New NALP numbers updated today Forum

[krogers]

didnt think it was a function of time. always thought W&C=Williams and Connolly. no one cares about white and case enough to abbreviate their name hahaha

[BradyToMoss]

Given my market preferences I only looked at Los Angeles. Some of the major firms:

Gibson (42) 2009 SAs, (27) 2010 SAs
Irell (33) 2009 SAs, (36!) 2010 SAs
Quinn (41) 2009 SAs, (26) 2010 SAs (Firm wide, no LA-only data available)
Munger (20) 2009 SAs, (15) 2010 SAs
Skadden (27) 2009 SAs, (07) 2010 SAs
Latham (37) 2009 SAs, (20) 2010 SAs
P. Hastings (27) 2009 SAs, (13) 2010 SAs
Jones Day (10) 2009 SAs, (6) 2010 SAs
Sidley Austin (19) 2009 SAs, (4) 2010 SAs
O'Melveny (25) 2009 SAs, (11) 2010 SAs

Totals: (281) 2009 SAs, (165) 2010 SAs

Does not seem to be as terrible as other posters described Chicago, but certainly not good news. Roughly 55% of the SA spots in LA this year as last.

What was the % drop from the 2008 SA class (that OCI'd in fall 2007) to this year?

Not too many more SA offers in 2008 (297 in 2008 instead of 281 in 2009). Certainly, the 2009 SA offers didn't result in nearly as many permanent offers in comparison with 2008.

[270910]

You're thinking of the wrong W&C. why do people keep doing that here?

NYC bias?

Because one has about 200 lawyers and was founded in 1967, while the other has over 2000 lawyers and was founded in 1901. There's only one W&C, so if you mean Williams & Connolly you're going to have to say so.

http://www.wc.com/

There IS only one W&C, you just picked the wrong one

[krogers]

hahahahahahhahaa pwn

[TTT-LS]

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[dbt]

can we make a list of safe firms by city given these new numbers? and by we i mean we, not me

[TTT-LS]

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[dbt]

can we make a list of safe firms by city given these new numbers? and by we i mean we, not me

I can't blame you for wanting such a list, but I do think that there are some issues with applicability. What I mean is that firms that seem safe based on the 2008, 2009, 2010 NALP data may not in fact be "safe" as far as Fall 2010 OCI goes. And, more importantly, some firms that seem quite unsafe based on the new NALP data may in fact be safe for those purposes because they've done all of the layoffs/downsizing/no-offering they need to in order to right-size their head count.

If anything, the new NALP data is probably most useful to the current 1L class as far as determining how many people firms are likely to hire this fall. 1Ls may also want to use the new data to determine which market(s) to bid on, as some (Chicago and Philadelphia, for instance) have been harder hit than others (such as DC, which has done relatively well).

tyft will take into account

[Renzo]

http://www.wc.com/

There IS only one W&C, you just picked the wrong one

I was going to reply to this, but I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I tried. Please, someone try and quote that post. Tell me this is an april fool's joke, and I haven't been oblivious to that all along.

Edit: added because I'm feeling contentious right now, and don't have the good sense to let things go.

W&C gets poached
Eight partners leave W&C
Another example
And one more

W&C is White and Case. http://www.wc.com is a convenient url, and not a good example of common usage of a term

[TTT-LS]

,

[krogers]

Exactly. My experience last summer at one of the firms on your safe list above was quite enjoyable and very low-stress compared with my friends experiences, at, for instance, Skadden or Kirkland.

Interesting that you drew that comparison. my friends at skadden and kirkland seemed quite satisfied and enjoyed their experiences there. of course, this was for new york (and chicago). i guess tensions were a bit higher in the CA offices, but id be tense at any CA firm ITE unless it's mto or irell.

[Renzo]

W&C is White and Case.

There are references using that term for the other firm by those letters all over the Internet.

Ok, I showed you mine, you show me ours. Find me some major law-related news source, blog, etc. using W&C to mean something other than White & Case.

And here on T-L-S, where there's so much discussion of "elite" firms, the bias is clearly in favor of using an ambiguous term ("W&C") to have a specific meaning ("Williams & Connolly").

Funny, I would think that the bias would be towards using for the 6th highest grossing firm in the US, that employs more than 10x the number of lawyers that Williams & Connely does, and has been around for over 100 years, over the boutique that doesn't make any of the AmLaw 100 lists.

