New NALP numbers updated today Forum

[270910]

Not to suggest that Williams & Connolly isn't safe, but their SA numbers dropped from 37 last year to 21 this year. I don't think that's "not that much" considering their relatively small size.

Good point. I don't think there's any chance of the firm going belly up, but it highlights that even the best-of-the-best saw work drop off last year.

[krogers]

also, while covington might be the "safest," it's also the least lucrative of the top firms, imo. there is a reason their DC office still has a salary freeze. the work they do, though plentiful and something for which they are especially talented, is not nearly as lucrative as the finance and litigation practices that undergird major nyc firms. while covington ny is a nice, small group to be in, its ny presence is a joke.

in terms of chances of getting laid off, covington gets a gold star for "that aint happening." that is really important, i agree, but there are other similarly safe firms with more profitable practices.

[krogers]

Not to suggest that Williams & Connolly isn't safe, but their SA numbers dropped from 37 last year to 21 this year. I don't think that's "not that much" considering their relatively small size.

fair point.

i think its worth pointing out that some drops are not simply because of a reduction in hiring. some firms simply didnt get as much yield as they though they would (dunno if this applies to williams and connolly) and they didnt bother calling back more in order to fill their spots (like skadden and latham and cadwalader and some others did).

[Anonymous User]

Link to updated numbers?

[270910]

Link to updated numbers?

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/

Look up any firm, and the '2010 projected' 2L summer classes are the data most frequently being discussed ITT.

[Anonymous User]

Thanks.

[rando]

Not to suggest that Williams & Connolly isn't safe, but their SA numbers dropped from 37 last year to 21 this year. I don't think that's "not that much" considering their relatively small size.

fair point.

i think its worth pointing out that some drops are not simply because of a reduction in hiring. some firms simply didnt get as much yield as they though they would (dunno if this applies to williams and connolly) and they didnt bother calling back more in order to fill their spots (like skadden and latham and cadwalader and some others did).

There is no particular reason why they would have been unable to properly estimate their yield this year compared to others. The fact they didn't make additional call backs is a reduction in hiring.

[twistedwrister]

On autoadmit, someone posted the following list showing the changes in firm headcount between 2/1/2009 and 2/1/2010. Pretty interesting.

2009 data taken from an older thread and ATL, 2010 data taken from new NALP data.

VAULT. OFFICE (CITY): FEB 1, 2009 to FEB 1, 2010, TOTAL CHANGE, % CHANGE


1. Wachtell (New York): 127 to 135, +8, +6%


2. Cravath (New York): 355 to 364, +9, +3%


3. Skadden (New York): 642 to 489, -153, -24%


4. S&C (New York): ? to 545, -, -


5. DPW (New York): 442 to 572, +130, +23%


6. Weil (New York): 500 to 688, +188, +18%


7. STB (New York): 510 to 672, +162, +24%


8. Cleary (New York): 336 to 399, +63, +16%


9. Covington (DC): 227 to 251, +24, +10%


10. Kirkland (Chicago): 384 to 332, -52, -16%


11. W&C (DC): 119 to 131, +12, +9%


12. Debevoise (New York): 379 to 384, +5, +1%


13. Paul Weiss (New York): 376 to 396, +20, +5%


14. GDC (LA): - to 706, -, 0


15. Sidley (Chicago): 310 to 268, -42, -16%


16. WilmerHale (DC): 256 to 221, -35, -16%


17. Latham (LA): 221 to 164, -57, -26%


18. A&P (DC/McLean): 246 to 236, -10, -4%


19. Jones Day (DC): 108 to 108, 0, 0%


20. White & Case (New York): 317 to 226, -91, -29%


21. Shearman (New York): 357 to 240, -117, -33%


22. OMM (LA): 152 to 144, -8, -5%


23. Quinn Emanuel (all): - to 247, -, -


24. Ropes (Boston): 353 to 348, -5, -1%


25. Hogan (DC): 281 to 230, -51, -18%

[270910]

That list is of extremely limited utility without the 2008 numbers. Some firms made big cuts '08 - '09, so seeing a raise or a small cut '09 - '10 masks the cut.

It's too bad they only post 3 years of data, otherwise we could see exactly what the bubble is. Maybe firms are less 'cutting' and more 'getting back to business as usual'?

[WandaXavierYvette]

I'm confused by these numbers. 2010 headcount for DC offices (DC/McLean for A&P), e.g., Covington = 503, Arnold & Porter = 452, WilmerHale = 416. Am I missing something? Are those numbers only counting partners or associates?

Edit: Oh, I think it's just associates. Got it.

[98234872348]

I'm confused by these numbers. 2010 headcount for DC offices (DC/McLean for A&P), e.g., Covington = 503, Arnold & Porter = 452, WilmerHale = 416. Am I missing something? Are those numbers only counting partners or associates?

Edit: Oh, I think it's just associates. Got it.

It's the number of summer associates hired by the firm, this has nothing to do with the amount of attorneys working at the respective firms.

[Renzo]

I'm confused by these numbers. 2010 headcount for DC offices (DC/McLean for A&P), e.g., Covington = 503, Arnold & Porter = 452, WilmerHale = 416. Am I missing something? Are those numbers only counting partners or associates?

Edit: Oh, I think it's just associates. Got it.

It's the number of summer associates hired by the firm, this has nothing to do with the amount of attorneys working at the respective firms.

