic-manipulation, its also one of the only law school sites i have seen to report the mean of ALL graduates, and its a respectable 80k, which isnt bad for a 30k degree...
+1. The median is vastly less susceptible to outliers, especially as the data set increases in size. The issue with median is typically that std deviation isn't given, so you don't know if a median of $70 means most people got $80k or $160k.swheat wrote:Why do you assume that average is less capable of manipulation?zreinhar wrote:Im probably the first georgia state troll ever, but their numbers arent median, theyre average, which is probably less statistic-manipulation, its also one of the only law school sites i have seen to report the mean of ALL graduates, and its a respectable 80k, which isnt bad for a 30k degree...
160000
160000
125000
110000
90000
75000
50000
50000
50000
45000
40000
40000
40000
35000
The average for these 15 people is $76,500. Yet only 33% of the 15 made more than that average.
Action Jackson wrote:+1. The median is vastly less susceptible to outliers, especially as the data set increases in size. The issue with median is typically that std deviation isn't given, so you don't know if a median of $70 means most people got $80k or $160k.swheat wrote:Why do you assume that average is less capable of manipulation?zreinhar wrote:Im probably the first georgia state troll ever, but their numbers arent median, theyre average, which is probably less statistic-manipulation, its also one of the only law school sites i have seen to report the mean of ALL graduates, and its a respectable 80k, which isnt bad for a 30k degree...
160000
160000
125000
110000
90000
75000
50000
50000
50000
45000
40000
40000
40000
35000
The average for these 15 people is $76,500. Yet only 33% of the 15 made more than that average.
The thing is that schools send out salary surveys to recent grads. People who don't find jobs or who find crappy jobs don't usually respond to these surveys. Some schools report the survey response rate, but most do not.swester wrote:
The other big issue I have with the stats: Where are all the 0k's for those unemployed or in unpaid positions? That would sure skew an average, no? But I suppose I can see why schools would want to obscure that data...
Exactly. And this is what is troubling; when people rely on these statistics without doing any due diligence. At first glance, you might assume that it's pretty likely you'll be getting a job paying over $100,000/yr after graduation. In reality, it's a very, very tiny (and shrinking) percentage who will actually make those figures. And you can still bet that they'll be working their asses off to get those numbers (i.e. 80 hr weeks, meaning that the hourly pay is actually not all that spectacular).swheat wrote:The thing is that schools send out salary surveys to recent grads. People who don't find jobs or who find crappy jobs don't usually respond to these surveys. Some schools report the survey response rate, but most do not.swester wrote:
The other big issue I have with the stats: Where are all the 0k's for those unemployed or in unpaid positions? That would sure skew an average, no? But I suppose I can see why schools would want to obscure that data...
So when you see "median=85,000" or "average=80,000" that comes with a couple of caveats: 1st - it is likely that only ~50% or so of the graduating class even responded to the survey. If the response rate is unlisted, you can rest assured it was probably a very small %.
2nd- Salaries are broken down by employer type. The highest salaries are generally at private law firms. But only about 1/2 to 3/5 of each school's graduates find work with private law firms. So when you see something like "average salary for class of 2009 = $90,000" you should understand that this is quite likely to reflect the outcome for 1/2 of the class (response rate) reduced by 1/2 (the number of grads entering private law firms).
We simply don't know anything about the rest of the class from the data. It could be that they are doing very well. But chances are that they are not.
Salary stats for new lawyers are bogus, but don't forget that you have a higher salary ceiling as a lawyer than in most fields. As the poster above noted, even small firm lawyers often get raises of $5,000 to $7,500 per year. I worked for 2 years in an IT company and didn't get a single raise at all.swester wrote: Exactly. And this is what is troubling; when people rely on these statistics without doing any due diligence. At first glance, you might assume that it's pretty likely you'll be getting a job paying over $100,000/yr after graduation. In reality, it's a very, very tiny (and shrinking) percentage who will actually make those figures. And you can still bet that they'll be working their asses off to get those numbers (i.e. 80 hr weeks, meaning that the hourly pay is actually not all that spectacular).
This held true even years ago. The difference now is that there are countless attorneys who do have the practical skills, but have been laid off or deferred. And when the turnaround comes, I just can't imagine employers digging deep into the ranks of new grads when they have such a huge oversupply of experienced J.D's to choose from. But who knows.swheat wrote:Salary stats for new lawyers are bogus, but don't forget that you have a higher salary ceiling as a lawyer than in most fields. As the poster above noted, even small firm lawyers often get raises of $5,000 to $7,500 per year. I worked for 2 years in an IT company and didn't get a single raise at all.swester wrote: Exactly. And this is what is troubling; when people rely on these statistics without doing any due diligence. At first glance, you might assume that it's pretty likely you'll be getting a job paying over $100,000/yr after graduation. In reality, it's a very, very tiny (and shrinking) percentage who will actually make those figures. And you can still bet that they'll be working their asses off to get those numbers (i.e. 80 hr weeks, meaning that the hourly pay is actually not all that spectacular).
Young lawyers are not worth much. It takes 2-3 years to build the practical skills necessary to do the job effectively.
gandhi10 wrote:you said "these attorneys" ... do you not work 65 hours a week or is that only for associates?Anonymous User wrote:I work at a law firm in Houston where the associates start out at about 75K. Almost all of them come from South Texas or U of H and there are about 20 lawyers total (partners and associates). I'm not sure as to how fast these salaries rise, but my guess would be about 5-7K/yr? Also, these attorneys tend to work approximately 65 hours a week.
nealric wrote:
I'll try to inquire about the pay at my firm tomorrow (I'm a 0L, not an attorney... I just like the anonymous feature), but from what I've gathered, I'm pretty sure I'm correct about the starting salary. And as for the hours, it's probably closer to 60.
Also worth to note, some of the associates are also directors and they make a good amount more (again I'll try to find out more tomorrow). And these lawyers typically work from home two times a week, ESPECIALLY the partners... they only come into the office one or two times a week! Lastly, the firm is pretty laid back. The attorneys are alway just hanging around and only rarely do their lives appear to be truly smothered by their work load.