Edit: I realize I'm being overly tendentious, and I'm a tiny bit sorry (I told you I was in that kind of mood). I also realize they are both V20 firms, and both get referred to by their initials. But I stand by my position that the mainstream discourse takes W&C to mean White & Case, as evidenced by the above links. Now, at the rate White is falling apart, no one will have heard of them in 10 years, so then it will be unambiguous.

[NYU2011]

My top 3 choices for firms (which I did not get offers at) hired a total of 9 SAs combined. Wow.

[Anonymous User]

Given my market preferences I only looked at Los Angeles. Some of the major firms:

Gibson (42) 2009 SAs, (27) 2010 SAs
Irell (33) 2009 SAs, (36!) 2010 SAs
Quinn (41) 2009 SAs, (26) 2010 SAs (Firm wide, no LA-only data available)
Munger (20) 2009 SAs, (15) 2010 SAs
Skadden (27) 2009 SAs, (07) 2010 SAs
Latham (37) 2009 SAs, (20) 2010 SAs
P. Hastings (27) 2009 SAs, (13) 2010 SAs
Jones Day (10) 2009 SAs, (6) 2010 SAs
Sidley Austin (19) 2009 SAs, (4) 2010 SAs
O'Melveny (25) 2009 SAs, (11) 2010 SAs

Totals: (281) 2009 SAs, (165) 2010 SAs

Does not seem to be as terrible as other posters described Chicago, but certainly not good news. Roughly 55% of the SA spots in LA this year as last.

Enrollment at some places may be higher than was originally intended. Suppose you're a firm, and you're in pretty good financial shape. You want to hire the same number of people for summer 2010 as you had in summer 2009, maybe slightly fewer considering the economy. How many offers do you hand out to reach this number? Well, that is dependent on a number of factors, including 1) how your firm is perceived by law students relative to other firms, which can change quickly in today's economy, and 2) how many other offers the students you offer have to choose between. If a firm miscalculates either one of these, it can result in over-enrollment.

The take home is that high enrollment may not be a sign of strength. In fact, it may be a cause of weakness down the road.

[Action Jackson]

What do you guys think about the backlog of unemployed JDs, though? Are those people forever SOL or are do you think they're going to be competing for slots when jobs start to open up?

[270910]

What do you guys think about the backlog of unemployed JDs, though? Are those people forever SOL or are do you think they're going to be competing for slots when jobs start to open up?

They're forever SoL with respect to big law. Big firms basically only hire for 2L summer, after clerkships, and laterals from comparable firms. Some have speculated that might change ITE, but there has been no evidence of it.

Still, there are lots of legal jobs, and people will find something. And it's true that like 70%+ are out of biglaw after a handful of years, so in the long run the biggest impact will be difficulty in paying down debt quickly.

[Aeroplane]

What do you guys think about the backlog of unemployed JDs, though? Are those people forever SOL or are do you think they're going to be competing for slots when jobs start to open up?

They're forever SoL with respect to big law. Big firms basically only hire for 2L summer, after clerkships, and laterals from comparable firms. Some have speculated that might change when you're 16 and pregnant, but there has been no evidence of it.

Still, there are lots of legal jobs, and people will find something. And it's true that like 70%+ are out of biglaw after a handful of years, so in the long run the biggest impact will be difficulty in paying down debt quickly.

I won't speak for anywhere else, but in my area it's not uncommon for big firms to hire experienced people from plaintiff's firms to do defense. I don't think it's the kind of thing you can count on happening ahead of time though, there's no real structured process that I know of for it.

[rando]

What do you guys think about the backlog of unemployed JDs, though? Are those people forever SOL or are do you think they're going to be competing for slots when jobs start to open up?

They're forever SoL with respect to big law. Big firms basically only hire for 2L summer, after clerkships, and laterals from comparable firms. Some have speculated that might change when you're 16 and pregnant, but there has been no evidence of it.

Still, there are lots of legal jobs, and people will find something. And it's true that like 70%+ are out of biglaw after a handful of years, so in the long run the biggest impact will be difficulty in paying down debt quickly.

There are a few firms that are hiring 3L's. I imagine this is more networking/nepotism/whatever than traditional pipeline. Probably a lot of no-offer 2L SA's.

[krogers]

unny, I would think that the bias would be towards using for the 6th highest grossing firm in the US, that employs more than 10x the number of lawyers that Williams & Connely does, and has been around for over 100 years, over the boutique that doesn't make any of the AmLaw 100 lists.