Nevermind, I was confused....

[98234872348]

.

[Renzo]

I'm confused by these numbers. 2010 headcount for DC offices (DC/McLean for A&P), e.g., Covington = 503, Arnold & Porter = 452, WilmerHale = 416. Am I missing something? Are those numbers only counting partners or associates?

Edit: Oh, I think it's just associates. Got it.

It's the number of summer associates hired by the firm, this has nothing to do with the amount of attorneys working at the respective firms.

I think you are both confused. No firm hires 500 summer associates, and the headcount counts all lawyers in the office. There is a breakdown table for every office in the NALP directory that tells you who is in that total headcount number. As an example, Covington's DC office has 138 partners, 251 associates, 85 of counsel, 29 staff attorneys. And 54 summer associates, which don't count in the "total"

I was referring to the NALP data being discussed, not the numbers referenced by Wanda, bro.

Yeah, I figured that out, but you snuck in before my edit.

[krogers]

There is no particular reason why they would have been unable to properly estimate their yield this year compared to others. The fact they didn't make additional call backs is a reduction in hiring.

I hope you're kidding...

This year was crazy in terms of hiring on both sides of the fence. Every firm had a particular goal for their summer program, and it's incredibly difficult to meet that target, especially in this economy. There's always the risk of under-hiring and over-hiring. The fact that Skadden was continuing to recruit into November shows that they didn't handle the recruiting process as well as their "peer" firms did. The fact is that the students they called in in November were probably less "talented" than the people they rejected in September, when they were super-selective.

My firm did things a little weirdly this year too.

[itsmytime10]

Jones Day is doing EXTREMELY well. They're paying $13,333/week to their summer associates in NY!
--LinkRemoved--

Edit: No way to link to the page, but just look it up on nalp.

NO WAY that number is correct.. I am sure it is $13,333 a month which is abt $3100 a week.

[itsmytime10]

Jones Day is doing EXTREMELY well. They're paying $13,333/week to their summer associates in NY!
--LinkRemoved--

Edit: No way to link to the page, but just look it up on nalp.

NO WAY that number is correct.. I am sure it is $13,333 a month which is abt $3100 a week.

It is per Month according to their website.
http://www.jonesdaycareers.com/offices/ ... udentsTab6

[XxSpyKEx]

Jones Day is doing EXTREMELY well. They're paying $13,333/week to their summer associates in NY!
--LinkRemoved--

Edit: No way to link to the page, but just look it up on nalp.

NO WAY that number is correct.

Thank you captain obvious.

[krogers]

pretty sure Jones Day is paying 13,333/week for their SAs

at this point, im just sad they rejected my dumb ass.

[itsmytime10]

pretty sure Jones Day is paying 13,333/week for their SAs

at this point, im just sad they rejected my dumb ass.

they dont. Here is from their site

Summer Associate salary in New York is $13,333 monthly. A one-time stipend to assist with relocation expenses will be paid to summer associates at the beginning of the summer.

[XxSpyKEx]

pretty sure Jones Day is paying 13,333/week for their SAs

at this point, im just sad they rejected my dumb ass.

they dont. Here is from their site

Summer Associate salary in New York is $13,333 monthly. A one-time stipend to assist with relocation expenses will be paid to summer associates at the beginning of the summer.

itsmytime10 is lying! I heard from a reliable source that it's a weekly figure.

[krogers]

sorry itsmytime, gonna go with nalp here. it's 13,333k/week.

the economy is booming. NYC to 693k!!!!!

[XxSpyKEx]

sorry itsmytime, gonna go with nalp here. it's 13,333k/week.

the economy is booming. NYC to 693k!!!!!

Agreed completely. I heard all firms are going to be raising there weekly pay for first year associates to $13,333K /week or $693K /year!

[itsmytime10]

sorry itsmytime, gonna go with nalp here. it's 13,333k/week.

the economy is booming. NYC to 693k!!!!!

Agreed completely. I heard all firms are going to be raising there weekly pay for first year associates to $13,333K /week or $693K /year!

Good to know. I will be living the life in school then, with hopes of landing a $693k job. Leasing that BMW and paying with a GRAD PLUS loan now sounds like a good idea. Thank you very much for sharing this info with me.

[rando]

There is no particular reason why they would have been unable to properly estimate their yield this year compared to others. The fact they didn't make additional call backs is a reduction in hiring.

I hope you're kidding...

This year was crazy in terms of hiring on both sides of the fence. Every firm had a particular goal for their summer program, and it's incredibly difficult to meet that target, especially in this economy. There's always the risk of under-hiring and over-hiring. The fact that Skadden was continuing to recruit into November shows that they didn't handle the recruiting process as well as their "peer" firms did. The fact is that the students they called in in November were probably less "talented" than the people they rejected in September, when they were super-selective.

My firm did things a little weirdly this year too.

There are thousands of qualified applicants that would kill to have firm jobs and would pick up an offer from skadden et al. in a heartbeat. Whether they are as "talented" (i.e. gpa/school) as their September-hired brethren is not the issue. The fact hiring was crazy on both sides of the fence does not change the fact that this is unequivocally a law firm controlled market and they can get the numbers they want, if they want them.
If there was a bar to hiring after a certain date then I would agree with you. But there isn't. And thus, I don't. I am not kidding.