Top Law Schools

Read an interesting article today.

http://abajournal.com/news/article/summ ... -year_low/

http://www.abajournal.com/files/Perspec ... lRec09.pdf

Interesting - I thought this year was supposed to have been the upswing, but I guess not.

I read that article this morning.

It really drives home how bad things are/were: Fewer than 1/2 the summer associate positions from 2007 to the current class. For the class of 2010, 69% SA offer rate as opposed to over 90% before (with a 1/3 less SA positions).

10 out of 300 firms hired 3Ls. That's probably not more than 15-20 3Ls in the entire country getting biglaw offers.

I'm sorry but these stories are starting to bother me less and less. On here I hear things like "anyone outside of HYS is screwed" but in real life I've been meeting several people at schools like Emory, WUSTL, and Ga State who are landing great jobs. Six figure firm jobs may not be coming on a silver platter like they once were, but if you have good grades at a decent school and are willing to consider working somewhere other than NYC, DC, and California there are options.

Hiei wrote:I'm sorry but these stories are starting to bother me less and less. On here I hear things like "anyone outside of HYS is screwed" but in real life I've been meeting several people at schools like Emory, WUSTL, and Ga State who are landing great jobs. Six figure firm jobs may not be coming on a silver platter like they once were, but if you have good grades at a decent school and are willing to consider working somewhere other than NYC, DC, and California there are options.

Way to kill that strawman.

Hiei wrote:I'm sorry but these stories are starting to bother me less and less. On here I hear things like "anyone outside of HYS is screwed" but in real life I've been meeting several people at schools like Emory, WUSTL, and Ga State who are landing great jobs. Six figure firm jobs may not be coming on a silver platter like they once were, but if you have good grades at a decent school and are willing to consider working somewhere other than NYC, DC, and California there are options.

The above-bolded may be true, consider the amount of people that go into law school and are not at the top of their class. I'm not saying jobs are not available, just that the legal profession is contracting and that going into all this debt may not be the best idea.

Hiei wrote:I'm sorry but these stories are starting to bother me less and less. On here I hear things like "anyone outside of HYS is screwed" but in real life I've been meeting several people at schools like Emory, WUSTL, and Ga State who are landing great jobs. Six figure firm jobs may not be coming on a silver platter like they once were, but if you have good grades at a decent school and are willing to consider working somewhere other than NYC, DC, and California there are options.

Not at my school...

hth.

nycparalegal wrote:

Hiei wrote:I'm sorry but these stories are starting to bother me less and less. On here I hear things like "anyone outside of HYS is screwed" but in real life I've been meeting several people at schools like Emory, WUSTL, and Ga State who are landing great jobs. Six figure firm jobs may not be coming on a silver platter like they once were, but if you have good grades at a decent school and are willing to consider working somewhere other than NYC, DC, and California there are options.

The above-bolded may be true, consider the amount of people that go into law school and are not at the top of their class. I'm not saying jobs are not available, just that the legal profession is contracting and that going into all this debt may not be the best idea.

When I said good grades I didn't even mean top, I meant more like above median. And to be honest the idea that a 6 figure firm job is something that someone who is below the median is entitled to is a part of the country's problem right now. That last part is just opinion though.

These articles are making me think it might not be too bad to become a gunner.

Hiei wrote:And to be honest the idea that a 6 figure firm job is something that someone who is below the median is entitled to is a part of the country's problem right now. That last part is just opinion though.

On one hand, I really do want to agree with you-I feel like the law is one of the only (if not THE only) profession in which people with lackluster grades can complain about the lack of six figure jobs available and actually find sympathy from the majority of their peers. Booming economies in the past have led to law degree = 100k+ as a forgone conclusion.

So while I don't necessarily feel that everyone who has ever gone to law school deserves a prestigious biglaw job, I can understand that outrage or at least panic of finding out that the 200k in loans you thought you could pay off in several years may cripple you financially for the foreseeable future due to lack of job. Deserving or not, the fact of the matter is that people for the last two decades have gone into law school with the fairly accurate expectation of getting a great job when they graduate.

GATORTIM wrote:These articles are making me think it might not be too bad to become a gunner.

Dude, you can't just become a gunner. It's something you're born with, and I daresay that if you didn't come out of the womb with a howling wolf T-shirt and a hornbook trying to sue your doctor for a botched circumcision before he even cut the umbilical, it's probably too late for you brocephus.

All the more reason to not go into crazy debt ITE. Even people at top schools are wishing they hadn't taken out so much in loans, now that they are below median and don't have jobs.

has anybody consider that ITE is not a temporary condition, but rather the economy that has developed after decades of greed and we are stuck with? I believe that outsourcing and streamlining of workforces has left us with an economy that will be tough to rebuild.

Hiei wrote: When I said good grades I didn't even mean top, I meant more like above median. And to be honest the idea that a 6 figure firm job is something that someone who is below the median is entitled to is a part of the country's problem right now. That last part is just opinion though.

Please list the schools where you believe that getting merely "above median" is currently adequate to give a credible shot at a six-figure starting salary.

ScaredWorkedBored wrote:

Hiei wrote: When I said good grades I didn't even mean top, I meant more like above median. And to be honest the idea that a 6 figure firm job is something that someone who is below the median is entitled to is a part of the country's problem right now. That last part is just opinion though.

Please list the schools where you believe that getting merely "above median" is currently adequate to give a credible shot at a six-figure starting salary.

YHSCCN.

GATORTIM wrote:has anybody consider that ITE is not a temporary condition, but rather the economy that has developed after decades of greed and we are stuck with? I believe that outsourcing and streamlining of workforces has left us with an economy that will be tough to rebuild.