Edit: I realize I'm being overly tendentious, and I'm a tiny bit sorry (I told you I was in that kind of mood). I also realize they are both V20 firms, and both get referred to by their initials. But I stand by my position that the mainstream discourse takes W&C to mean White & Case, as evidenced by the above links. Now, at the rate White is falling apart, no one will have heard of them in 10 years, so then it will be unambiguous.

honestly, who gives a shit? i was wrong, you were right. happy now?

[270910]

What do you guys think about the backlog of unemployed JDs, though? Are those people forever SOL or are do you think they're going to be competing for slots when jobs start to open up?

They're forever SoL with respect to big law. Big firms basically only hire for 2L summer, after clerkships, and laterals from comparable firms. Some have speculated that might change when you're 16 and pregnant, but there has been no evidence of it.

Still, there are lots of legal jobs, and people will find something. And it's true that like 70%+ are out of biglaw after a handful of years, so in the long run the biggest impact will be difficulty in paying down debt quickly.

There are a few firms that are hiring 3L's. I imagine this is more networking/nepotism/whatever than traditional pipeline. Probably a lot of no-offer 2L SA's.

I think last year like 10 big firms hired 3Ls at all. That being said, it's important not to give up. I know somebody who lateraled into biglaw from non-big-law, and at least a dozen people had to have gotten something at 3L OCI.

Enough to count on or consider a realistic option? no way. But if you're one of those people, does it really matter? All you need is that one 'yes' to be golden.

[Renzo]

Funny, I would think that the bias would be towards using for the 6th highest grossing firm in the US, that employs more than 10x the number of lawyers that Williams & Connely does, and has been around for over 100 years, over the boutique that doesn't make any of the AmLaw 100 lists.

Edit: I realize I'm being overly tendentious, and I'm a tiny bit sorry (I told you I was in that kind of mood). I also realize they are both V20 firms, and both get referred to by their initials. But I stand by my position that the mainstream discourse takes W&C to mean White & Case, as evidenced by the above links. Now, at the rate White is falling apart, no one will have heard of them in 10 years, so then it will be unambiguous.

honestly, who gives a shit? i was wrong, you were right. happy now?

Don't be so sensitive, I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you personally. No one gives a shit, and I already acknowledged that in my above post. It was just too hard not to argue when people kept piling in on your side.

[Renzo]

What do you guys think about the backlog of unemployed JDs, though? Are those people forever SOL or are do you think they're going to be competing for slots when jobs start to open up?

They're forever SoL with respect to big law. Big firms basically only hire for 2L summer, after clerkships, and laterals from comparable firms. Some have speculated that might change when you're 16 and pregnant, but there has been no evidence of it.

Still, there are lots of legal jobs, and people will find something. And it's true that like 70%+ are out of biglaw after a handful of years, so in the long run the biggest impact will be difficulty in paying down debt quickly.

I quoted this to make some comment in agreement, and link this article...

But I got distracted by "when you're 16 and pregnant"

Did you write that , or is this more April foolery?

[270910]

What do you guys think about the backlog of unemployed JDs, though? Are those people forever SOL or are do you think they're going to be competing for slots when jobs start to open up?

They're forever SoL with respect to big law. Big firms basically only hire for 2L summer, after clerkships, and laterals from comparable firms. Some have speculated that might change when you're 16 and pregnant, but there has been no evidence of it.

Still, there are lots of legal jobs, and people will find something. And it's true that like 70%+ are out of biglaw after a handful of years, so in the long run the biggest impact will be difficulty in paying down debt quickly.

I quoted this to make some comment in agreement, and link this article...

But I got distracted by "when you're 16 and pregnant"

Did you write that , or is this more April foolery?

i.t.e. = ite

[Renzo]

What do you guys think about the backlog of unemployed JDs, though? Are those people forever SOL or are do you think they're going to be competing for slots when jobs start to open up?

They're forever SoL with respect to big law. Big firms basically only hire for 2L summer, after clerkships, and laterals from comparable firms. Some have speculated that might change when you're 16 and pregnant, but there has been no evidence of it.

Still, there are lots of legal jobs, and people will find something. And it's true that like 70%+ are out of biglaw after a handful of years, so in the long run the biggest impact will be difficulty in paying down debt quickly.

I quoted this to make some comment in agreement, and link this article...

But I got distracted by "when you're 16 and pregnant"

Did you write that , or is this more April foolery?

i.t.e. = when you're 16 and pregnant

Nice.

[WandaXavierYvette]

Not to suggest that Williams & Connolly isn't safe, but their SA numbers dropped from 37 last year to 21 this year. I don't think that's "not that much" considering their relatively small size.