This seems reasonable, but every time the economy goes south people jump on this bandwagon (different reasons, same idea, the economy is permanently changing), and every time they are wrong.

Flanker1067 wrote:

GATORTIM wrote:has anybody consider that ITE is not a temporary condition, but rather the economy that has developed after decades of greed and we are stuck with? I believe that outsourcing and streamlining of workforces has left us with an economy that will be tough to rebuild.

This seems reasonable, but every time the economy goes south people jump on this bandwagon (different reasons, same idea, the economy is permanently changing), and every time they are wrong.

The exception in this case is that the gonzo $160K party bets people were making with law school were also based on a major economic distortion (that one being to the upside). If that's what you require for your choice in school/place in class rank to work by the time you do OCI in 1-2 years, you probably actually are permanently screwed.

AngryAvocado wrote:

GATORTIM wrote:These articles are making me think it might not be too bad to become a gunner.

Dude, you can't just become a gunner. It's something you're born with, and I daresay that if you didn't come out of the womb with a howling wolf T-shirt and a hornbook trying to sue your doctor for a botched circumcision before he even cut the umbilical, it's probably too late for you brocephus.

179

ScaredWorkedBored wrote:

Flanker1067 wrote:

GATORTIM wrote:has anybody consider that ITE is not a temporary condition, but rather the economy that has developed after decades of greed and we are stuck with? I believe that outsourcing and streamlining of workforces has left us with an economy that will be tough to rebuild.

This seems reasonable, but every time the economy goes south people jump on this bandwagon (different reasons, same idea, the economy is permanently changing), and every time they are wrong.

The exception in this case is that the gonzo $160K party bets people were making with law school were also based on a major economic distortion (that one being to the upside). If that's what you require for your choice in school/place in class rank to work by the time you do OCI in 1-2 years, you probably actually are permanently screwed.

I don't entirely understand what you are saying here. I think you are saying that people who are already 160K in debt and only now are learning that they can't find jobs are screwed. If this is right, then yes, you are right, some people will definately be in trouble. I don't see how this relates to what we were saying though, about the long term job prospects for law school graduates. I believe that anyone who says hiring will not return to (at least some version of) normal levels is jumping on the panic bandwagon and will, in all probability, be proven wrong.

And to be honest the idea that a 6 figure firm job is something that someone who is below the median is entitled to is a part of the country's problem right

I've never actually met someone who felt "entitled" to a 6 figure job (at least that they expressed to me). They are, however, upset when they can't find anything at all- which is increasingly the case. Part of the problem is that 6-figure jobs come at the beginning of 2L year, while small firm jobs often don't come until bar passage- so those who are left in the dust at OCI often spend two whole additional years looking for employment.

Seriously though: I've I had a dime for every time someone called law students entitled, I would be a very rich person. Frankly, I'm kind of nonplussed by the trend. What do you expect? Excitement about unemployment and crushing debt loads?

Hiei wrote: And to be honest the idea that a 6 figure firm job is something that someone who is below the median is entitled to is a part of the country's problem right now. That last part is just opinion though.

You do realize that people below median at top schools are usually there simply because there has to be a curve? It's not like these people are idiots or didn't do their work.

GATORTIM wrote:has anybody consider that ITE is not a temporary condition, but rather the economy that has developed after decades of greed and we are stuck with? I believe that outsourcing and streamlining of workforces has left us with an economy that will be tough to rebuild.

Because legal hiring is down by 50%, but the economy isn't 50% the size it used to be and the legal market isn't 50% of what it used to be. It won't be as great as it was but the think this will be the new normal is shortsighted.

The reason Class of 2011 OCI went so badly is that firms overhired in the class of 09 and 10 and instead of no offering them all, they differed them a year. This means a lot of class of 2010 grads will start working at the same time class of 2011 will. So instead of hiring 2011 grads, firms under hired. So I think 2012 will be better, and 2013 even better than that.

This is assuming the economy doesn't crash again. And even if it is better, it won't be nearly as good as 2006-7 was.

nealric wrote:
Seriously though: I've I had a dime for every time someone called law students entitled, I would be a very rich person. Frankly, I'm kind of nonplussed by the trend. What do you expect? Excitement about unemployment and crushing debt loads?

+1

it's easy to imagine hypothetical law students who are so entitled that they go into LS with the expectation of a great job without any hustle. It's easy b/c people tell themselves that they won't be that guy. Instead they'll hustle and work hard and end up fighting and scratching for a job. Problem is that most people go into law schools thinking this way and yet if there's only a 50% offer rate not everyone is getting a job.

Desert Fox wrote: This is assuming the economy doesn't crash again. And even if it is better, it won't be nearly as good as 2006-7 was.

It will be a minor uptick at best for class of 2012. Firms are very conservative about expanding especially if they're able to pack on the workload to their smaller associate classes.

legends159 wrote:

nealric wrote:
Seriously though: I've I had a dime for every time someone called law students entitled, I would be a very rich person. Frankly, I'm kind of nonplussed by the trend. What do you expect? Excitement about unemployment and crushing debt loads?

+1

it's easy to imagine hypothetical law students who are so entitled that they go into LS with the expectation of a great job without any hustle. It's easy b/c people tell themselves that they won't be that guy. Instead they'll hustle and work hard and end up fighting and scratching for a job. Problem is that most people go into law schools thinking this way and yet if there's only a 50% offer rate not everyone is getting a job.

If they're lucky enough to have a 50% offer rate at their school, they're probably not in nearly the world of hurt as the kids in the TTT paying the same tuition for a damn "snowball in hell" chance at 6 figures.